Alpe D'HuZes

meanredspider

Some of you may have noticed I do the odd bike ride for charity - from the Strathpuffer 24hr MTB race to the Rat Race Road Trip (London 2 Edinburgh).

This year is a little different again and typically Dutch

http://www.opgevenisgeenoptie.nl

Basically, for those of you whose Dutch isn't fantastic it climbing Alp D'Huez 6 times in a day (about 6300m of climbing averaging around 8%) for cancer charities. It's 5 June too - so it will be warm.

Firstly, anybody done it?

Any advice? I've got most of the classic Alpine climb videos for the Tacx turbo - I did Col du Telegraphe and Galibier on it yesterday (1900m pretty much continuous) - my legs are feeling it today. I plan to shed as much weight as I can but I rarely get much below 90kg - if I were a professional cyclist, I'd be a Hoy rather than a Wiggins. I'm also planning to start as early in the day as I can (to avoid the heat), go slow and steady and keep stocked on calories and fluids.

itboffin

No offence intended matey but youve gone mad, 6 times??? No fecking way and where did you get 8% from?

I rode that at the end of the marmotte last year in +40c heat and I'm telling you now think more 10-11% doing it 6 times is plan stupid and dangerous.

meanredspider

itboffin wrote:

No offence intended matey but youve gone mad, 6 times??? No ******* way and where did you get 8% from?

I rode that at the end of the marmotte last year in +40c heat and I'm telling you now think more 10-11% doing it 6 times is plan stupid and dangerous.

8% is what Tacx reckons the average gradient is - I haven't checked. And it's called Alpe D'HuZes (the Zes bit) because you're meant to do it 6 times (see the logo on the link above). Some of my team mates have done it several times before.

But, yes, it's going to be incredibly tough - it wouldn't be much of a challenge if it weren't (shall I put you down for £100 ?)

Kieran_Burns

meanredspider wrote:

itboffin wrote:

No offence intended matey but youve gone mad, 6 times??? No ******* way and where did you get 8% from?

I rode that at the end of the marmotte last year in +40c heat and I'm telling you now think more 10-11% doing it 6 times is plan stupid and dangerous.

8% is what Tacx reckons the average gradient is - I haven't checked. And it's called Alpe D'HuZes (the Zes bit) because you're meant to do it 6 times (see the logo on the link above). Some of my team mates have done it several times before.

But, yes, it's going to be incredibly tough - it wouldn't be much of a challenge if it weren't (shall I put you down for £100 ?)

Can you put me down for your bike when they find you a gibbering mess on the road side?

meanredspider

Kieran_Burns wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

itboffin wrote:

No offence intended matey but youve gone mad, 6 times??? No ******* way and where did you get 8% from?

I rode that at the end of the marmotte last year in +40c heat and I'm telling you now think more 10-11% doing it 6 times is plan stupid and dangerous.

8% is what Tacx reckons the average gradient is - I haven't checked. And it's called Alpe D'HuZes (the Zes bit) because you're meant to do it 6 times (see the logo on the link above). Some of my team mates have done it several times before.

But, yes, it's going to be incredibly tough - it wouldn't be much of a challenge if it weren't (shall I put you down for £100 ?)

Can you put me down for your bike when they find you a gibbering mess on the road side?

That's most days of the week! Care in the Community isn't doing me much good obviously

The Scott Foil or the Volagi?

I'm taking the Volagi to France - I think a Standard crankset that the Foil has might be ambitious :shock: The Volagi is also a lot more comfortable and the discs might be useful for coming down again!

itboffin

Now I gave this advice to another old nutter on this forum the night before the marmotte

Get the biggest cassette you can run and run a compact or triple or die

meanredspider

itboffin wrote:

Now I gave this advice to another old nutter on this forum the night before the marmotte

Get the biggest cassette you can run and run a compact or triple or die

I think 28 is the biggest that will fit on the V's Di2 - I probably only need two gears 34/28 and 50/11

I've upped my "weight " on the Tacx turbo to 98kg and I'm not using the 30 I've got on the Tiagra on the turbo bike.

cjcp

Lose as much weight as you can. My worst I-haven't-a-scooby-doo-what's-happening-to-my-body moment came around turn 7 or 9 or somewhere. Near-complete systems failure.

