Giro Stage 4: Giovinazzo - Bari *Spoiler*

Pross

coriordan wrote:

I think I read somewhere that the oil from the olives makes it slicker when wet? Could be bollox tho.....

"the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 3h
Italian roads grippy in dry but big change in wet. Olive groves can make roads oily + rare rain means roads not washed, greasy film in rain"

Sounds plausible, it would make sense of that video clip and I can't imagine the Italians are that lax on road safety that they would provide a surface that was naturally that slick. It's much like you get in town centres after long dry spells when it rains and diesel from standing buses etc. gets washed across the road.

blazing_saddles

Pross wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Matthews:
"From the start it was really slippery. Straight away we had a chat in the bunch and decided to neutralise the race. It's a long tour and we all need to stay safe out there.
"It's totally different Ireland is a country where it always rains and the roads are used to the changing conditions. "

I wonder who 'we' are? From some of the posts on here it appears that not everyone was in agreement. Having not watched it it reminds me of that TdF stage in 2010 with Cancellara neutralising the stage to protect Andy.

Ironically, they didn't race the first seven laps, when the roads were dry, just the final one, which by half way around, was wet.
If they had, in all probability we wouldn't have had the pile ups.

Still, without the aid of a crystal ball, the bottom line is that city crits in Italy are a no no.
You would have thought the organisers would know this by now.

Macaloon

Pross wrote:

Are you that commissaire that booted Phinney out of the Tirreno-Adriatico last year?

A career highlight that. "Let Phaylor ride" - LOL GFY.

frenchfighter

above_the_cows

Last few kms here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rBlxKWLBWo

And footage of the Paolini barge amongst other diplomatic incidents: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVHSCLFnHcg

frenchfighter

So was Matthews/Orica wanting to ride or not wanting to?

Dick move there by Paolini. Italians...

fleshtuxedo

frenchfighter wrote:

So was Matthews/Orica wanting to ride or not wanting to?

Dick move there by Paolini. Italians...

You'd assume Matthews wanted in tranquilo so he can stay in pink. Yes a tw*tty bit of handbags from paolini. I perceived him to be a bigger man than that....

frenchfighter

Good comments from MM. He seems to have toned down since he first burst on the scene. Didnt initially realise it was due to the very slippery roads (another failure of Italians) and therefore the neutralisation was a good idea - I had assumed they were pissed with the rain.

MM says he is targetting Wed and Thurs stages. On paper they look like reasonably tough finales but he showed he is capable by finishing B Pijl in 2nd.

Pross

Having now seen those roads I can certainly see why that didn't race. What are the organisers doing? Surely there were other roads around there that are better than that or if not they need a different stage town.

thomthom

He might be wearing pink but Paolini has got no time for the weak, as seen in that highlight.

Great example of hierarchy in a peloton during a race. Happens all the time - your favorite riders do it as well.

hammerite

It's a tough one for the organisers. What do they do? I suppose not plan to finish a stage with 8 x 8k laps on a relatively twisty circuit is a start.

They had trouble with weather/conditions last year too. Do they decide not to visit certain parts of the country because the roads can be dodgy in certain conditions? Do they just use some of the long straight roads with no twists or turns? Do they move the race to a time of year when the weather *should* be more reliable?

Macaloon

hammerite wrote:

It's a tough one for the organisers. What do they do? I suppose not plan to finish a stage with 8 x 8k laps on a relatively twisty circuit is a start.

They had trouble with weather/conditions last year too. Do they decide not to visit certain parts of the country because the roads can be dodgy in certain conditions? Do they just use some of the long straight roads with no twists or turns? Do they move the race to a time of year when the weather *should* be more reliable?

Swap with the Vuelta which would gain profile by being the first GT, perhaps bagging a Quintana sometimes. The Giro would attract all of the top tour contenders. Piece of cake 8)

frenchfighter

Paolini has a beard and knows how to pull out of races. He also has cartoons on his helmet and is good friends with Pippoela Pozzato.

