Scottish independence - The real issue

Briggo

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Briggo wrote:

Northwind wrote:

As it happens, without oil and gas the scottish economy ends up pretty similiar to how the UK economy is now- perhaps marginally lower on GDP but with substantially lower national debt and having had decades of extra money from oil and gas. Which we might have invested well like Norway (and unlike the UK), or we might have spent on useful things. Or possibly spunked it all on coke, hookers, and hundred foot high statues of Mel Gibson.

Marginally lower? Where do you get your facts from.

Salmondhasalltheanswers.com?

If Scotlands GDP would be marginally lower than the current UK GDP then why isn't our GDP double what it is... or are you referring to GDP % in relation to per head.

because

Briggo wrote:

without oil and gas...

I still don't don't understand why Scotland is set to have an economy based on gas and oil companies which aren't Scottish ones. Since it's taken this long, and all it's led to is an argument how national boundaries do not extend into the oceans, I'm going to go ahead and conclude that most of yous, like the politicians on both sides, are talking shite.

Alright, fair game I missed that point.

However it's not total GDP that would be marginally lower, its GDP per head thats similar. So overall the GDP would be much less, but based on number of persons it levels out.

I think if Scotland wants it's fair share of everything upon independence then it should also take their fair share of unwanted illegal immigrants, scroungers and Katie Price.

YeehaaMcgee

come back when you're sober.

Briggo

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

come back when you're sober.

Over your head eh.

YeehaaMcgee

very much so, yes.

Northwind

Briggo wrote:

If Scotlands GDP would be marginally lower than the current UK GDP then why isn't our GDP double what it is... or are you referring to GDP % in relation to per head.

GDP per cap obviously- only useful comparison.

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

I still don't don't understand why Scotland is set to have an economy based on gas and oil companies which aren't Scottish ones.

In exactly the same way as the UK currently gets a stack of cash from north sea oil companies that aren't UK ones. Tax, duties, exploitation rights, jobs created. Companies generate wealth where they operate more than where they're based.

YeehaaMcgee

exploitation rights? hmm, I see, that makes sense. So if the sea bed was suddenly Scotland's then they'd get the exploitation rights?
Jobs created? Surely that's going to be the same as it is now, they're not going to force a complete staff changeover.
As for Tax - I'm still unclear about what exactly is being taxed, why, how, and to who.

I don't agree that companies make more money where they operate than where they're based. I can think of several multinationals based in America, for example, and the profits all definitely make their way back there. Hell, seems none of them pay any frigging taxes either.

Northwind

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Jobs created? Surely that's going to be the same as it is now, they're not going to force a complete staff changeover.

Well, uh, yeah. Exactly. And all those people pay tax, buy things, etc.

YeehaaMcgee

Right, but that's just like any other industry. Claiming that oil is the basis for an economy, because of the employee's income tax is overstating things a bit eh?

Northwind

Ffff... TBH I'm now not sure why I've humoured this so far, I must be getting old...

thekickingmule

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Right, but that's just like any other industry. Claiming that oil is the basis for an economy, because of the employee's income tax is overstating things a bit eh?

Abu Dhabi has done it ok. It's the oil itself that pulls in the money, as it's a needed resource. As such, extracting it costs a few million, then you sell the oil for billions. The employees taxes is pittance to the governements pockets.

I can't understand how Scotland expects to "be about as well off as the rest of the UK" when the oil runs out, unless it can get a lot of businesses set up there or somehow trade on the stock market. I think comparing Scotland to Norway is a nice idea, however not really very realistic.

YeehaaMcgee

thekickingmule wrote:

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Right, but that's just like any other industry. Claiming that oil is the basis for an economy, because of the employee's income tax is overstating things a bit eh?

Abu Dhabi has done it ok. It's the oil itself that pulls in the money, as it's a needed resource. As such, extracting it costs a few million, then you sell the oil for billions. The employees taxes is pittance to the governements pockets.

Exactly, so how does money from oil, actually end up with the government?
The oil companies get insanely rich by selling it, and someone mentioned exploitation rights. Exploitation rights can't be so expensive as to deter an industry, so how does it work?
I don't know, and it appears that not a single person here knows either.
"Abu Dhabi has done it ok" does not explain it. Since, you haven't explained how it works there either.