And make sure you've got a 28 on the back.

Lose some more weight.

Take it steady, obviously - first three switchbacks are the steepest, iirc.

Did I say lose weight?

JG and I met a Dutch bloke who did it three times the day before Marmotte. Bonkers.

Seven to 7.5 hours of climbing?

Good luck!

cjcp

And inner tubes. You'll need those. Lots of them. Just in case your rims overheat on the descents and your tyre blows.

notsoblue

I'm around your weight, and did Alpe D'Huez this year. I'd recommend you lose as much weight as you can... It wouldn't be fun doing it 6 times a day, its hard enough doing 4 peaks in a day. You're making things very hard for yourself!

meanredspider

cjcp wrote:

And inner tubes. You'll need those. Lots of them. Just in case your rims overheat on the descents and your tyre blows.

Discs 8)

meanredspider

Yup - I plan to lose as much weight as possible.

The challenge is going to be balancing upping the fitness with losing weight. I know that sounds a little counter-intuitive but my nutritionist that is used last year said it's actually quite difficult to train at your best AND lose weight - the logic being you needed the calories to recover to be able to train.

I'm going to be working brutally hard on the Tacx and some real hills when I'm back in Scotland.

itboffin

nope its not hard to too lose weight and improve your performance if you're prepared to stop drinking booze and eating meat more than once a week, carbs are good but in small portions.

I lost 2 stone for the Marmotte (gained 1 since) and i intend to lose 2 more for the LBL if i was planning your mental challenge i'd go for 3 and that's not a joke.

rick_chasey

itboffin wrote:

nope its not hard to too lose weight and improve your performance if you're prepared to stop drinking booze and eating meat more than once a week, carbs are good but in small portions.

I lost 2 stone for the Marmotte (gained 1 since) and i intend to lose 2 more for the LBL if i was planning your mental challenge i'd go for 3 and that's not a joke.

LBL is bloody brutal too!

itboffin

Rick Chasey wrote:

itboffin wrote:

nope its not hard to too lose weight and improve your performance if you're prepared to stop drinking booze and eating meat more than once a week, carbs are good but in small portions.

I lost 2 stone for the Marmotte (gained 1 since) and i intend to lose 2 more for the LBL if i was planning your mental challenge i'd go for 3 and that's not a joke.

LBL is bloody brutal too!

indeed it is but so is riding the wilts hants lanes - again not a joke, i'm talking flooded roads, pot holes that would break a car, 50 mph winds, 1000ft hills and no roads without stinging climb after climb, plus the current freezing temps.

i'm happy that this is good training, for the marmotte i did two mallorca weeks of training in the sun, for this i have three months of the above aforementioned hell, the biggest problem will be the distance

meanredspider

itboffin wrote:

nope its not hard to too lose weight and improve your performance if you're prepared to stop drinking booze and eating meat more than once a week, carbs are good but in small portions.

I lost 2 stone for the Marmotte (gained 1 since) and i intend to lose 2 more for the LBL if i was planning your mental challenge i'd go for 3 and that's not a joke.

If I'm not eating meat and only small portions of carbs, what am I eating? Mountains of fish and butter?

My nutritionalist put me on loads of lean meat - chicken, turkey and venison mostly - more than I could possibly manage - oh, and eggs. For carbs, I was allowed porridge.

I'm not saying you can't improve performance but his point (which makes sense) is that it's hard to replenish your glycogen properly if you're running a calorie deficit and it's hard to train hard if you're running a glycogen deficit.

bobtbuilder

Meanredspider - that is some challenge. Chapeau sir, and best of luck.

I've done it twice in one day and although I could have done a third if absolutely necessary, it would have been unpleasant. No way I could have done it 6 times.

I think others have covered off the lose weight issue.

From your other charity rides I assume you are adept at keeping your food & drink intake up to fuel the big rides.

My two cents: Do some turbo sessions around threshold but elevate the front wheel a good 10-12" to simulate a decent gradient. I go to the Alps or Pyrenees every year and even when my legs are ready for the climbs, my lower back isn't. A lot of climbing places additional stress on your lower back muscles.

cjcp

bobtbuilder wrote:

Meanredspider - that is some challenge. Chapeau sir, and best of luck.