Anyone know if Paolini was looking to race when MM was asking not to? Or the other way round?
You would have thought that he would want to protect his GC leader in those conditions as well as not wanting to race as they have no sprinter. Ditto Ale Jet.

Crampeur

frenchfighter wrote:

Paolini has a beard and knows how to pull out of races. He also has cartoons on his helmet and is good friends with Pippoela Pozzato.

Anyone know if Paolini was looking to race when MM was asking not to? Or the other way round?
You would have thought that he would want to protect his GC leader in those conditions as well as not wanting to race as they have no sprinter. Ditto Ale Jet.

According to CN, the disagreement was because Orica got confused and thought the Peloton was going to stop on the line before the race finished, while it was actually just sprinters only after the last lap.

above_the_cows

Pross wrote:

Having now seen those roads I can certainly see why that didn't race. What are the organisers doing? Surely there were other roads around there that are better than that or if not they need a different stage town.

If they'd finished it they could have raced around the Bitonto ring road, the curve is so gradual that there would be no risk of coming off on a corner.

I am embarrassed to admit I have been to Bitonto yet never saw the ring road, we drove through the centre of town.

Macaloon

frenchfighter wrote:

Paolini has a beard and knows how to pull out of races. He also has cartoons on his helmet and is good friends with Pippoela Pozzato.

Anyone know if Paolini was looking to race when MM was asking not to? Or the other way round?
You would have thought that he would want to protect his GC leader in those conditions as well as not wanting to race as they have no sprinter. Ditto Ale Jet.

Nah. Energy shaving mode.

above_the_cows

frenchfighter wrote:

Paolini has a beard...

That's no way to refer to Mrs Paolini.

Sorry, sorry, I'll hit the Bitonto ring road now...

Arrivederci.

dolan_driver

Could there be consequences for Paolini and Katusha after his shoulder bump on the pink jersey today?

I'd imagine the Orica boys won't be happy with that little incident and perhaps Paolini can expect a Greenedge train on the front of the peloton whenever he tries to go up the road during this Giro.

DD.

P.S. He wouldn't have pulled that stunt on Hinault, that's for sure!

joelsim

Impressive by Bouhanni today. I like him, dangerous or not, he's good value.

Macaloon

Should be a good finish tomorrow. Puncheurs have to go early to drop to Swifty, Matthews etc. Might be worthwhile for Evans to create some chaos.

joelsim

Swifty says he's not up for this one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/27281510

hammerite

Above The Cows wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Paolini has a beard...

That's no way to refer to Mrs Paolini.

She's that Austrian singer isn't she?

knedlicky

coriordan wrote:

I think I read somewhere that the oil from the olives makes it slicker when wet? Could be bollox tho.....
"the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 3h
Italian roads grippy in dry but big change in wet. Olive groves can make roads oily + rare rain means roads not washed, greasy film in rain"

Pross wrote:

Having not seen the stage what exactly was the problem with the surface today then? I don't see how a standard road that gets used by traffic safely on a daily basis can be as dangerous as is being made out. I don't know about Italian highway engineering but over here a surface has to have a certain level of 'grip' depending on how fast and / or 'twisty' it is.

I didn’t see today’s stage, but I doubt the slippy roads were due to olive oil! Anyway it's not the olive harvest season. Also, April is one of the wettest months in southern Italy, so it wouldn’t be a case of ‘rare rain’.
It more likely had to do with the mixture in the asphalt top surface course and the road surface slopes, and the rain. A science in itself.

To make it simple, a greater amount of bitumen and a finer aggregate make for a smoother and more flexible surface - thus what one usually wants on a bike or jogging path.
Roads where winter ice is the greater problem will often have a middle amount of bitumen and a middle-fine/coarse aggregate in the top course, so a semi-smooth surface which (slopes permitting) doesn’t allow water to accumulate and turn to ice. This is the typical top surface in continental Europe (and which many UK cyclists will have savoured compared to common UK road surfaces). In heavy or continuous rain, however, acqua-planing can occur on these surfaces, if the slopes to the side aren’t adequate.

