Alpe D'HuZes

meanredspider

PMSL at the vultures circling over my bent and broken body waiting to see when the last flicker of life leaves my eyes....





....so they can pinch my bike!

BTW - Cyclist magazine did a nice positive review of the Volagi Liscio this month

Kieran_Burns

meanredspider wrote:

PMSL at the vultures circling over my bent and broken body waiting to see when the last flicker of life leaves my eyes....





....so they can pinch my bike!

BTW - Cyclist magazine did a nice positive review of the Volagi Liscio this month

mrc1

Just had a read through the thread and this certainly sounds.... erm..... interesting!

My 2p on the training front (I'm a coach and own Le Domestique Tours, so have a lot of experience when it comes to the mountains):

First off, really hone in on what it is you are actually going to be doing. As I understand it, this is going to be climbing for anything from 1-2 hrs, followed by a 15-30 min descent, repeated. So with that in mind you have to train smart and try to replicate this level and type of work.

1. Get your weight down as much as you can. Even a small drop in weight is going to make a huge difference over this challenge so that would be my major focus.
2. Understand the three energy systems at play and the fact that your aerobic energy system is going to be the one that you HAVE to rely on for this challenge. Also understand that any efforts approaching or above your aerobic threshold, will cost you over the course of the day (the concept of burning matches), so should be avoided as much as possible.
3. With this in mind, while there is certainly a place for short rep hill repeats in your programme as you near the date of the challenge (in order to prepare you for the ramps on Ad'H for example, where a sub threshold level is likely to result in you track standing), I wouldn't go crazy on the 1 min on 1 min off style intervals and the short durations climbs at this point or in the future, as while they feel like you are trashing yourself and doing great training, they just aren't going to be that relevant for this challenge (as broken down above) and can only be useful if you have also prepared your aerobic system properly.
4. You therefore need to work on improving your aerobic threshold/ftp to the highest level possible and then work out how far below that you will need to average to enable you to repeat the efforts in line with the structure of the day. It's this sub-threshold level that is going to get you through, as it is possible to sit at this level for the allotted time of climbing, take on sufficient calories to fuel this level of output and recover sufficiently during the descending recovery time, to enable you to repeat again and again. While it would be great if you could do this on a similar climb to Ad'H, it isn't absolutely necessary and your location probably prohibits that, so instead, focus on holding the required output for that length of time regardless of topography.
5. Descending. If you currently aren't a big fan of descending, or are just out of practice on long descents, then you should really focus on this skill, as being able to relax and descend safely is going to have a huge effect both physically (i.e. not requiring additional energy to death grip the bars/increase the chance of aches and pains in your core, neck and shoulders) and mentally (i.e. being able to relax and mentally prepare yourself for the next climb, rather than get to the bottom having had a terrifying 30 minute descent which put you on edge).
6. Cadence and gearing wise, while I normally recommend that people ride at their self selected cadence and train at that level, I think you have to accept that the nature of this challenge is going to result in your cadence falling well below a standard operating range at some point of the day. Unless you can be persuaded to go down the triple route, I would therefore recommend you include some low cadence work during your training to prepare yourself for this eventuality.
7. Knees. This ties in with the above, basically, you are going to be asking a huge amount of your knees both on the day and during training, as the combination of low rpms and high output is going to put them under a lot of pressure. I would therefore be extremely protective of them both in training and during the event itself to minimise the likelihood of injury leading to you pulling out or suffering. Nicole from Peloton Physiotherapy recently wrote two articles for our site on knee pain and management, which are well worth a read http://www.ledomestiquetours.co.uk/category/blog/.

Finally, the best bit of advice I can give is to work the on the day pattern into your training, starting off with one rep (i.e. 1-2hrs at your sub threshold level, followed by the notional descent recovery period) and then building up to multiple reps over time. This will be the best preparation you can do, as specificity is king.

Hope the above helps and best of luck.

veronese68

Wow, that was written so clearly it even made sense to me.

spasypaddy

if you want some diet help PM me

oh and purchase a power meter, and get a coach

mtb-idle

well, what can i say. I've ridden it twice in the last 3 years whilst following the TDF and that was enough for me.

Just to reiterate various points:

- lose weight
- get as big a cassette on the back as possible
- get used to the heat. Not been there in June but July is sweltering and as well as sweat pouring from all normal points I was also sweating from my stomach (never sweated from there before)
- the first three or four hairpins are seriously steep, they really, really hurt
- you seem to know how to push yourself so I won't give any tips on this but I find that if I clear my mind and just try to enjoy the riding rather than worrying about time/pace/HR or whatever I get there in the end
- stay positive, as soon as you start thinking negative things the strength ebbs away from your legs

BTW, for comparison purposes I'm circa 82kg, riding an alu Bianchi that isn't particularly light (only about £1k's worth of bike) and I'm 50 this year.

