J T-L

iainf72

The long and the short of it is

- Madiot was right. I think that irks me most of all
- Shane Sutton seemed to be right (I believe he was the nay-sayer for hiring him)
- Sky didn't do due diligence but then that's not exactly news. Covered by Walsh and things in place now
- No one beats a passport case

It's funny reading some of the articles written by people who are grumpy DB walked away from them today at the Tour. Fawning much?

Macaloon

andyp wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Also, I thought Sky did all that sort of analysis before signing anyone

They do now.

Well, we know that they now review the blood results from passport tests due to the Henao case. Not doing this prior to end 2013 (amazingly) led to them missing abnormal results from late 2012 and allowing JTL to ride for them for a year - not what you'd call attention to detail.

What I find most interesting is that as far as I can tell, the team have never talked about any internal test program. This suggests that they don't think additional testing is a deterrent, and the sponsor is happy with that. I suppose the argument is that if a rider is going to risk evading the WADA tests, it's a marginal additional cost to evade team tests.

For tanfoil hat wearers, of course, the lack of any mention of an internal test program is proof that it exists. How else could they beat the passport.

[BBC just trailed a "major drugs story in cycling" from 7:30. Assume this is it?]

jamie1012

argyllflyer wrote:

jamie1012 wrote:

He did ride under Brailsford during the period in question though (at the Worlds).

I somehow doubt SDB phoned up JTL and said "right Jon, we're riding for you as you were brilliant on the climbs in Tour of Britain, especially Caerphilly, the course is right up your alley and we have no one else suitable... just make sure you 'prepare' properly".

If he doped to win ToB (and those early European races he was called out for doing), and he was still doped for the Worlds, pinning that on DB is tenuous.

That's quite an extrapolation you've made from my post there.

All I am saying is that if Brailsford says that none of this happened on his watch and that there was nothing untoward with any tests his teams ever did with JTL, he didn't do enough due diligence.

Macaloon

iainf72 wrote:

It's funny reading some of the articles written by people who are grumpy DB walked away from them today at the Tour. Fawning much?

So Brailsford stiffed Shane "Mutant" Stokes mid-question? Good lad.

Jez mon

iainf72 wrote:

The long and the short of it is

- Madiot was right. I think that irks me most of all
- Shane Sutton seemed to be right (I believe he was the nay-sayer for hiring him)
- Sky didn't do due diligence but then that's not exactly news. Covered by Walsh and things in place now
- No one beats a passport case

It's funny reading some of the articles written by people who are grumpy DB walked away from them today at the Tour. Fawning much?

Can we actually pin sky for not doing due diligence...I thought JTL s values only became visibly dodgy after a year of blood passport values allowing for baselines to be established etc.

iainf72

Jez mon wrote:

Can we actually pin sky for not doing due diligence...I thought JTL s values only became visibly dodgy after a year of blood passport values allowing for baselines to be established etc.

Sort of, yes. They did no blood tests of their own, and DB wasn't aware that doubts were raised in France during the early part of the season. Not knowing that seems like they didn't look at all.

Jez mon

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Can we actually pin sky for not doing due diligence...I thought JTL s values only became visibly dodgy after a year of blood passport values allowing for baselines to be established etc.

Sort of, yes. They did no blood tests of their own, and DB wasn't aware that doubts were raised in France during the early part of the season. Not knowing that seems like they didn't look at all.

Would their own blood tests have uncovered the irregularities earlier?

As for doubts being raised, it's sort of concerning that sky are/where seemingly oblivious to so much of what goes on in pro cycling, but otoh if you look in the right places there are plenty of rumours about Froome.

sportvan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-U1jvmfLA (last 3 minutes)

Never again will will see such a display.

iainf72

Jez mon wrote:

Would their own blood tests have uncovered the irregularities earlier?

As for doubts being raised, it's sort of concerning that sky are/where seemingly oblivious to so much of what goes on in pro cycling, but otoh if you look in the right places there are plenty of rumours about Froome.

They might have seen something in blood tests. Might not have. Dunno.

