Doping Life Bans

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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Must confess, if I was going to be tempted to take drugs, I like the sound of HgH.

    But then again, didn't it massively enlarge van de Holyfield's heart?
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Must confess, if I was going to be tempted to take drugs, I like the sound of HgH.

    But then again, didn't it massively enlarge van de Holyfield's heart?
    Was van de Holyfield a Flemish Boxer?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    RichN95 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Must confess, if I was going to be tempted to take drugs, I like the sound of HgH.

    But then again, didn't it massively enlarge van de Holyfield's heart?
    Was van de Holyfield a Flemish Boxer?

    :wink:

    See what I did there?
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    I that's a genuine mistake Rick that's so so cute...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    HGH is being used quite a lot in the states. Oprah did a thing about it and it became popular.
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    ddraver wrote:
    Again I need to ask you how you think it has been working over the last 3 years?

    What's your view?

    Then I will respond.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    In my dream world any person caught doping would be banned from competing professionally in the sport. I understand this may not be feasible in the real world.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    rayjay wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Again I need to ask you how you think it has been working over the last 3 years?

    What's your view?

    Then I will respond.

    As we ve been saying for however many pages it is now it's had chuff all effect. I can't think of a single example when it has come up yet and there are no shortage of riders/DS/doctors/mechanics/chefs/bus drivers/bannermen/drummer boys with doping pasts...

    your turn
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    HGH is used loads in the US in the 'hollywood' pursuit of looking younger.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    The one thing that we can all agree on is that Kangaroos should not be allowed to run cycling teams.

    Just look at them, This is the Pozzato of kangaroos. Only Kangaroos can judge him.

    kangaroo11.jpg
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dsoutar
    dsoutar Posts: 1,746
    Yeah - that IGF-1 sounds nice

    Accelrated aging, neuropathy, dwarfism, cancer

    Where can I get some ?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    dsoutar wrote:
    Yeah - that IGF-1 sounds nice

    Accelrated aging, neuropathy, dwarfism, cancer

    Where can I get some ?

    You've already got a bunch of it.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    RichN95 wrote:
    The one thing that we can all agree on is that Kangaroos should not be allowed to run cycling teams.

    Just look at them, This is the Pozzato of kangaroos. Only Kangaroos can judge him.

    kangaroo11.jpg



    If ever there's a marsupial with an unparalleled mastery of emojis in tweets, its this one
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    ddraver wrote:
    rayjay wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Again I need to ask you how you think it has been working over the last 3 years?

    What's your view?

    Then I will respond.

    As we ve been saying for however many pages it is now it's had chuff all effect. I can't think of a single example when it has come up yet and there are no shortage of riders/DS/doctors/mechanics/chefs/bus drivers/bannermen/drummer boys with doping pasts...

    your turn

    I agree

    What we have now IMO is Half ar%ed attempt by the UCI to show some balls. If they are going to play tough then make a rule that will have an effect.

    Ryder or Ballan both recently in a bit of bother, say they both are excluded from the UCI and will not be able to get back again. That would send shock waves down the line.

    They both have doped. No matter what the circumstances.

    If anything the UCI should try and get to young riders and try and make some impact there if you want to change things.

    Ex dopers need to be kicked out IMO if you want to clean cycling up .
    Vaughters for instance or Riis can say to a rider that he should not dope but they will turn round and say "well you did"

    The UCI IMO have never really been that concerned about doping/ped's. Its usually an outside influence or circumstance that's forces their hand.

    I just would like to see a fair system. Same penalty for riders caught doping or just let them dope and make it as safe as possible.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Quick question RayJay, how do you factor in the concept of a satute of limitations? If two riders get caught/admit to doping in their past, one 2 years ago, one 10 years ago should they both recieve the same punishment?

    What I'm taking from this is you feel that Ryder Hesjedal should just keep his mouth shut, but I'm not sure how that helps the sport?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    The UCI don't set the rules. They need to be inside the WADA framework

    The problem with Rayjays argument is he thinks it's 1997 at the moment
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    iainf72 wrote:
    The UCI don't set the rules. They need to be inside the WADA framework

    The problem with Rayjays argument is he thinks it's 1997 at the moment


    Bang on the money
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    rayjay wrote:
    Ex dopers need to be kicked out IMO if you want to clean cycling up .
    Vaughters for instance or Riis can say to a rider that he should not dope but they will turn round and say "well you did"

    You need to back this up or quit saying it. What's your evidence that Vaughters and Millar have been lying through their teeth: even turning a blind eye to doping on their team?
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    It seems like people think everything is black or white.