Here's a short video to give you an idea of the terrain if you are interested although it will be a lot less crowded when you do it. Keep an eye on my youngest son in the fluoro green top. I paced him up as he needed encouragement. He's 18 in this video and is on an MTB so much easier gearing but he has a disability that means his left arm is paralysed so he's effectively riding up one handed. Makes for interesting descending...

https://vimeo.com/30693168

mrc1

Veronese68 wrote:

Wow, that was written so clearly it even made sense to me.

Glad to hear!

meanredspider

mrc1 wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Wow, that was written so clearly it even made sense to me.

Glad to hear!

Yes - it was excellent, thanks. I'm a very happy descender (hence being nicknamed "Bomber" by my cycling mates) and the Volagi with its disc brakes (if the vultures above haven't got it first) is the perfect descending bike. It'll be the other people heading down who will limit my pace and take my concentration.

The rest makes a lot of sense - thanks so much for taking the time to write it!

Kieran_Burns

meanredspider wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Wow, that was written so clearly it even made sense to me.

Glad to hear!

Yes - it was excellent, thanks. I'm a very happy descender (hence being nicknamed "Bomber" by my cycling mates) and the Volagi with its disc brakes (if the vultures above haven't got it first) is the perfect descending bike. It'll be the other people heading down who will limit my pace and take my concentration.

The rest makes a lot of sense - thanks so much for taking the time to write it!

We're not vultures, merely avid recyclers (ba dum tssssh)

greg66_tri_v2.0

mrc1 wrote:

2. Understand the three energy systems at play and the fact that your aerobic energy system is going to be the one that you HAVE to rely on for this challenge. Also understand that any efforts approaching or above your aerobic threshold, will cost you over the course of the day (the concept of burning matches), so should be avoided as much as possible.
3. With this in mind, while there is certainly a place for short rep hill repeats in your programme as you near the date of the challenge (in order to prepare you for the ramps on Ad'H for example, where a sub threshold level is likely to result in you track standing), I wouldn't go crazy on the 1 min on 1 min off style intervals and the short durations climbs at this point or in the future, as while they feel like you are trashing yourself and doing great training, they just aren't going to be that relevant for this challenge (as broken down above) and can only be useful if you have also prepared your aerobic system properly.
4. You therefore need to work on improving your aerobic threshold/ftp to the highest level possible and then work out how far below that you will need to average to enable you to repeat the efforts in line with the structure of the day. It's this sub-threshold level that is going to get you through, as it is possible to sit at this level for the allotted time of climbing, take on sufficient calories to fuel this level of output and recover sufficiently during the descending recovery time, to enable you to repeat again and again. While it would be great if you could do this on a similar climb to Ad'H, it isn't absolutely necessary and your location probably prohibits that, so instead, focus on holding the required output for that length of time regardless of topography.

...

specificity is king.

I've been thinking about this, and IMO these four points are absolutely key.

For me, the Marmotte, and specifically the Alpe, was a far more intense physical challenge than IMC. And leaving aside the infernal heat, I am pretty sure I now know why.

Last year I spent a ton of time in Z2 pedalling and running, simply because that's where I had to sit all day long to get through IMC. Pushing myself into Z3 on the day would not have been a good idea (save for moments here and there) and so there was little point training in that zone, or above it.

However, riding up the Alpe (and the Galibier) I can't hold Z2 without trackstanding or a cadence that is so close it makes no odds. And that's probably true of any sustained 10+% climb for me. So it didn't take long to start falling to pieces on those two climbs.

Now a 28t on the rear instead of a 25t would have helped a bit, and a 30t would have helped some more. But I think what would have helped more would have been specific training targeted climbing - ie at holding a higher HR/load for longer and thereby basically shifting my "boiling point" a bit further round the dial. Treating the Marmotte as a training ride was, I have to admit, A Very Silly Idea.

I am *very* pleased to see that the appetite for fruit loop nut job physical challenges is alive and well in Commuting Chat though! Good luck indeed (cos you're gonna need it...).

veronese68

Kieran_Burns wrote:

We're not vultures, merely avid recyclers (ba dum tssssh)

The Avids have gone in favour of TRP HyRds, your claim on the bike is no longer valid.

meanredspider

I'd love to have a bit more explanation of point 4 if I could. To paraphrase what I've understood is that I need to replicate the "effort" I'll be making (as measured in HR/power??) going up the hill in whatever training I do (cycling into the wind on some never-ending dyke). Is that broadly correct?