In the British Isles, where rain is more a problem than ice, the top course usually has quite a coarse aggregate, meaning for a cyclist a rougher and harder ride. However, this surface is ‘pants’ when there is ice, as water collects between the larger aggregate and freezes.

I’d guess the surfaces around the heel of Italy aren’t just semi-smooth (a la continental Europe), but more like jogging paths because not all bitumen comes from Trinidad (as traditionally believed) - there is a source in Sicily, so not that far from Bari, and conceivably the Bari area highway engineers may make ample use of local bitumen.

graeme_s-2

RichN95 wrote:

I'm quite amused at people who got annoyed at two boring sprint stages are now angry at not getting another boring sprint stage.

Makes me think of that line from Annie Hall "Boy, the food at this place is really terrible - Yeah, I know, and such small portions"

graeme_s-2

Above The Cows wrote:

I am embarrassed to admit I have been to Bitonto yet never saw the ring road, we drove through the centre of town.

Unless you drove in and out from the east, then you must have at least crossed the ring road, even if you didn't realise it at the time!

Pross

knedlicky wrote:

coriordan wrote:

I think I read somewhere that the oil from the olives makes it slicker when wet? Could be bollox tho.....
"the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 3h
Italian roads grippy in dry but big change in wet. Olive groves can make roads oily + rare rain means roads not washed, greasy film in rain"

Pross wrote:

Having not seen the stage what exactly was the problem with the surface today then? I don't see how a standard road that gets used by traffic safely on a daily basis can be as dangerous as is being made out. I don't know about Italian highway engineering but over here a surface has to have a certain level of 'grip' depending on how fast and / or 'twisty' it is.

I didn’t see today’s stage, but I doubt the slippy roads were due to olive oil! Anyway it's not the olive harvest season. Also, April is one of the wettest months in southern Italy, so it wouldn’t be a case of ‘rare rain’.
It more likely had to do with the mixture in the asphalt top surface course and the road surface slopes, and the rain. A science in itself.

To make it simple, a greater amount of bitumen and a finer aggregate make for a smoother and more flexible surface - thus what one usually wants on a bike or jogging path.
Roads where winter ice is the greater problem will often have a middle amount of bitumen and a middle-fine/coarse aggregate in the top course, so a semi-smooth surface which (slopes permitting) doesn’t allow water to accumulate and turn to ice. This is the typical top surface in continental Europe (and which many UK cyclists will have savoured compared to common UK road surfaces). In heavy or continuous rain, however, acqua-planing can occur on these surfaces, if the slopes to the side aren’t adequate.

In the British Isles, where rain is more a problem than ice, the top course usually has quite a coarse aggregate, meaning for a cyclist a rougher and harder ride. However, this surface is ‘pants’ when there is ice, as water collects between the larger aggregate and freezes.

I’d guess the surfaces around the heel of Italy aren’t just semi-smooth (a la continental Europe), but more like jogging paths because not all bitumen comes from Trinidad (as traditionally believed) - there is a source in Sicily, so not that far from Bari, and conceivably the Bari area highway engineers may make ample use of local bitumen.

I'm a highway engineer. Macro texture (i.e. the depth between the aggregate) does play a part in grip but at low speeds up to 40 or 50 mph it's negligible. Most of the grip comes from the friction generated by the aggregate itself (its polished stone value). Surfacing mixes vary - down there they will want something suited to high summer temperatures - but they should all achieve a suitable PSV as one of their key properties. However, what I saw of the road it looked highly polished which could be due to crap aggregate being made smooth by traffic or the bitumen coming to the surface possibly.

frenchfighter

Just learnt something reading those two posts, thanks.

--

above_the_cows

Graeme_S wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

I am embarrassed to admit I have been to Bitonto yet never saw the ring road, we drove through the centre of town.

Unless you drove in and out from the east, then you must have at least crossed the ring road, even if you didn't realise it at the time!

This is very true Graeme. What a relief!

frenchfighter

tailwindhome

Deignan's Giro Diary

When you hear 200 riders letting the air out of their tyres on the start line in order to get a bit of grip on the road surface, you know it’s going to be a nerve wracking day in the saddle.