    The equations seems to be (for example):
    Armstrong doped, and Hesjadal doped therefore Armstrong = Hesjadal, so Armstrong is being unfairly punished.

    However context , gravity and behaviour all have to play a part in any judgement. Hence it would be ridiculous to treat Armstrong and Hesjedal he same.

    It would be like a traffic cop who gives a warning to an apologetic 32mph driver in a 30mph zone doing the same to someone who is caught doing 70mph in a 30mph zone and shows no remorse whatsoever. The same as it would be ridiculous that both got a 5 year ban from driving.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    It seems like people think everything is black or white.

    The equations seems to be (for example):
    Armstrong doped, and Hesjadal doped therefore Armstrong = Hesjadal, so Armstrong is being unfairly punished.

    People who pretend to hold such a view are not interested in argument. People who genuinely believe it are known as children: argument is wasted on them. But every now and then the children need to stop with the random smears.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    I have absolutely no idea what the argument is anymore. All I know is this:

    Cycling does not exist in a vacuum.
    The UCI does not exist in a vacuum.
    Trying to institute global good governance in the field of anti-doping is like all forms of global governance very, very hard when the world is made up of states.
    Global governance of anything costs money.
    That money comes from somewhere.
    Independence is impossible in a world of sovereign state-units where resources are necessary.

    Thank you for listening to an introduction to basic international relations as taught through the example of cycling.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Hi, Vladimir here, with the big resources for all your sovereign unit needs
    kangaroo11.jpg
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    ^That is so much better. That I can understand.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Above The Cows wrote:
    I have absolutely no idea what the argument is anymore. All I know is this:

    Cycling does not exist in a vacuum.
    The UCI does not exist in a vacuum.
    Trying to institute global good governance in the field of anti-doping is like all forms of global governance very, very hard when the world is made up of states.
    Global governance of anything costs money.
    That money comes from somewhere.
    Independence is impossible in a world of sovereign state-units where resources are necessary.

    Thank you for listening to an introduction to basic international relations as taught through the example of cycling.



    Miss, I paid attention and you can test me any time you like on my comprehension :wink:
  • Mccaria
    Mccaria Posts: 869
    Check out the Meca-Medina ruling - basically sporting bodies in the EU are subject to the primacy of EU laws. Basic upshot is the sporting bodies cannot set regulations and rules that are not consistent with EU laws (I suppose they could set them, but they would then be defeated in court).

    Life bans for first time sporting offences would fall at the hurdle of EU restraint of trade legislation (professional cyclist have protections to go about and make a living from their trade, the same as plumbers, dentists etc). Up to now an upper limit of a 2 year ban for the most serious first time offence was accepted as reasonable and supportable under restraint of trade legislation - there is case law on this if you want to do the research. Hence why so much time and effort has been put into raising the length of a first time ban for the most serious offences from 2 years to 4 years and maintaining that a ban of this length is reasonable. It will be interesting to see if this is challenged at some point.

    Similarly with statute of limitations. Sport cannot exist outside of the legal code and if no statue of limitations is set and seen as reasonable, a good lawyer would only be too happy to argue that a sports person should be afforded the same protections that exist in other commercial/contractual agreements.
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    Mccaria wrote:
    Mcsense
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Mccaria wrote:
    Life bans for first time sporting offences would fall at the hurdle of EU restraint of trade legislation (professional cyclist have protections to go about and make a living from their trade, the same as plumbers, dentists etc).
    But surely there are exceptions to this in serious cases. Doctors can be struck off, teachers banned from working with children etc.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mccaria
    Mccaria Posts: 869
    You then get into the debate about what is reasonable. Doctors being struck off and teachers being banned would be for the most serious of offences and it would be argued that it is reasonable to protect patients/children. I'm afraid doping in sport is not regarded as quite so serious (despite what some of us may think !)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    Mccaria wrote:
    You then get into the debate about what is reasonable. Doctors being struck off and teachers being banned would be for the most serious of offences and it would be argued that it is reasonable to protect patients/children. I'm afraid doping in sport is not regarded as quite so serious (despite what some of us may think !)
    Yes, of course. (I don't believe in life bans myself). I was just wondering if they would actually be illegal (as opposed to unjust).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    As a manager of a team you have a responsibility for the riders health ... An ex doper has shown a certain disregard for their own health so may apply the same level of care to those under their charge ...

    It's a rule that makes sense ... As opposed to denying a rider a chance to earn a living doing something where bad choices only really affect them healthwise ...
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