What is your best FTP gain in 12 weeks ?

nammynake

I've recently started training with power (Wahoo Kickr) and will be following a training plan on TrainerRoad. I haven't chosen all my events this year but the first proper test is the Fred Whitton in May. Obviously there are many variables such as genetics, training volume and variety but what would a 'typical' FTP gain be in 3 months time? I know that's a bit 'how long is a piece of string', but I'm only after a ballpark figure.

Current FTP is 246 W (3.8 W/kg).

Would 300 W be achievable in 12 weeks? That's just an arbitrary number, but I like round numbers! I weigh 65kg and carry maybe 2-3 kg of easy to lose fat, but don't have much excess.

amaferanga

You may get to 300W easily or it could simply be impossible for you.

olake92

Depending on the factors that you mention, I think it's perfectly reasonable.

You highlight variety, conversely, I would highlight lack of variety as key to improving your FTP. For instance, improving your anaerobic energy systems will provide limited benefit to your threshold power. You can obviously train other aspects of your cycling should you wish, but specificity is key; to improve your FTP, train at FTP.

xavierdisley

olake92 wrote:

Depending on the factors that you mention, I think it's perfectly reasonable.

You highlight variety, conversely, I would highlight lack of variety as key to improving your FTP. For instance, improving your anaerobic energy systems will provide limited benefit to your threshold power. You can obviously train other aspects of your cycling should you wish, but specificity is key; to improve your FTP, train at FTP.

The body responds best to varied stressors. Training at FTP - what happens if your FTP increases as a result of training at FTP, do you continue to train at FTP? How often do you retest, and therefore what % of time will you actually be spending <FTP if you've improved? I would not recommend that as a training strategy at all, you will stagnate and not improve as much as with a varied program.

A jump to 300w sounds like a lot, if you're untrained it could be doable but there's no point setting targets or limits, just try and get it as high as you can! 8)

Xav

napoleond

If you are concerned with increasing FTP then I suggest the following workout plan

3 times a week do 4x10 min intervals with 5 mins recovery between intervals.

Do the first session at 85% FTP then increase by, say, 2% each session.

Do a longer ride 1-2 days a week too.

Boring as hell. Will really target FTP but not much else. But VERY effective at increasing FTP.

NUFCrichard

A jump to 300w sounds like a lot, if you're untrained it could be doable but there's no point setting targets or limits, just try and get it as high as you can! 8)
Xav

If he has a FTP of 3.8W/kg, I think he is probably quite well trained!
If you lose your 2-3KG and get to 300W you will have a 4.8 W/KG FTP.. That would be very good for a normal person.

xavierdisley

Yes, it was a subtle reference to quite what a jump it would be

Xav

milese

I did 30 watts in 8 weeks, but I'm pretty sure that a significant proportion of that was down to being better at testing (and the addition of a fan) rather than actually being stronger.

IE, your first ever 20 minute interval is always going to be less than your 2nd and 3rd ever intervals.

olake92

xavierdisley wrote:

...what happens if your FTP increases as a result of training at FTP, do you continue to train at FTP? How often do you retest, and therefore what % of time will you actually be spending <FTP if you've improved? I would not recommend that as a training strategy at all, you will stagnate and not improve as much as with a varied program.

I recommend retesting every 4 weeks with a 20 min power test. Furthermore, increasing the power output each session is important, I like to go up 5 watts each week, but it's a personal thing. NapoleonD took the words out of my mouth:

NapoleonD wrote:

If you are concerned with increasing FTP then I suggest the following workout plan

3 times a week do 4x10 min intervals with 5 mins recovery between intervals.

Do the first session at 85% FTP then increase by, say, 2% each session.

Do a longer ride 1-2 days a week too.

Boring as hell. Will really target FTP but not much else. But VERY effective at increasing FTP.

My fault for not being more specific in my OP.

milese

Whats the different on impact of FTP improvements on doing

8 x 5mins
4 x 10minutes
2 x 20mins
or doing a 3 hour ride that, when you get home and upload, shows that you've spent 40 minutes in Z4?

On the turbo I would do those 40 minutes as 2 x 20min, but outside its hard to find a road that allows 20mins, but 10 minute sections are much more realistic.

Is cumulative time in a zone equally as benefical, irrespective of the length of interval?

olake92

Milese wrote:

On the turbo I would do those 40 minutes as 2 x 20min, but outside its hard to find a road that allows 20mins, but 10 minute sections are much more realistic.

Is cumulative time in a zone equally as benefical, irrespective of the length of interval?

I do exactly the same and have still seen substantial gains.

I'm not sure of the relationship between length of interval and the cumulative time at a given interval. I imagine that as long as it's not silly (eg 80 x 30 seconds) it's OK to do a shorter interval for the same cumulative work. I find that a 20 minute interval helps me psychologically as well as physically; getting used to the discomfort is quite useful.

I'd happily take some advice from a sports scientist though.

cougie

I think I'm running about 40 - 50W higher than I was 8 weeks ago. I need to retest as my last FTP test cocked up. I just followed the trainerroad 40km TT plan - I presume that's pretty focused on raising your FTP ?