But if you take Froome as an example, he was identified as BC as an enormous talent many years ago. Where as JTL sort of did really well in 2012 early season races, respected DS's made some noise about him and raised eyebrows.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Can we actually pin sky for not doing due diligence...I thought JTL s values only became visibly dodgy after a year of blood passport values allowing for baselines to be established etc.

Sort of, yes. They did no blood tests of their own, and DB wasn't aware that doubts were raised in France during the early part of the season. Not knowing that seems like they didn't look at all.

The problem with doubts being raised in France is that there are doubts being raised about anyone who wins a race these days. It like the little boy who cried wolf. (I want to start a rumour that Richie Porte has tested positive for the drug toblerone to see how far it gets)

Having said that, Brailsford's biggest fault is struggling to his and others' mistakes

RichN95.

OK. Here's the chronology according to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

JTL wins two early season races and is second in another. He does this clean.
Sky get him to one of their training camps in May and effectively is a Sky rider from now on. They put him on a doping program.
JTL gets fewer CQ Ranking points after this point than before, but still wins the Tour of Britain
Sky outbid other suitors at a premimum wage and he joins them for 2013
Sky stop his doping so he sucks and gets caught.


Alternatively, the unhatted theory:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

OK. Here's the chronology according to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

JTL wins two early season races and is second in another. He does this clean.
Sky get him to one of their training camps in May and effectively is a Sky rider from now on. They put him on a doping program.
JTL gets fewer CQ Ranking points after this point than before, but still wins the Tour of Britain
Sky outbid other suitors at a premimum wage and he joins them for 2013
Sky stop his doping so he sucks and gets caught.

Don't forget they didn't announce the Menchov ban ....so they didn't have to announce the JTL ban

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

Is it not more likely that he thought he'd be good enough or that Sky were doping too.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

Is it not more likely that he thought he'd be good enough or that Sky were doping too.

Maybe. Variations on a theme.

Turfle

RichN95 wrote:

OK. Here's the chronology according to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

JTL wins two early season races and is second in another. He does this clean.
Sky get him to one of their training camps in May and effectively is a Sky rider from now on. They put him on a doping program.
JTL gets fewer CQ Ranking points after this point than before, but still wins the Tour of Britain
Sky outbid other suitors at a premimum wage and he joins them for 2013
Sky stop his doping so he sucks and gets caught.


Alternatively, the unhatted theory:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

If it wasn't for that pesky bio passport Sky would still be reaping the benefits of having him finish in the 100s on every stage of every race. That's where their plan failed.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

Don't forget they didn't announce the Menchov ban ....so they didn't have to announce the JTL ban

I believe that after the Armstrong verdict, the expected way of announcing drug bans is for the head of the banning authority to embark a six month tour of the world's chat shows .

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Don't forget they didn't announce the Menchov ban ....so they didn't have to announce the JTL ban

I believe that after the Armstrong verdict, the expected way of announcing drug bans is for the head of the banning authority to embark a six month tour of the world's chat shows .

Iain wants chocolates.

mamba80

Once it was announced last year, predictable and very sad for his fans (and the sport in general) who have shown great faith in his riding ability.

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Don't forget they didn't announce the Menchov ban ....so they didn't have to announce the JTL ban

I believe that after the Armstrong verdict, the expected way of announcing drug bans is for the head of the banning authority to embark a six month tour of the world's chat shows .

Iain wants chocolates.

If he gets chocolates every time there's a doping ban, he's going to get diabetes.

ContrelaMontre

frenchfighter wrote:

@RussellHampton 3m
Shame John tienean locke only got his @TourofBritain title stripped off him. Only one year before i was second to him in the KOM Comp!
@RussellHampton 1m
But hey no point of being bitter about it right?!

What does Bertie have to say about the news?

lochindaal

From Walsh "Inside Sky" book he said JTL was tested by Garmin and because he passed their tests they took the results as good , sky never tested. They do their own testing now

Macaloon

"Team Sky's JTL suspended for two years for BP irregularities" - the state broadcaster loves it.

norvernrob

RichN95 wrote:

OK. Here's the chronology according to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

JTL wins two early season races and is second in another. He does this clean.
Sky get him to one of their training camps in May and effectively is a Sky rider from now on. They put him on a doping program.
JTL gets fewer CQ Ranking points after this point than before, but still wins the Tour of Britain
Sky outbid other suitors at a premimum wage and he joins them for 2013
Sky stop his doping so he sucks and gets caught.


