Doping: Winners (and Losers)

135

Comments

  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I might put Cav in as a big winner. I cannot imagine that he would have been so successful in a 90's supercharged peleton without crossing the Rubicon himself. He's managed to get through enough TdF's to win on the Champs 4 times and the Green Jersey once. would he have been able to do that 15-20 years ago without going to the dark side?
    @JaunePeril

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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I accept your points but also that there's a time and a place for Pantani chat and this isnt it. I'm sure it ll come up soon enough.

    You re crushing this game YP - cav is another great shout - no fake, no fake! ;)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I might put Cav in as a big winner. I cannot imagine that he would have been so successful in a 90's supercharged peloton without crossing the Rubicon himself. He's managed to get through enough TdF's to win on the Champs 4 times and the Green Jersey once. would he have been able to do that 15-20 years ago without going to the dark side?

    That's a great call.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Vino ,,,gold medal. Winner.
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?

    There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...


    Yeh, the vast majority here enjoy the racing. Its what makes this forum different from a lot of the shoot other forums where some are doping obsessives...

    Fair enough, don't contribute ... You couldn't have been fooled by the title ...

    There's been some decent points and discussion so far and tbh you bringing your negativity into things doesn't help ... If it doesn't suit the boys (and girl) club mentality you're keen to foster then just ignore it and do your own thing ...
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Simpson,,,loser
  • Crankbrother
    Crankbrother Posts: 1,695
    rayjay wrote:
    Vino ,,,gold medal. Winner.

    His nationality made him a winner, they even let him ride around wearing a jersey with his own face on it ...
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    On the whole post about losers have been more interesting than those about winners, I have to say.

    There's the obvious losers, Pantani, Vandenbroucke, Draaijer, Oosterbosch. Ricco came close

    Then there's the riders who, preferred to quit the sport they had build their future on rather than do what most did. The well-known like Bassons, but also people like Edwig Van Hooijdonck and Eddy Bouwmans; there must have been plenty
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,547
    I was thinking about Bouwmans the other day, FJS, and was wondering if he quit because of his attitude towards doping. Is that the case, that he retired rather than join in the EPO arms race?
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    andyp wrote:
    I was thinking about Bouwmans the other day, FJS, and was wondering if he quit because of his attitude towards doping. Is that the case, that he retired rather than join in the EPO arms race?

    Pretty much. He won the white jersey in his first TdF in 92 at 23 years old, the Classique des Alps in '93. He was given EPO by the team doctor on team orders in 94, but decided he didn't want to continue with it after one month, and didn't get any results afterwards. Rode 2 years for a domestic team and quit in 97. Bassons was never going to be a Tour winner, but Bouwmans could have been
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?

    There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...


    Yeh, the vast majority here enjoy the racing. Its what makes this forum different from a lot of the shoot other forums where some are doping obsessives...

    Fair enough, don't contribute ... You couldn't have been fooled by the title ...

    There's been some decent points and discussion so far and tbh you bringing your negativity into things doesn't help ... If it doesn't suit the boys (and girl) club mentality you're keen to foster then just ignore it and do your own thing ...

    To be honest Crankbrother, as soon as I saw the title I just thought FFS, not ANOTHER doping thread. I thought that's why the off season doping latrine thread was started? I personally find it negative that every discussion descends in to doping talk. That's not what I enjoy about the sport but some people (Not the majority) seem to be absolutely obsessed with the issue and try and shoehorn it in to any discussion.
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  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    edited January 2014
    SCA Promotions were a bit of a loser. TBC.

    David Walsh - a winner. Without the doping he wouldn't be as well known at all.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited January 2014
    Crankbrother wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Paul 8v wrote:
    I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?

    There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...


    Yeh, the vast majority here enjoy the racing. Its what makes this forum different from a lot of the shoot other forums where some are doping obsessives...

    Fair enough, don't contribute ... You couldn't have been fooled by the title ...

    There's been some decent points and discussion so far and tbh you bringing your negativity into things doesn't help ... If it doesn't suit the boys (and girl) club mentality you're keen to foster then just ignore it and do your own thing ...


    Probably best you dont try to lecture anyone about negativity, especially with your particular brand of negativity cut through with breathtaking spite
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Why does everyone get het up. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and unfortunately there is no right and no wrong as no-one knows the truth except for the riders themselves and their doctors.
  • chrisday
    chrisday Posts: 300
    Joelsim wrote:
    Why does everyone get het up. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and unfortunately there is no right and no wrong as no-one knows the truth except for the riders themselves and their doctors.