All depends on your starting level though. I wasn't training properly at the beginning.

buckles

Milese wrote:

...or doing a 3 hour ride that, when you get home and upload, shows that you've spent 40 minutes in Z4?
....
Is cumulative time in a zone equally as benefical, irrespective of the length of interval?

Time in zone is a bit of a red herring, you could spend 40 minutes at threshold but each could be 15 seconds x 160 with loads of recovery in between. However you need to be doing a continuous effort for x amount of time.

The length of the interval (and/or the amount of recovery between intervals) is important. From what I've read you need to do at least 10mins at threshold per interval to stimulate adaptation

xavierdisley

olake92 wrote:

I recommend retesting every 4 weeks with a 20 min power test. Furthermore, increasing the power output each session is important, I like to go up 5 watts each week, but it's a personal thing. NapoleonD took the words out of my mouth:

My fault for not being more specific in my OP.

Ah I thought you meant exclusively training at FTP and not above or below.

I think there's often a bit of confusion about improving FTP, and people do go a bit mad for "sweetspot". It's always important to understand that you're attempting to cause physiological adaptations through training, and you can bring about these adaptations in a variety of different ways - you have to look further than just what the power number says on the screen and understand what the session is doing to your body. Otherwise yes, everyone would just train at their FTP.

In terms of time in zone, if you're looking to train the aerobic system you need to make sure that the work done within any interval you're doing is being provided by energy from the aerobic system. So for extended efforts FTP and beblow >5min really otherwise the contribution of anaerobic work is a little high. The rest period will also influence how much anaerobic contribution occurs also.

Xav

napoleond

cougie wrote:

I think I'm running about 40 - 50W higher than I was 8 weeks ago. I need to retest as my last FTP test cocked up. I just followed the trainerroad 40km TT plan - I presume that's pretty focused on raising your FTP ?

All depends on your starting level though. I wasn't training properly at the beginning.

Yeah that's pretty much an FTP dedicated plan

nammynake

Thanks for the comments so far. In terms of my background I've got a reasonable base that I've built up over 2 years but was off the bike for 4 months from July to October following a crash so it's taking some time to build up my fitness again.

I've managed some weekend rides during January but I've only recently started back on the turbo, specifically doing 2x20 workouts.

I clearly need to do plenty more research and really target my training towards certain goals. Maybe I'll give racing a go, but at this stage I'm happy getting fit and completing some of the tougher sportives. I was supposed to do the Marmotte last year but my crash was just 3 days before the event. Bloody annoying given the training I did !

I was 63kg last summer so will definitely get there in the next month or two without any changes to diet, so that's going to help my W/kg (I like hilly routes) and any power gains will only add to this.

Barbarossa

I would suggest 10% in 12 weeks is a realistic improvement.

phreak

If your FTP is taken as your 1hr max, why would you not train by doing 1hr max sessions rather than 2x20 sessions at lower than FTP levels?

napoleond

It's bloody hard and you risk overtraining/burn out. If you 'push it up' from below you will be more likely to be consistent.

neeb

I've increased by 5w in the last 3 weeks and thought that was pretty good (consistently doing 2x20s 5w higher with exactly the same HR profile). If I managed 20w in 12 weeks (i.e. continued at that rate) I'd be very, very happy. People seem to be different though, my variation in response to training (and de-training) seems to be less than some people's.

Tom Dean

What is the significance of 12 weeks?

okgo

SPORTIVE SEASON!!!!!1111111

Dodger747

In just over 7 weeks using a Trainerroad plan, I've increased my FTP by 25.5% or 51 watts.

neeb

Dodger747 wrote:

In just over 7 weeks using a Trainerroad plan, I've increased my FTP by 25.5% or 51 watts.

Dodger747 wrote:

W/kg - 4.9

You weigh 51kg?

nammynake

As above, 12 weeks until the Fred Whitton. I wanted to go sub-7 hours.

Dodger747

neeb wrote:

Dodger747 wrote:

In just over 7 weeks using a Trainerroad plan, I've increased my FTP by 25.5% or 51 watts.

Dodger747 wrote:

W/kg - 4.9

You weigh 51kg?

No 58kg now, that's an old figure from a few years ago. My w/kg last week was 4.32 so still some way to go from my top.

I am a skinny thing though, I really struggle to put any weight on.

Tom Dean

nammynake wrote:

As above, 12 weeks until the Fred Whitton. I wanted to go sub-7 hours.

I make it nearly 15 weeks from when you started the thread. - which makes your FTP target a bit more achievable at least!

As above I would say don't get hung up on a target power. Get your training right and do what you can.

ozzzyosborn206

I would say the main thing limiting your gain is what kind of condition you were in when you tested? If you had just come off a month of no training having been at a high level before then, then you will easily improve it alot just because you will be lacking fitness. Likewise if you were in good condition it will be harder to add much on it. Also I do not know what the Fred Whitten is like, but don't get hung up on FTP, if you have to do lots of >5min hills you need to make sure you can ride those and ride above your ftp for short durations otherwise you will cook yourself.

nammynake

Yeah I'm planning to a mixture of threshold sessions and also
harder/shorter intervals on the turbo, and a long weekend hilly ride.

FatTed

If the OP did a V02 max test would this give some sense of where his FTP is ie 80% or 70% of I guess what is theoretically achievable?

Tom Dean

No.