Alternatively, the unhatted theory:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

Lol I really don't get why people sit on that forum for hour after hour, individuals making tens of thousands of posts, the vast majority of which are made up, pure speculation or downright lies. (Froome's TUE dose for the inhaler being 'horse steroids', repeated dozens of times when in fact it was the normal dose).

We all know there's doping in cycling and other sports, but everyone who ever wins anything? DB a doping mastermind? I don't get why anyone would waste so much of their life making up conspiracy theories.

FJS

NorvernRob wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

OK. Here's the chronology according to the Tin Foil Hat brigade.

JTL wins two early season races and is second in another. He does this clean.
Sky get him to one of their training camps in May and effectively is a Sky rider from now on. They put him on a doping program.
JTL gets fewer CQ Ranking points after this point than before, but still wins the Tour of Britain
Sky outbid other suitors at a premimum wage and he joins them for 2013
Sky stop his doping so he sucks and gets caught.


Alternatively, the unhatted theory:

He doped himself in 2012 with no bio passport and few tests to get a big contract then stopped at Sky and thought he'd get away with it and rid out two years of being crap on good money.

Lol I really don't get why people sit on that forum for hour after hour, individuals making tens of thousands of posts, the vast majority of which are made up, pure speculation or downright lies. (Froome's TUE dose for the inhaler being 'horse steroids', repeated dozens of times when in fact it was the normal dose).

We all know there's doping in cycling and other sports, but everyone who ever wins anything? DB a doping mastermind? I don't get why anyone would waste so much of their life making up conspiracy theories.

They're changing cycling, you know

andyp

Presumably all the forumites who got all uppity when some suggested his sudden improvement was worthy of scrutiny will be apologising shortly?

ContrelaMontre

andyp wrote:

Presumably all the forumites who got all uppity when some suggested his sudden improvement was worthy of scrutiny will be apologising shortly?

No, because one positive does not mean that we can decipher doping from performances.

mroli

mamba80 wrote:

Once it was announced last year, predictable and very sad for his fans (and the sport in general) who have shown great faith in his riding ability.

Me, I'm one of those. I'm VERY sad. He came to my attention riding for RCS (as was) and I loved his style - I loved the story, he seemed like an intelligent character, he had panache in buckets (that vid at Haut Vaur - no gloves, no glasses), he was an ex MDCC rider who rode in a beautiful part of the country. I thought his career showed progression, the wins he had weren't "shocking" given the time of the season and the people he was racing.

Just makes me sad that he was a cheat. Was hoping against all probability that he'd have been cleared.

Interestingly though - is his busting an indication that the peloton is a lot cleaner than it was? I mean in 2013 when his passport was "clear", he barely and rarely got round, in 2012 when it was "not clear", he bust asses. An indicator of what the juice can do for you as a rider, but also the fact that others aren't on it? (Trying to drag something positive from this).

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

Presumably all the forumites who got all uppity when some suggested his sudden improvement was worthy of scrutiny will be apologising shortly?

It depends how they did it. I personally defend riders as many people jump too easily on the doping bandwagon without considering other possibilities. I'm aware that big changes can happen naturally (when I was 14, I did athletics and went being my school's third choice for hurdles to being ranked no.9 in the country in the space of about six weeks)

iainf72

*chuckle*

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12836438&start=200#p17619789

joelsim

Jez mon wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

The long and the short of it is

- Madiot was right. I think that irks me most of all
- Shane Sutton seemed to be right (I believe he was the nay-sayer for hiring him)
- Sky didn't do due diligence but then that's not exactly news. Covered by Walsh and things in place now
- No one beats a passport case

It's funny reading some of the articles written by people who are grumpy DB walked away from them today at the Tour. Fawning much?

Can we actually pin sky for not doing due diligence...I thought JTL s values only became visibly dodgy after a year of blood passport values allowing for baselines to be established etc.

Sky have failed to do due diligence on many staff so far. Not surprising really, trying to find someone who has been clean over the last decade or two must cut the candidate list down by about 99%.