    It's NOT the opinions that get everyone het up, it's:
    • the way they're being presented
    • the relentless snideness and patronising manner
    • the paucity of evidence, despite the popularity of the word FACT
    • the way everything seems to come from a perspective of "I have decided Sky are dirty, and will view everything through that lens"
    • the lack of actual debating going on, just lots of statement and FACTs, then some snide comments about fanbois, Sky-lovers or just ignoring contrary points
    But most of all - the way a small handful of seemingly obsessive posters have turned what has been a friendly, interesting, varied forum (for years) into a single-issue rant-fest. It's not fun any more, and aside from any seeking of TRUTH or FACT, the main reason most of us are here is because we like cycling and find it (and discussing it) fun.
    This Sky-obsessed crap is the opposite of fun.

    Please feel free to dive in with some stuff about ostriches now.

    (To be completely fair, Joelsim, you are not one of the main offenders in terms of tone, etc., but you've kopped it because you asked the question!)
    @shraap | My Men 2016: G, Yogi, Cav, Boonen, Degenkolb, Martin, J-Rod, Kudus, Chaves
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    I'd say Indurain is the greatest winner... he won big in the EPO era and nobody has ever had a bad word to say about him... he was really good at being good to others and it paid off
    left the forum March 2023
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    chrisday wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Why does everyone get het up. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and unfortunately there is no right and no wrong as no-one knows the truth except for the riders themselves and their doctors.

    It's NOT the opinions that get everyone het up, it's:
    • the way they're being presented
    • the relentless snideness and patronising manner
    • the paucity of evidence, despite the popularity of the word FACT
    • the way everything seems to come from a perspective of "I have decided Sky are dirty, and will view everything through that lens"
    • the lack of actual debating going on, just lots of statement and FACTs, then some snide comments about fanbois, Sky-lovers or just ignoring contrary points
    But most of all - the way a small handful of seemingly obsessive posters have turned what has been a friendly, interesting, varied forum (for years) into a single-issue rant-fest. It's not fun any more, and aside from any seeking of TRUTH or FACT, the main reason most of us are here is because we like cycling and find it (and discussing it) fun.
    This Sky-obsessed crap is the opposite of fun.

    Please feel free to dive in with some stuff about ostriches now.

    (To be completely fair, Joelsim, you are not one of the main offenders in terms of tone, etc., but you've kopped it because you asked the question!)

    I completely understand what you are saying, you ostrich ha ha.

    But seriously, all of us on here love the sport. I agree that some of it goes too far, my beliefs are well publicised and that's where there is a tiny gain to be made then there will be some cheats. Witness the number of cyclists with asthma...is that cheating?

    Being anti-Sky does seem a bit silly though. Unfortunately it's the Big Sam school of cycling where it's all about numbers and perceived effectiveness (in addition to making sure every single factor that could have an influence is looked at, and having the budget to do that unlike most teams). Personally I think they have had their best days now and they are being found out. They were nowhere near as dominant in 2013 as they were in 2012, Froome excepted.

    I guess we'll see how they perform this year. No doubt Dave B will shove this post right royally up my backside.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I'd say Indurain is the greatest winner... he won big in the EPO era and nobody has ever had a bad word to say about him... he was really good at being good to others and it paid off

    He also won the Tour a couple of times before EPO hit, unless of course he had prior access to the rest of the peloton. The fact that he continued winning post 93 does suggest something though.
  • MartinGT
    MartinGT Posts: 475
    ddraver wrote:
    MartinGT wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.

    Good shout that :(

    RIP Panta.

    I really know this is childish and pointless but I'm going to throw the Voight cr*p right back atcha - So it's ok to accuse villify and denegrate a team with no evidence of doping at all, but your happy to laud and respect a confirmed, tested drug cheat?

    To anyone else - this is the total hypocracy that winds us up...

    If Froome was killed tomorrow or took his own life I wouldnt dance a jig of joy.

    Cycling and cycle racing is not the be all and end all my friend. What happend to Pantani was an utter tragedy to someone who (unlike Froome) actually lit up races and raced with his heart and soul (again unlike Froome).

    Well done, you have found your way onto my ignore list.