Kieran_Burns

Veronese68 wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

We're not vultures, merely avid recyclers (ba dum tssssh)

The Avids have gone in favour of TRP HyRds, your claim on the bike is no longer valid.

greg66_tri_v2.0

meanredspider wrote:

I'd love to have a bit more explanation of point 4 if I could. To paraphrase what I've understood is that I need to replicate the "effort" I'll be making (as measured in HR/power??) going up the hill in whatever training I do (cycling into the wind on some never-ending dyke). Is that broadly correct?

Here goes.

If you have a power meter, the most important thing to do with it is to work out your functional threshold power (FTP). This is the wattage you can put out, constantly, for one hour, such that on the stroke of the hour you are completely spent. There are various tests you can do to work out your FTP. None of them are greatly enjoyable.

Think of your FTP as the redline on a car's rev meter. A car can sit at 200rpm below the redline all day. But at 200rpm over the redline, things start to go wrong in a matter of minutes.

So, for your hour, you can ride at FTP and know that you can sustain that output for the hour. Start out at 5 watts over your FTP, and you will not last the hour. In fact, it's likely that your *average* over the hour will be less than your FTP - like the car, you "damage" yourself riding at over FTP such that the time spent recovering is >> the time spent damaging.

Ok so far? FTP is a useful tool.

FTP is also something you can change - unlike a car's redline - through training. So it pays to redo an FTP test from time to time. It just gets better and better, doesn't it?

Once you know your FTP, you can then work out what wattage you should ride at for distances > an hour: eg the 112miles of an IM is something you might ride at 65-75% of your FTP. This is something you should be able to sustain whilst leaving enough in the tank to run afterwards.

You need to work out what your FTP is, then alight on a % of that number. It's that % that you want to try to ride to on every climb. For the first, and possibly also the second, it will feel like you're babying yourself. You'll have tons of gas in the tank and will be wondering why you're wasting precious energy going slowly. But the idea of riding by numbers isn't to ride the first quarter of the race well - it's to ride the last quarter well. And if you put the numbers together, you should find that you've got enough left in the tank to tap out the sixth ascent relatively (haha) comfortably (guffaw).

For training purposes, you want to do two things, I think. First is the hard work of whatever you need to do from time to time to keep pushing your FTP up. Second though is the canny bit - it's riding to a % of your FTP over periods of time close to your target total climbing time.

So, allowing 2-3 weeks for a taper, I'd say you want to be targeting over the four to six weeks prior to your taper a series of weekend rides in which you maintain your target % of your FTP building to a 7+ hour ride as the last big ride pre taper. You can build in your 15 min recoveries if you have time, but the key is to build endurance specific to this event. Of course, that's not suggesting that you sit on your arse until the 4-6 week period starts - you'll need to do a ton of endurance work before then. But the work done prior to the 4-6 week period is the foundation for what you then put together in that 4-6 week period.

pollys_bott

If you don't have a power meter find out your max heart rate and work out your anaerobic threshold which, if memory serves, is 80-85% MHR. For example, my max is 196 so when I was faced with my first Alpine ascent I knew that I didn't want to go above a heart rate of 165 so dropped it into the granny ring and twiddled my way slowly up the Col d'Ornon. Get plenty of riding in at this level - Greg's red line - whether Belgian bergs or grinding into a headwind by the side of a dyke. Clearly not as accurate as a PM but better than nowt. Bottom line is to find where your red line is and get used to riding just below it for long periods.

Six times up the Alpe... puts my fretting about being ready for the Fred into context!

meanredspider

Thanks guys - that helped me understand it (I'm sure I've read about FTP loads of times but never needed it so have forgotten it).

So, on the plus side, the Tacx measures power so that can get me started. As it's essentially a power brake, I assume it is vaguely accurate (anybody know?). Maybe I can then correlate that with my HR. As a rule of thumb I can ride several hours at 160bpm and all day day-in-day out at 140bpm so I guess I'm expecting my FTP to be somewhere in the 160's. To start with I guess I need something to aim at else I'll reach the hour with something left in the tank or not make the hour...

I'm going to leave that exercise for today because it's the end of a long day at work. Maybe Saturday is FTP day! In the meantime maybe I need to be taking sneaky peeks at power meters

Right - onto the Tacx for a ride up ADH!

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

PMSL at the vultures circling over my bent and broken body waiting to see when the last flicker of life leaves my eyes....

