Doping Life Bans
Comments
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Cipo might have alternated with lemon and ginger for the races earlier in the season, mind
He was very fond of shocking people with the unexpected0 -
rayjay wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:rayjay wrote:I have always thought that Cav was clean. I don't think he would dope, He his a gifted sprinter who sometimes struggles to make the time limits.
Yes, Cipo - also a very gifted sprinter who loved mountains so much he was very prone to climbing off before the mountains in the Tour and the Vuelta - was well known for his ability to win many races including the Worlds on just bidons of camomile tea with just a hint of honey (for extra energy)
I am not talking about Cipo. I gave my opinion on Cav .
I asked do you think Roger Hammond doped at postal, after all he was there with Armstrong.
Does that make him a doper?
Can you answer?
So what your saying is that Cav doped then? That would mean he doped at Sky as well.
Your a bit inconsistent.
No, but your gut feeling on Cavendish is worth as much as any assertion on Hammond.
If cheating is cheating regardless of its severity or how long ago it took place shall we strip Rick van Steenbergen of his 1946 Tour of Flanders victory because he clambered through a train that held him up at a level crossing?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:If cheating is cheating regardless of its severity or how long ago it took place shall we strip Rick van Steenbergen of his 1946 Tour of Flanders victory because he clambered through a train that held him up at a level crossing?
'ang 'im.
Sorry, he's already dead.
Dig 'im up and 'ang 'imIt's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:rayjay wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:rayjay wrote:I have always thought that Cav was clean. I don't think he would dope, He his a gifted sprinter who sometimes struggles to make the time limits.
Yes, Cipo - also a very gifted sprinter who loved mountains so much he was very prone to climbing off before the mountains in the Tour and the Vuelta - was well known for his ability to win many races including the Worlds on just bidons of camomile tea with just a hint of honey (for extra energy)
I am not talking about Cipo. I gave my opinion on Cav .
I asked do you think Roger Hammond doped at postal, after all he was there with Armstrong.
Does that make him a doper?
Can you answer?
So what your saying is that Cav doped then? That would mean he doped at Sky as well.
Your a bit inconsistent.
No, but your gut feeling on Cavendish is worth as much as any assertion on Hammond.
If cheating is cheating regardless of its severity or how long ago it took place shall we strip Rick van Steenbergen of his 1946 Tour of Flanders victory because he clambered through a train that held him up at a level crossing?
No we shouldn't and Armstrong should have kept all his titles as well.
The whole Saga has been a waste of time and money IMO and has done the image of cycling no good whatsoever.
Merckx doped the greatest rider of all time and everybody loves him. He won how many races..
Who's the biggest cheat then?
I don't care, it was of it's time. Merckx was awesome.
But lets have a even playing field .
If we cant stop doping then let them dope and keep it safe as possible
If we want to stop them, a 2 year ban is not going to work.
Make it hurt them so they will stop.
some posters want some riders banned forever and other's to race again for the same offence.
Hypocrite's IMO0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:rayjay wrote:I have always thought that Cav was clean. I don't think he would dope, He his a gifted sprinter who sometimes struggles to make the time limits.
Yes, Cipo - also a very gifted sprinter who loved mountains so much he was very prone to climbing off before the mountains in the Tour and the Vuelta - was well known for his ability to win many races including the Worlds on just bidons of camomile tea with just a hint of honey (for extra energy)
And the cigarettes too, don't forget the cigarettes! Proven conditioning aide. Opens the airways, especially menthol cigs. Marginal gains, people, marginal gains.
Correlation is not causation.0 -
Can you not see a difference between te two substances Merckx was popped for and a 7 year long saga that involved illegal transportation of drugs across international borders, criminal conspiracy, insurance fraud and coercion? Honestly? To you there's no difference?
The world isn't black and white. You keep saying you want consistent punishments then ignoring that the WADA code, which governs doping sanctions within cycling, allows time off for dobbing yourself in and for cooperation. You keep arguing that all cheats should be treated consistently but then conviniently ignoring the fact that not all cheats are intentionally cheating or cheating to the same extent. If you want consistency, lets start with my ridiculous example... why should RVS not be stripped of the 1946 Ronde?
You've also failed to provide any evidence for your assertions that life bans will make dopers stop doping and that posters choose how harshly they want offenders punished based on who they are."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
I think the memorial to Tommy Simpson should be removed from Mt Ventoux. It could then be hung drawn and quartered down the Rhone Valley before being tossed Bin Laden like into the sea. Dirty doper, Tommy Simpson that is, not Bin Laden, I think doping (if he doped) was the least of his crimes.Correlation is not causation.0
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Above The Cows wrote:I think the memorial to Tommy Simpson should be removed from Mt Ventoux. It could then be hung drawn and quartered down the Rhone Valley before being tossed Bin Laden like into the sea. Dirty doper, Tommy Simpson that is, not Bin Laden, I think doping (if he doped) was the least of his crimes.