    Oh, and please tell me, when did Panta fail a drugs test? Oh, he didnt!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,310
    Joelsim wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I'd say Indurain is the greatest winner... he won big in the EPO era and nobody has ever had a bad word to say about him... he was really good at being good to others and it paid off

    He also won the Tour a couple of times before EPO hit, unless of course he had prior access to the rest of the peloton. The fact that he continued winning post 93 does suggest something though.

    EPO was around before 93... rumours of Chiappucci having a red cell count around 60% in his golden years have been around for a while
    left the forum March 2023
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    I like the way that you now think failing a test is what's important...

    So basically If Froome attacked a bit more you'd give him a free pass on the doping then? Interesting...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    You can blame power meters for that too. Froome still managed to win the Tour last year even though his teammates had fallen by the wayside on several occasions.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    I thought Froome's attack on Ventoux proved he was doping.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Has anyone mentioned all the other riders who died in the early EPO years?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I thought Froome's attack on Ventoux proved he was doping.

    It wouldn't surprise me if he was.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Joelsim wrote:
    Has anyone mentioned all the other riders who died in the early EPO years?

    No, I almost posted "The ultimate losers" but I cant help feeling they brought it on themselves a little... #contraversial
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    ddraver wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Has anyone mentioned all the other riders who died in the early EPO years?

    No, I almost posted "The ultimate losers" but I cant help feeling they brought it on themselves a little... #contraversial

    That is the risk you take for sure, especially with something new.

    But there are plenty of winners in every sport. Linford, Carl Lewis, Mo Farah etc. And it is my belief that they were/are all doing it.

    As Dick Pound has stated many a time, there is no point in testing at the Games, by then anyone who gets caught is simply an idiot.
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    I'd say Indurain is the greatest winner... he won big in the EPO era and nobody has ever had a bad word to say about him... he was really good at being good to others and it paid off

    He also won the Tour a couple of times before EPO hit, unless of course he had prior access to the rest of the peloton. The fact that he continued winning post 93 does suggest something though.

    EPO was around before 93... rumours of Chiappucci having a red cell count around 60% in his golden years have been around for a while

    Ferrari worked with Conconi in the 80's
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Just done a wiki...riders who have worked with Ferrari,,,,, Lance Armstrong, Michael Rogers, Alexander Vinokourov, Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Giovanni Visconti, Yaroslav Popovych, Alessandro Bertolini, Gianluca Bortolami, Gianni Bugno, Mario Cipollini, Claudio Chiappucci, Cadel Evans, Armand de Las Cuevas, Fernando Escartín, Gianni Faresin, Giorgio Furlan, Ivan Gotti, Andreas Kappes, Kevin Livingston, Eddy Mazzoleni, Axel Merckx, Thomas Dekker, Abraham Olano, Daniele Pontoni, Tony Rominger, Paolo Savoldelli, Filippo Simeoni, Pavel Tonkov, Enrico Zaina and Beat Zberg.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    chrisday wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Why does everyone get het up. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and unfortunately there is no right and no wrong as no-one knows the truth except for the riders themselves and their doctors.

    It's NOT the opinions that get everyone het up, it's:
    • the way they're being presented
    • the relentless snideness and patronising manner
    • the paucity of evidence, despite the popularity of the word FACT
    • the way everything seems to come from a perspective of "I have decided Sky are dirty, and will view everything through that lens"
    • the lack of actual debating going on, just lots of statement and FACTs, then some snide comments about fanbois, Sky-lovers or just ignoring contrary points
    But most of all - the way a small handful of seemingly obsessive posters have turned what has been a friendly, interesting, varied forum (for years) into a single-issue rant-fest. It's not fun any more, and aside from any seeking of TRUTH or FACT, the main reason most of us are here is because we like cycling and find it (and discussing it) fun.
    This Sky-obsessed crap is the opposite of fun.

    Please feel free to dive in with some stuff about ostriches now.

    (To be completely fair, Joelsim, you are not one of the main offenders in terms of tone, etc., but you've kopped it because you asked the question!)

    I'd agree that this is the case on many of the other threads but this one hasn't had much Sky reference (other than, ironically, people criticising it as another thread having a pop at Sky) and I feel it's been quite a decent debate so far - I've even been reading posts by people on my blocked list! Of course, this could all change once a certain other poster wakes up!!

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