Doping: Winners (and Losers)
Comments
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Yellow Peril wrote:David Walsh now a big winner and reaping returns for years of being beaten by Armstrong's stick. Unfortunately Kimmage lost his way. He should have been a big winner but lost some credibility just at the wrong time.
Those are both great examples ... I'm especially interested in how Kimmage's blinkered pursuit undone him in the end as his own ego grew trying to combat LA's ...0 -
WTF. Why not just re name the Pro Racing part of this forum. "I hate Sky and I know they are doping".
Time for me to find a forum that discusses cycle racing, I think.0 -
Same with Vayer. He was a PE teacher whose only connection with the pros was being used as front for Festina's doping until Le Mode wanted some ropey statistical analysis.Paulie W wrote:Digger Forum - there's a fella who has enjoyed the rich spotlight of 'fame' because of doping!Twitter: @RichN950 -
Are people really suggesting Lemond as a winner from the blood-doping era? :roll:Crankbrother wrote:We're talking about those who have gained from others doping ... As another example other than Slipstream ... Greg Lemond has more relevance now than he did before (look how he shoehorned himself into the Landis debacle) ....0 -
ddraver wrote:So where do we put Armstrong?
He would nt be the enigma he is without doping but at the same tiem it's crashing down around him...
Same question for Tyler and Floyd except the timeline is reversed
Good question. I'm going to say winner although reduced from where he was pre exposure. I suspect he'll remain a wealthy man, it's more of a matter of whether he can manage his own expectations in terms of being famous for his notoriety as opposed to his sporting success.
Hamilton I would say is probably neutral. He's come through the period of shame and has a little vindication following the armstrong downfall and some good book revenue. In fact his sort of Armstrong victim persona makes him a mini winner.
Landis I would say is still probably a loser. He fell big time with the removal of his TdF title and his attempts to prove his innocence would have made Ricco blush. Spending good money after bad I think has left him broke.0 -
mike6 wrote:WTF. Why not just re name the Pro Racing part of this forum. "I hate Sky and I know they are doping".
Time for me to find a forum that discusses cycle racing, I think.
Mike, the sensible folks haven't been using the naughty word ... So don't try to drag things down through the back door ...0 -
I might throw German cycling in as a big loser and really by that top level pro cycling itself. The downfall of T mobile and Gerolsteiner took the appetite for cycling away from the Germans in terms of sponsorship. Bearing in mind they are the strongest European economy the lack of financial input from them is a big loss for cycling.
I'd like to think there is someone in Germany considering putting together a team and financially backing it along the same lines as Greenedge and anyother well financed and well drilled team you might care to think of. You'd think that approach would suit the German psyche...like a Golf.0 -
Winner = Aaron Brown, there was all that money oh but um then there was that lawsuit... so maybe...
Loser = Aaron Brown.Correlation is not causation.0 -
Above The Cows wrote:Winner = Aaron Brown, there was all that money oh but um then there was that lawsuit... so maybe...
Loser = Aaron Brown.
Ha! he was the UCI Overlord guy wasn't he? I would put him down as a winner on the basis that he really did have his 15 minutes of fame and was a nobody that became a somebody through the power of social media.0 -
Yellow Peril wrote:I might throw German cycling in as a big loser and really by that top level pro cycling itself. The downfall of T mobile and Gerolsteiner took the appetite for cycling away from the Germans in terms of sponsorship. Bearing in mind they are the strongest European economy the lack of financial input from them is a big loss for cycling.
I'd like to think there is someone in Germany considering putting together a team and financially backing it along the same lines as Greenedge and anyother well financed and well drilled team you might care to think of. You'd think that approach would suit the German psyche...like a Golf.
How many German cyclists are there at WT level? Although the ones I can think of are very, very good (Martin, Degenkolb, Kittell, Greipel) ... They would get a fair few wins with that lot on the same team ...0 -
Yellow Peril wrote:Above The Cows wrote:Winner = Aaron Brown, there was all that money oh but um then there was that lawsuit... so maybe...
Loser = Aaron Brown.
Ha! he was the UCI Overlord guy wasn't he? I would put him down as a winner on the basis that he really did have his 15 minutes of fame and was a nobody that became a somebody through the power of social media.
He was/is UCI Overlord indeed. Winner in that he had his 15 minutes of fame, winner in that he allegedly managed to get his mitts on the Kimmage Fund money, but could be a big loser if he has to pay it all back and doesn't have it.Correlation is not causation.0 -
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Crankbrother wrote:Yellow Peril wrote:I might throw German cycling in as a big loser and really by that top level pro cycling itself. The downfall of T mobile and Gerolsteiner took the appetite for cycling away from the Germans in terms of sponsorship. Bearing in mind they are the strongest European economy the lack of financial input from them is a big loss for cycling.
I'd like to think there is someone in Germany considering putting together a team and financially backing it along the same lines as Greenedge and anyother well financed and well drilled team you might care to think of. You'd think that approach would suit the German psyche...like a Golf.