And he should be banned for 2 years too. I know that wasn't the penalty in the days he was doping, but you can't be too careful."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Above The Cows wrote:I think doping (if he doped) was the least of his crimes.
I don't know how you can say that, frankly I find that offensive. Surely there is no greater crime?!disgruntledgoat wrote:And he should be banned for 2 years too. I know that wasn't the penalty in the days he was doping, but you can't be too careful.
I think youre a confused hypocrit! He lost all his Paris Privledges.
Ban him for life or let Armstrong go free! Fact!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Can you not see a difference between te two substances Merckx was popped for and a 7 year long saga that involved illegal transportation of drugs across international borders, criminal conspiracy, insurance fraud and coercion? Honestly? To you there's no difference?
The world isn't black and white. You keep saying you want consistent punishments then ignoring that the WADA code, which governs doping sanctions within cycling, allows time off for dobbing yourself in and for cooperation. You keep arguing that all cheats should be treated consistently but then conviniently ignoring the fact that not all cheats are intentionally cheating or cheating to the same extent. If you want consistency, lets start with my ridiculous example... why should RVS not be stripped of the 1946 Ronde?
You've also failed to provide any evidence for your assertions that life bans will make dopers stop doping and that posters choose how harshly they want offenders punished based on who they are.
Did they both take illegal substances to win a race ?
Did they both technically cheat?
They both took illegal PED'S to win a race.
what they did to get the drugs is another issue and if they broke laws then that should be dealt with as well.
But the issue is about riding a bike fast and what they did to win.
I have no idea if a life ban will work.
But the bans now are bulls%%5 IMO
I'm happy to let riders dope, that would be the easiest way then you all know exactly where you stand.
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rayjay wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Can you not see a difference between te two substances Merckx was popped for and a 7 year long saga that involved illegal transportation of drugs across international borders, criminal conspiracy, insurance fraud and coercion? Honestly? To you there's no difference?
The world isn't black and white. You keep saying you want consistent punishments then ignoring that the WADA code, which governs doping sanctions within cycling, allows time off for dobbing yourself in and for cooperation. You keep arguing that all cheats should be treated consistently but then conviniently ignoring the fact that not all cheats are intentionally cheating or cheating to the same extent. If you want consistency, lets start with my ridiculous example... why should RVS not be stripped of the 1946 Ronde?
You've also failed to provide any evidence for your assertions that life bans will make dopers stop doping and that posters choose how harshly they want offenders punished based on who they are.
Did they both take illegal substances to win a race ?
Did they both technically cheat?
They both took illegal PED'S to win a race.
what they did to get the drugs is another issue and if they broke laws then that should be dealt with as well.
But the issue is about riding a bike fast and what they did to win.
I have no idea if a life ban will work.
But the bans now are bulls%%5 IMO
I'm happy to let riders dope, that would be the easiest way then you all know exactly where you stand.
Eddy Merckx tested positive firstly for Fencamfamine, a mild stimulant which "Fencamfamine is still used, though rarely, for treating depressive day-time fatigue, lack of concentration and lethargy" and Pemoline, a nastier stimulant with effects comparable to a very mild cocaine hit. The first positive was disputed and no action taken (apart from being kicked off the Giro), the 2nd he say out a month and admitted his guilt, although blamed a doctors prescription.
Lance Armstrong admitted to use of synthestic testosterone to aid recovery, EPO and blood transfusions to improve endurance.
Are you saying that these are both equally likely to help you win a bike race?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Above The Cows wrote:I think the memorial to Tommy Simpson should be removed from Mt Ventoux. It could then be hung drawn and quartered down the Rhone Valley before being tossed Bin Laden like into the sea. Dirty doper, Tommy Simpson that is, not Bin Laden, I think doping (if he doped) was the least of his crimes.
And he should be banned for 2 years too. I know that wasn't the penalty in the days he was doping, but you can't be too careful.
Oh now that's just semantics, DG
I believe WADA are currently looking into the unfair advantages offered by those who can afford SIS and CNP gels over a couple of Haribo giant snakes, and I'm fully in favour of cheating SIS and CNP guzzlers having a ban slapped on them going back, say, 2 years?0 -
disgruntledgoat
DId they race against each other :roll:
They took what gained them an advantage in their era.0 -
rayjay wrote:disgruntledgoat
DId they race against each other :roll:
They took what gained them an advantage in their era.
Yes they did. So did RVS. One gained a heck of a lot more of an advantage than the others though eh?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:I believe WADA are currently looking into the unfair advantages offered by those who can afford SIS and CNP gels over a couple of Haribo giant snakes, and I'm fully in favour of cheating SIS and CNP guzzlers having a ban slapped on them going back, say, 2 years?
This is very important. It explains why the Dutch riders have been so crap since the proliferation of gels over Haribo Gummy Bears as the energy provider of choice. The gels are criminally expensive in the Netherlands. In fact it has led to something of an international trade in bulk gel orders via the middle man known only by the mystical name 'Wiggle'. However, the necessity to be in when your gels are delivered and the notorious slap dash nature of TNT deliveries post-privatisation has meant that Dutch riders now have to calculate the benefits of going out training versus waiting in for the delivery of their gels.