Thewaylander

Most of the abu dhabi is based ont he fact they are extracting the oil, not companies based in other countries. the energy sector Scotland has is tidal, they are good with hydro but since green fuel is largely excluded from taxation to make it actually profitable they are screwed there.

I honestly think scotland doesnt have the finacial infrastructure to make it a rich country, it will get by on its own but as stated before its never had to pay for its own armed forces and so on huge cost!

mak3m

Northwind wrote:

Just because it says it on wikipedia doesn't mean it's true- the principle of equidistance isn't anything to do with the direction of the border, it apportions waters based on equidistance between the closest points of land. The clue is the word "equidistant" tbf.

whoa there i came in search of tits nobody said I had to bring knowledge

not only is this the internet tis the CC , this is a hub topic plain and simple

Article 7 of the convention covers the straight line baseline and unless the border has changed considerably I stand by my cut and paste point

stubs

mak3m wrote:

whoa there i came in search of tits nobody said I had to bring knowledge

You want tits how about Tartan tits. A picture of Scotlands Miss World contestant

cooldad

It's CC so I would.

Thewaylander

Fella, you would most members of the CC if they bent over in front of you... Except sonic because of his love of steep angles...

welshkev

I was about to say this is the most intelligent I've ever seen waylander and then he says something like that

I still would too - miss Scotland, not waylander

Thewaylander

Can't let my image slip...

And you damn well would, i'm leggy :P

mak3m

i keep wanting to say something derogatory but that dead heat in a zepplin race could do some damage, so im with cooldad on this one, and if Mr Salmond maintains a free nhs i most definetly would.

YeehaaMcgee

Thewaylander wrote:

Scotland has is tidal, they are good with hydro but since green fuel is largely excluded from taxation to make it actually profitable they are screwed there.

Ah, but that's exculded from English taxation. Scotland can have it's own laws, and could tax the bejesus out of it.

Thewaylander

Thats true they could... but then the technology would fail.

Green tech is expensive and has to produce a product so the only way it works is with minimal(see none)tax and some support or the bill payers revolt and die frozen in their sleep.

YeehaaMcgee

The technology already fails, but it wins the hearts and minds of a misinformed audience.

Thewaylander

not as part of a wider network of power, no one item solves power issues. it's all useful some more than others, tidal is very consistant power source gotta give it that, its not going anywhere

markhewitt1978

Thewaylander wrote:

, tidal is very consistant power source gotta give it that, its not going anywhere

The moon is retreating from the earth and eventually will break orbit. But we've got some time yet

Thewaylander

few years at least

poah

Thewaylander wrote:

not as part of a wider network of power, no one item solves power issues. it's all useful some more than others, tidal is very consistant power source gotta give it that, its not going anywhere

inland if you live in the south of England lol

Daz555

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

, tidal is very consistant power source gotta give it that, its not going anywhere

The moon is retreating from the earth and eventually will break orbit. But we've got some time yet

It's much more interesting than that.

The moon moves away from us due to the forces involved in the tidal bulges which cause the Earth to slow it's rotation. The moon therefore moves to a higher orbit as the Earth's rotation slows and its own orbit slows - conservation of angular momentum. The tidal bulge leads the moon somewhat as it orbits.

At some point in the distant future this process will stop and one side of the Earth will face the moon forever. However the dominant force will then be the tidal forces caused by the Sun - which will slow the Earths rotaion further. At this point the Earth will be pulled out of tidal lock with the moon will start to move inwards again. The moon moves inward because in the scenario the tidal bulge lags behind the moons orbit.

Eventually the moon will get so close that gravity will tear it to pieces and we'll probably end up with some nice Saturn-like rings to gaze up at.

Sadly none of this will matter as way before any of this the Sun will have wiped out all life on Earth, eventually destroying the Earth completely as it expands to a red giant. Happy days.

welshkev

I've actually found some of this quite interesting but ffs this is all too sensible!!!

cambo

Isn't the UK debt largely down to the banks? HBOS and RBS both having the word Scotland in the name must mean Scotland can take all the debts of the UK, we'll all be rich in England/Wales. Go for it!

What happens to the curling medals at the winter olympics?

Northwind

Be a braver man than me that'd try and take a medal away from Eve Muirhead, she'd stab you as soon as look at you. Proper scottish hero.