I like the way he thinks we are joking.........

meanredspider

OK - that's the start of it on here (bearing in mind I did Telegraphe and Galibier on Saturday in one 2:40 stint)

Here's the scores on the doors
HRmax (highest HR I've ever seen) 183bpm. HRrest 55bpm
Weight entered on Tacx 98kg (weight this morning 95kg)(post training weight 92kg!!)
Age 49

Ride 1
Distance 13.8km
Avg slope 7.8%
Ascent 1080m
Duration 1:17:31
Avg speed 10.68kmh
Avg cadence (28 all the way up) 73rpm
Avg power 226W
Energy 4210kJ (1000kCals)
Avg HR 161bpm (Max 170)

What I'm not sure about is what counts as the top. That ride was the Tacx top which is the Fin sign through the town though there is also a Finish sign on the bridge as you enter the town (I reached that in 1:11:30). Doesn't matter really.

It's true that the first slopes are pretty steep (11-12% in places) and the typical ramps are 8-9% with the hairpins at around 6%.

I need to check how much fluid I'm losing. I drank 750ml. I'm riding indoors at around 20C but with a fan on me. I don't want to get dehydrated or suffer horrible cramp.

il_principe

Not much to add to what Greg, mrc1 etc have said. I'd be wary of your Tacx power being anywhere close to accurate though so don't rely on it. Perhaps consider hiring a Powertap?

My thoughts are throughly unscientific but work for me (I have no doubt that a proper, power based regime makes a big difference):

1: Don't arse about with hill reps on short hills, there's no point.
2: Get out to the mountains as soon as the roads are clear, ideally to the Alp, it pays to be prepared especially if you haven't ridden the mountains before.
3: Find a long flat road, ideally with a headwind and ride hard for an hour. At the very least plan your rides so you have an hour long, flat as possible section. This is the best way of replicating a long climb if you don't live in the mountains. Set an av speed target, say 20mph and hold that for the full hour. Do this regularly.
4: Don't rely on the Turbo. Get out in the elements as often as you can.


Good luck, IMHO 4 months does not leave you with much training time, but hopefully you have a good winter base to push on from.

rick_chasey

Il Principe wrote:

3: Find a long flat road, ideally with a headwind and ride hard for an hour. At the very least plan your rides so you have an hour long, flat as possible section. This is the best way of replicating a long climb if you don't live in the mountains. Set an av speed target, say 20mph and hold that for the full hour. Do this regularly.

Definitely. Riding in a cadence that you'll be doing uphill during this would make sense too (i.e. slightly overgeared).

meanredspider

Rick Chasey wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

3: Find a long flat road, ideally with a headwind and ride hard for an hour. At the very least plan your rides so you have an hour long, flat as possible section. This is the best way of replicating a long climb if you don't live in the mountains. Set an av speed target, say 20mph and hold that for the full hour. Do this regularly.

Definitely. Riding in a cadence that you'll be doing uphill during this would make sense too (i.e. slightly overgeared).

That's very easy - from Amsterdam to Utrecht on the canal is pretty much exactly this and, in my experience, always a headwind (brutal and mind-numbing too - good mental training). I've been doing a lot of 100k rides over the winter so I think my base is ok. Judging by how my legs feel, the turbo is doing me some good too - but I do plan to get out riding a lot more before work as the weather improves rather than just the commute. I have the advantage of no car over here so I bike everywhere and I simply can't ride slowly! BTW what's the SCR for a moped? I slipstreamed one towards work this morning on the SS (the old boy even noticed and commented at one set of lights) then scalped another one twice on the way home. I think I'm a cycling hooligan by a Dutch standards....

itboffin

there's been lots of talk about weight loss but you've not mention your diet and i'm not talking about weight loss diet i'm talking about day to day type of food, please tell me you're not lunching at febo?




yes that is a vending cabinet of unidentifiable deep fried type food

itboffin

this :shock:

greg66_tri_v2.0

Jesus. That looks a deep fried bag of snot with some blades of grass in it.

And not in a good way.

veronese68

I can't imagine how anybody could describe that in a good way.

meanredspider

itboffin wrote:

there's been lots of talk about weight loss but you've not mention your diet and i'm not talking about weight loss diet i'm talking about day to day type of food, please tell me you're not lunching at febo?

So what I'm eating now:

Breakfast: porridge (made 50:50 water & semi-skimmed milk) with a sliced banana & coffee

Lunch: smallish green salad with chicken satay (or similar). Thin soup (as opposed to "broth")

Dinner: Lean chicken (grilled) with some new potatoes (whilst I still have some) and green veg.

Drinking black tea during the day and 1 or 2 small coffees. Need to drink more water.

Eating a handful of nuts mid-morning and mid afternoon.

Love those vending things - reminds me of being here when I was at school!