FACT.
With this level of analysis they'll definitely have me on Avondetappe come July.Correlation is not causation.0 -
RVS is a stupid argument and you know it.disgruntledgoat wrote:rayjay wrote:disgruntledgoat
DId they race against each other :roll:
They took what gained them an advantage in their era.
Yes they did. So did RVS. One gained a heck of a lot more of an advantage than the others though eh?
You don't know how they responded to PED's do you?
You know how their rivals responded to PED'S do you?
You don't know what advantage it gave them over their rivals. Fact
As for them racing together you are just being pedantic.
They were champions in different era's0 -
Richmond I'm sure you have better things you can do.
You seem to make childish comments and remarks on nearly all my posts.
You look like a sad stalker.
Do you stay awake at night thinking of smart reply's to one of my post's .
Get a life.0 -
rayjay wrote:
RVS is a stupid argument and you know it.disgruntledgoat wrote:rayjay wrote:disgruntledgoat
DId they race against each other :roll:
They took what gained them an advantage in their era.
Yes they did. So did RVS. One gained a heck of a lot more of an advantage than the others though eh?
You don't know how they responded to PED's do you?
You know how their rivals responded to PED'S do you?
You don't know what advantage it gave them over their rivals. Fact
As for them racing together you are just being pedantic.
They were champions in different era's
You haven't answered my question.
"Are you saying that these are both equally likely to help you win a bike race?"
Even if Merckx and Merckx alone was using the substances attributed to him and Armstrong and Armstrong along was using the substances attributed to him, who would be conferred the greater advantage? The mild stimulants included in over the counter "pep pills" or the oxygen vector drugs?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
When BR forumites and Mr Logic collide......
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Merckx and Armstrong won in different eras.
Merckx took what he thought would help him win
Armstrong took what he thought would help him win
I have no idea exactly what their rivals took or how they responded to PED'S, so I have no idea of the advantage they would have gained by using PED's .
cheers0 -
This is all getting a bit silly now. We have 9 pages of forum members rehashing the same debate with Rayjay which was played out on another thread a couple of weeks ago. It has been strongly argued that a lifetime ban is impossible from a legal perspective, practically very difficult (and costly) to enforce, very questionable on principle but he has for the most part ignored this discussion and focused on the fact that the current system is UNFAIR!!!! Time to let it lie I'd think...0
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In fairness to Rayjay, it doesn't really matter about the technology, it's what it was used for ... In this case to gain a competitive advantage outwith the rules of the sport ...0
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Let me try again. I'll rephrase it.
Do you think that if I took two identical replacement level riders and gave one a 6 week programme of Fencamfamine and the other a 6 week programme of EPO, transfusions and testosterone, both programmes would be equally effective in improving physiological measurements that are linked to success in road racing?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Crankbrother wrote:In fairness to Rayjay, it doesn't really matter about the technology, it's what it was used for ... In this case to gain a competitive advantage outwith the rules of the sport ...
To my mind, if you're arguing that any attempt to gain an advantage outside the rules is as bad as any other and the punishment should be the same then BC should be banning riders for 2 years every weekend for riding on the wrong side of the road."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Crankbrother wrote:In fairness to Rayjay, it doesn't really matter about the technology, it's what it was used for ... In this case to gain a competitive advantage outwith the rules of the sport ...
To my mind, if you're arguing that any attempt to gain an advantage outside the rules is as bad as any other and the punishment should be the same then BC should be banning riders for 2 years every weekend for riding on the wrong side of the road.
That's the rub, so to speak ... I'm not arguing ...0 -
Crankbrother wrote:In fairness to Rayjay, it doesn't really matter about the technology, it's what it was used for ... In this case to gain a competitive advantage outwith the rules of the sport ...
That's a fair point, but again context is important. Doping in the pre-90s days was seen completely differently to today. We can't judge the actions of years ago by today's standards.
If you ask someone in their 60s if they drove home after a night out in the pub, they probably did as it wasn't seen in anywhere near as bad a light as it is today. But that doesn't mean they should be charged with drink-driving now, or ostracised for what they did at a time when nobody cared.It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Let me try again. I'll rephrase it.
Do you think that if I took two identical replacement level riders and gave one a 6 week programme of Fencamfamine and the other a 6 week programme of EPO, transfusions and testosterone, both programmes would be equally effective in improving physiological measurements that are linked to success in road racing?
Seriously :roll: . You know the answer. I know the answer. :roll:0 -
rayjay wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Let me try again. I'll rephrase it.
Do you think that if I took two identical replacement level riders and gave one a 6 week programme of Fencamfamine and the other a 6 week programme of EPO, transfusions and testosterone, both programmes would be equally effective in improving physiological measurements that are linked to success in road racing?
Seriously :roll: . You know the answer. I know the answer. :roll:
I'm using the English language the best way I know how... What is the answer?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0
This discussion has been closed.