I've done it twice in one day and although I could have done a third if absolutely necessary, it would have been unpleasant. No way I could have done it 6 times.

I think others have covered off the lose weight issue.

From your other charity rides I assume you are adept at keeping your food & drink intake up to fuel the big rides.

My two cents: Do some turbo sessions around threshold but elevate the front wheel a good 10-12" to simulate a decent gradient. I go to the Alps or Pyrenees every year and even when my legs are ready for the climbs, my lower back isn't. A lot of climbing places additional stress on your lower back muscles.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Yes, core work is essential for this obscene challenge

Multiple turbo sessions in one day are also a good stress-test. And I know mention training in the hills, but intensity training on the flats will do the world of good. (All of this was imparted to me by JG.)

meanredspider

bobtbuilder wrote:

My two cents: Do some turbo sessions around threshold but elevate the front wheel a good 10-12" to simulate a decent gradient. I go to the Alps or Pyrenees every year and even when my legs are ready for the climbs, my lower back isn't. A lot of climbing places additional stress on your lower back muscles.

This is an interesting piece of advice - thanks. I was thinking during my last turbo session (2hr40m of pretty much solid "climbing") if there are any bike geometry changes I could make that might help - like shuffling the saddle forward and maybe even dipping the nose slightly to maintain its support position relative to the pedals and gravity. The thought was triggered by looking at downhill MTBs

meanredspider

Anybody recommend people who can put together training plans? I feel like I probably need something pretty structured and also tailored to my circumstances - not least of all the complete lack of hills around here!

greg66_tri_v2.0

I'm tempted to suggest that there is no training plan that will prepare you adequately for this, outside riding alpine climbs multiple times a day.

As CJ said, have a 28 on the back. Maybe have one on the front too.

Average 8% is, well, either optimistic or misleading, depending on your PoV. I suppose there are some 5% patches near the top, but by the time you get there you're absolutely toasted and in no fit state to take advantage of them.

FWIW, having ridden the Tacx (real life DVDs plus the Genius) extensively in preparation for the Marmotte and IMC last year, I'd say that it struggles to simulate properly gradients above 10%, although it compensates in other ways. I found real Frenchie 12%+ to be more like riding the Tacx with the rear brakes on. Or dragging a 25kg bag of cement.

The compensation is the timing though - I found it will overestimate your real life climbing time by 6-10%.

The first four (maybe five) ramps on the Alpe are brutal - like riding up a ladder. You certainly don't get the full on experience on the Tacx...

<Mr Burns voice>

I shall watch this thread with interest.

iPete

Did the mighty Olympic route of Box Hill 5 times once. Would this one be harder?

bigmat

I didn't find the Alpe too bad, first few switchbacks are pretty steep but then it levels off and its actually a nice climb after that - obviously tough, but you can really sense the history of the place with the stage winner names on each corner, and counting the numbered switchbacks helps you keep track of progress. 6 times is a real challenge, but is it that much more than the climbing in the Marmotte, for example? The big challenge might be the repetetiveness of it all. The first climb will be fine, and the last there'll be a light at the end of the tunnel at least, but the middle 4 ascents there's a real risk that you'll just feel like you're pedalling through treacle forever with no end in sight.

Pacing will also be an issue - I'd suggest you build in a bit of active recovery time in the valleys, as its surprising how quickly you can descend and also how little recovery you get (descending can put real strain on your joints I find) - I wouldn't fancy riding the Alpe, coming down then going straight back up again - maybe once, but 6 times would destroy anybody.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

itboffin wrote:

Now I gave this advice to another old nutter on this forum the night before the marmotte

Get the biggest cassette you can run and run a compact or triple or die

I think 28 is the biggest that will fit on the V's Di2 - I probably only need two gears 34/28 and 50/11

I made an 11-29 for the Alps and came to the conclusion I just needed a couple of gears at either end!

I've not done the Alp D'huez but I understand it to be one of the easier ones due to the generous expanse of the hairpins allowing some rest - so I'm sure you wo't be stuck in 34-28 all the time! I did find that the 29 on the likes of Joux Plane was enough to keep me in my normal cadence zone most of the time - which is all you need.

