Scottish independence - The real issue

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  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    cambo wrote:
    Isn't the UK debt largely down to the banks? HBOS and RBS both having the word Scotland in the name must mean Scotland can take all the debts of the UK, we'll all be rich in England/Wales. Go for it!

    What happens to the curling medals at the winter olympics?
    Our debt is not down to the banks, no.

    Treasury has spent about £125billion on bailing out the banks. At times however the nation has been exposed to a sum over way over £1trillion as a result of underwriting various risk positions. It is unclear how much of that £125bn will be returned to the treasury as a result of the selling of Gov stake in banks, or how long that will take.

    Out national today debt stands at about £1.3trillion.

    'Britain' has effectively been in perpetual debt since the late 17th Century.
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    cambo wrote:
    Isn't the UK debt largely down to the banks? HBOS and RBS both having the word Scotland in the name must mean Scotland can take all the debts of the UK, we'll all be rich in England/Wales. Go for it!

    No, the debt is from government spending. However the debt situation worsened when the recession hit which meant tax revenues decreased but spending did not.
    What happens to the curling medals at the winter olympics?

    What medals? :D
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Daz555 wrote:
    'Britain' has effectively been in perpetual debt since the late 17th Century.

    As has most of the developed world. The ability of governments to spend more than they receive IIRC was an invention of the Dutch which enabled them to become a major international force at the time, when other countries relied directly on taxation being directly spent on the military. With the Dutch takeover of the UK by William & Catherine this was imported into the UK and helped us become a major world power.

    But debt for governments doesn't work quite like personal debt.
  • poah
    poah Posts: 3,369
    markhewitt1978 wrote:

    What medals? :D

    the men are at least going to get a silver
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    POAH wrote:
    markhewitt1978 wrote:

    What medals? :D

    the men are at least going to get a silver

    Which the athletes get to keep themselves. A bigger issue is the Great Britain team as obviously Scotland would wish to have it's own olympic team. Same issue applies to many sports, but not to football (in it's various codes) and several other field sports which have a tradition of seperate teams for each home nation.
  • mak3m
    mak3m Posts: 1,394
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    What medals? :D

    The Scots ladies just got bronze :)

    i would all 4 of them one at a time or all at once whichever they would prefer :wink:
  • Chunkers1980
    Chunkers1980 Posts: 8,035
    Only 2 poss 3 would actually get it. The 4th is a moose.
  • Thewaylander
    Thewaylander Posts: 8,594
    Chunkers1980 wrote:
    Only 2 poss 3 would actually get it. The 4th is a moose.

    just double bag the 4th one.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    Daz555 wrote:
    'Britain' has effectively been in perpetual debt since the late 17th Century.

    As has most of the developed world. The ability of governments to spend more than they receive IIRC was an invention of the Dutch
    Actually, I saw something with Michael "talks like an automated phone system" Portillo a while ago, which mentioned how it was the English that "invented" it.

    Another pet peeve of mine... How can ALL the bleedin countries be in debt? Surely if they all just got toghether and figured it out, then everyone would find they're in less debt than they thought.
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  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    Another pet peeve of mine... How can ALL the bleedin countries be in debt?

    Martians.
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  • Chunkers1980
    Chunkers1980 Posts: 8,035
    Indebt to people/business. No gold standard. Bonds and such like.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    Chunkers1980 wrote:
    Indebt to people/business. No gold standard. Bonds and such like.
    what I mean is, if America owes $5 to Bulgaria, and Bulgaria owes $6 to Canada, and Canada owes $5 to America, then the only real debt is Bulgaria owes $1 to Canada. The rest of it is insignificant.
    I'm sure it should be possible to figure this stuff out globally, and eliminate all the mess.
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    The deeper you dig you realise that money is just an illusion.
  • Thewaylander
    Thewaylander Posts: 8,594
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    Chunkers1980 wrote:
    Indebt to people/business. No gold standard. Bonds and such like.
    what I mean is, if America owes $5 to Bulgaria, and Bulgaria owes $6 to Canada, and Canada owes $5 to America, then the only real debt is Bulgaria owes $1 to Canada. The rest of it is insignificant.
    I'm sure it should be possible to figure this stuff out globally, and eliminate all the mess.

    Indeed, but they dont owe money to each other, they owe it through bonds and other pap to the private sector not other public sector plonkers :) so UK goverment owes private investors lots, and the investors trade the bonds which get higher and lower value per £ and so on.