The differences from what I used to eat:

Breakfast - no change

Lunch - normally a filled baguette

Afternoon - large cookie with a coffee

Dinner - pasta, higher fat chicken, pizza, larger portions, biscuits.

So my main changes are cutting out many carbs during the day and eating smaller portions.

itboffin

I'm not sure you have the right diet there fella, why dont you reach out to a sports nutritionist one of the more sane ones.

oh and what about drink, soft & hard?

that's my weakness i generally eat really well but i do like a tipple :roll:

rubertoe

Did anyone mention about loosing weight?

mrc1

Greg66 is pretty much right on the nose in terms of his breakdown of FTP, so I won't regurgitate what he has already written, but do have a couple of extra points:

1. A power meter would be a fantastic tool for this type of event (I'd struggle to think of a better event to use one in to be frank), as assuming you have properly tested ahead of the day, you will be able to determine EXACTLY what you can and cannot do. That being said, they are costly and you only really get the true value from them if you record every single session and have some time to go through the resulting data. You also don't have very long before the big day to build up a baseline of power data, so if you are considering getting one, you should do so asap.
2. Your turbo power meter is unlikely to be accurate in terms of measuring exactly what wattage you are putting out, but that isn't necessarily a killer, if it is consistently inaccurate. Ie if it always reads X for a given input, then regardless of whether it should actually be reading Y, you can still use it for monitoring your training (though obviously not your efforts on the day). Whether it is consistent comes down to a variety of factors such as whether your bike stays on it all the time etc etc, so only you can work that out. If it is accurate then you can certainly have a go at correlating your heart rate to a given output in order to hone in on your threshold.
3. You can also of course, use heart rate to determine your threshold and it is perfectly possible to work out a fairly accurate figure from a variety of testing protocols. This can then be translated for training and on the day purposes. The issue I think you may find with a challenge of this nature, is that your heart rate could be so widely variable on the day due to a variety of factors (heat, caffeine, fatigue later in the day, nerves etc) that you may struggle to get an accurate picture of its relation to your threshold. You also have to contend with the fact that heart rate lags output by a significant amount of time in certain circumstances, which could cause you big issues over the course of a long day like this (i.e. you could be going past the redline for several minutes before your heart rate catches up and you realise), so you would need to also rely on perceived exertion.
4. One thing I should point out, is that while the comparison to the Ironman style of sub FTP work is without a doubt correct, you do have the known quantity descents within which to take a break from the high output work, so I would definitely ensure you factor these into your training. If you are smart and train well, you will find these breaks give you a very real performance benefit as compared to the micro breaks you might get on a rolling Ironman course. The flip side of course, is that given the format of the day, your legs will have very little transition from rest to flat out. This may well cause your legs to seize up resulting in it being very hard to get going again, so it really is important to train for this pattern.

So in terms of what you need to work on:

FTP/Threshold

You really need to get focussing on building your FTP/Threshold - Greg's redline and the point at which your aerobic system (which is in theory capable of producing output all day long if fuelled) has to pass over the bulk of the work to your anaerobic system (which has a very limited capacity in the bigger picture of your planned day). There are a tonne of methods of doing this, with the most popular session being the 2x20 (see the articles on my site that I previously linked to for an explanation of how to do these sort of sessions). Note you don't always have to train at ftp/threshold to improve ftp/threshold, so have a read of some of the literature on concepts such as the "Sweet Spot", as they will help you to get the balance between getting the best possible result for the minimal cost (i.e. three good sessions over the course of a week, versus one really hard session and several days off to recover).

Weight

Without wanting to cause offence, 95-98kg gives you plenty to lose and given that you only have four months until the big day, you are likely to see just as much performance benefit, if not more, from losing weight, than you are from training. It sounds like you have changed up your diet and are on the right tracks in terms of cutting junk calories, but you need to ensure that you are eating well enough to fuel your training (a careful balance when trying to improve performance and lose weight), so I would recommend having a chat with a dietician on that score.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Weight: 95+kg is not going to help you, but what is your height and build?

Food: what I know about healthy eating is close to zero. However, that rarely stops me opining on a subject, and what follows is little more that bits I've remembered that others have thrown at me: (a) I'd cut the spuds out at dinner. Meat and lots of green veg should be fine; (b) breakfast like a King, lunch like a Prince, dinner like a pauper; (c) look at high GI foods - eg sweet potato, lentils, all dat shit; (d) on the day itself I would definitely aim to follow the IM feed plan: get up between 2 and 3am and stuff yourself - for me it was an oat/fruit/yoghurt smoothie, a plate of sweet potato fries and a bar of very dark chocolate. Then back to bed.