Personally, I'd bung a compact on the Scott and a bigger cassette on it (presume that isn't Di2 as well?). Climbing is for light bikes and rim brakes will be fine. You could always flip the stem if you felt that that might improve comfort though I find that it is the flat that highlights any discomfort rather than hills.

And good luck with it!

Kieran_Burns

I can loan you a Madone with a 30/28 bottom gear (Dura Ace so you aren't slumming it) I'm beginning to think you're going to need it

Oh, and if you are looking for a low fat protein intake - don't use any meat at all and look at veggie options.. purer form of proteins anyway.

meanredspider

Thanks for all of the input! I appreciate all the guidance. The one cycling friend who know about these climbs weighs sub-60kg and has blood chemistry that would make the best dopers weep. He often wears a KoM jersey and it's hard to argue with - especially on a guy in his mid-50s.

Interesting views on the Tacx. I think you're right about the steeper climbs - Honister Pass (which gets to 20%) doesn't feel realistic at all. At least the Alpine climbs are reasonably even at around 10%. A guy in the biggest bike shop (seemingly) in Amsterdam was laughing about British climbs saying he wondered how the Tarmac didn't just slide down!

Another Dutch guy said he found riding some of the long straight level rides in strong wind was good preparation - not so much for the legs but mentally. Riding dead straight into the wind for 2 hours he said is great mental preparation for the constant climbs.

I've done a few mentally demanding challenges. The Puffer was very hard with the additional pressure of being part of a relay team and needing to go fast so as not to let the rest of the team down in the race. But, compared to getting my son through his cancer treatment, these things are a walk in the park mentally.

The Foil is Di2 too. There's no a huge weight difference between the two bikes. I'll decide nearer the day as to which I take. We're there for the week with a couple of training rides on the first two days. That will help tune whatever kit I take.

I think the priority for now though is getting the weight off me.

meanredspider

Kieran_Burns wrote:

I can loan you a Madone with a 30/28 bottom gear (Dura Ace so you aren't slumming it) I'm beginning to think you're going to need it

Oh, and if you are looking for a low fat protein intake - don't use any meat at all and look at veggie options.. purer form of proteins anyway.

Thanks for the offer KB - let me see how I'm feeling nearer the time!

Any guidance on food is very welcome too - especially simple tasty recipes

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rolf F wrote:

I've not done the Alp D'huez but I understand it to be one of the easier ones due to the generous expanse of the hairpins allowing some rest

Ha!

The "generous expanse of the hairpins" allows a ton of rest. If you get off any sit on the low concrete wall for 5 mins to get your HR back in the 100s.

(To be fair, I think ITB made some ludicrous and frankly unbelievable claim that he had kicked it up a couple of gears on each hairpin, recovered, and then shifted down again as he set about the next one).

The trouble with it is that the first few ramps kick straight into double digit percentages within a few feet of the exit of the hairpin - it's like riding over a hinge in the road. IIRC the first kicks to 11, but the third or fourth kicks to 14. For me, there is a percentage at which I am comfortable and once the gradient ticks up a further point i cease to be comfortable. It's like night and day. And that threshold point is not in the teens.

YMMV.

rjsterry

On a forum not renowned for its collective common sense, I admire your attempt to make a break off the front and set new levels of self induced discomfort. Is there any way you can get seconded to a Swiss branch office by your employer?

Aside from dropping some weight, I've heard that suggestion before about long rides into the wind being good prep for Alpine climbs. As for bike position, if the steepest bit is 14%, that's about 1 in 7. The wheelbase of your bike is what, 1.5m? So 1 in 7 gradient means 1.5/7 = ~21cm rise for the front wheel or about 15cm if you are going on the average gradient. Might be difficult to keep a Tacx stable like that.

Kieran_Burns

I'd send you a PM but the system is borked. I'll draft a response about how to replace the fat laden cr4p you presently eat with some low fat options

meanredspider

Yes - the design of the Tacx doesn't lend itself to being tipped up - especially as I have the steering frame version (which I suppose I could dispense with). Maybe I'd be better buying a cheap door and propping that up. Mind you, the floor in my Dutch flat has quite an alarming slope in it already!

The challenge got slightly bigger this morning as I weighed myself and found I'm a depressing 95kg. That's actually about par for the course at this time of year but I would like to shift 10kg. Thai chicken soup and salad for lunch.