    Can you imagine investor groups writing off all that debt?
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    A lot of private investments like pension schemes, and banks just wanting to put their money somewhere buy government bonds, they get a very small return from this but, it's the safest form of investment there is.
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    Thewaylander wrote:
    Can you imagine investor groups writing off all that debt?
    If it means wiping out their own debt too, yes, in a sane world. But, alas, we don't live in such a place.
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  • pesky_jones
    pesky_jones Posts: 2,890
    markhewitt1978 wrote:
    The deeper you dig you realise that money is just an illusion.

    Isn't the only alternative to a monetry based economy a resource based economy?
  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    Isn't it the same thing? i.e. Money is just a representation of resources?
  • pesky_jones
    pesky_jones Posts: 2,890
    Not in the modern world - maybe a couple of centuries ago when money was just a medium for resource. Money is alot more than that now.
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    YeehaaMcgee wrote:
    what I mean is, if America owes $5 to Bulgaria, and Bulgaria owes $6 to Canada, and Canada owes $5 to America, then the only real debt is Bulgaria owes $1 to Canada. The rest of it is insignificant.
    I'm sure it should be possible to figure this stuff out globally, and eliminate all the mess.

    You want a laugh- the UK owes £375bn pounds to the Bank of England, ie, itself. This is included in the national debt. We even pay interest on this! And in a nice wee trick, it gets shown as an expense to the taxpayer in the balance of books even though it doesn't really go anywhere.

    So far just sounds silly, but, in the independence debate you find that people quite reasonably expect scotland to take 8.4% of the national debt, including this BoE portion (though, point of fact, we're not actually obliged to take a penny of it) Yet don't seem to think Scotland should get 8.4% of the public debt "asset" that the BoE holds.
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  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    Pesky Jones wrote:
    Not in the modern world - maybe a couple of centuries ago when money was just a medium for resource. Money is alot more than that now.
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  • pesky_jones
    pesky_jones Posts: 2,890
    Did you draw that all by yourself?
  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    No, I can't colour inside the lines, and I always eat the crayons and pencil, so I get to tell the nurse what to draw and she draws it for me.
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  • cooldad
    cooldad Posts: 32,599
    Pesky Jones wrote:
    Did you draw that all by yourself?
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  • YeehaaMcgee
    YeehaaMcgee Posts: 5,740
    Hey, she's my nurse!
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  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    Interesting double page article on the subject in yesterday's Observer. The Observer is a mildly pro union paper but not rabidly pro like the Tory press so fairly well balanced.
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  • poah
    poah Posts: 3,369
    makes for a good read

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/we ... lands-oil/
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  • markhewitt1978
    markhewitt1978 Posts: 7,614
    POAH wrote:
    makes for a good read

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/we ... lands-oil/

    Hmm, Scotland isn't that far from County Durham, reckon it's worth moving? :D
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    POAH wrote:
    makes for a good read

    http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/we ... lands-oil/

    The oil chat over the last few days has been genius.
    "Only the UK can do the best for Scottish oil, here is a list of things we'll do that it totally needs"
    "Wait, things you'll do? Why haven't you done them already?"
    "Well, uh..."
    "So what you're saying is that the UK could be better for Scottish oil, if you could be bothered, but you're only raising it now because you're worried you're going to lose it"
    "Well, uh..."
    "So you're also admitting that you're currently mismanaging Scottish oil, by having failed to do these things which you say are essential"
    "Well, uh..."

    It's nice when the No campaign do the Yes campaign's work for them
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  • stubs
    stubs Posts: 5,001
    As I have said before if you guys vote for Independence fine I am not bothered. What I am bothered about is this obsession with oil, in the long term it wouldnt even be as big for Scotlands economy as Whisky yet its the only thing that seems to get talked about. If theres as much oil in the Arctic as the Russians seem to think and as much Shale gas in Siberia as they also seem to think then Scotlands Oil based economy could look a bit farked if the price per barrel takes a nose dive.

    For a debate as important as this you guys should be discussing more important issues than "Oil and we hate you English bastards". Anyway most of the Oil is the Orkneys and Shetlands what you going to do if they go for independence, after all they were Scottish for about as long as they have been British. They might ask for a Union with the motherland Norway :lol:
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