How many German cyclists are there at WT level? Although the ones I can think of are very, very good (Martin, Degenkolb, Kittell, Greipel) ... They would get a fair few wins with that lot on the same team ...
Not sure but I suppose if you make the German riders the core of a German sponsored team it's pretty much mission accomplished. Perhaps targetting the Green jerseys for a couple of seasons and maybe riding for Degenkolb in a few one weekers.0 -
The Gweiss energy bunnies, Tricky Virenque, Alex Zulle, Claudio Chiapucci, but please, please, nobody mention Miguel Indurain, or else Deejay will make the Sky debate seem like a pacifist's convention."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0
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Winners:
Trek and Oakley
Losers
The riders that were not on the juice. Fans of the sport believing they were watching x and it turned out to be y. The sponors that pulled their support due to the shitshow.0 -
There haven't been any winners“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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I've never gotten myself involved either in the doping arguments, or even bothering to form a definite opinion on SKY PRO TEAM.Joelsim wrote:
But this statement is quite astonishing.... "Where has Voight tested positive?[/quote]
He hasn't. But it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that he has doped now is it?[/quote]"
So..... you're prepared to tarnish a very long standing pro's reputation simply because he was riding in that era?
Despite the fact that he has never tested positive or been mentioned in other such scandals (like operacion p and the likes).
Quite shameful what some of the keyboard warriors on BR get up to :oops:0 -
feltkuota wrote:Winners:
Trek and Oakley
Losers
The riders that were not on the juice. Fans of the sport believing they were watching x and it turned out to be y. The sponors that pulled their support due to the shitshow.
Trek, Absolutely! a huge winner here. It might be worth mentioning LeMond as a bit of a loser in this respect as his brand got frozen out didn't it?0 -
He hasn't. But it's hardly beyond the realms of possibility that he has doped now is it?[/quote]"tonye_n wrote:
I've never gotten myself involved either in the doping arguments, or even bothering to form a definite opinion on SKY PRO TEAM.Joelsim wrote:
But this statement is quite astonishing.... "Where has Voight tested positive?
So..... you're prepared to tarnish a very long standing pro's reputation simply because he was riding in that era?
Despite the fact that he has never tested positive or been mentioned in other such scandals (like operacion p and the likes).
Quite shameful what some of the keyboard warriors on BR get up to :oops:[/quote]
Not really, Joel shares the same view of every rider.0 -
The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.0
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I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?
There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...0 -
Pross wrote:The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.
Good shout that
RIP Panta.0 -
Paul 8v wrote:I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?
There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...
Yeh, the vast majority here enjoy the racing. Its what makes this forum different from a lot of the shoot other forums where some are doping obsessives...0 -
Paul 8v wrote:I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?
There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...
To be fair, if it stays on topic this one could be fairly interesting. It is strange to think that it has been commented that the biggest sporting fraud in history, despite having finally been caught, may not be considered a loser. That's the really worrying thing about doping. Getting caught should have such a negative impact that it acts as a deterrent but it looks like the more success you had due to doping then the less the impact when you finally get found out.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Paul 8v wrote:I'm getting a bit fed up of the constant doping talk on here, I know it's the off season but there is more to life. Can't we have a doping sub forum where all the people that like that sort of thing can argue for hours without it clogging up the feed?
There are a people on here who actually enjoy the racing. If it carries on like this we might as well call it the Pro-doping forum...
Yeh, the vast majority here enjoy the racing. Its what makes this forum different from a lot of the shoot other forums where some are doping obsessives...
If you could tell me about some racing to talk about Paul I'd be very grateful - That R'dam 6 was the last thing I watched...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
MartinGT wrote:Pross wrote:The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.
Good shout that
RIP Panta.
I really know this is childish and pointless but I'm going to throw the Voight cr*p right back atcha - So it's ok to accuse villify and denegrate a team with no evidence of doping at all, but your happy to laud and respect a confirmed, tested drug cheat?
To anyone else - this is the total hypocracy that winds us up...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:MartinGT wrote:Pross wrote:The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.
Good shout that
RIP Panta.
I really know this is childish and pointless but I'm going to throw the Voight cr*p right back atcha - So it's ok to accuse villify and denegrate a team with no evidence of doping at all, but your happy to laud and respect a confirmed, tested drug cheat?
To anyone else - this is the total hypocracy that winds us up...
Not really, it's human nature to like some people more than others (plus he doesn't seem to be lauding, just sympathy for a dead man).0 -
MartinGT wrote:Pross wrote:The ultimate loser has to be Pantani. Vilified for doing the same as everyone around him and ultimately taking his life whilst his peers went on to 'win' multiple GTs with the blessing of the sport's governing body. Plenty of others too such and Frank Vandenbroucke.
Good shout that
RIP Panta.
I suppose we could add Jose María Jiménez too, since their careers shared a similar path
and they were pals."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
ddraver wrote:
I really know this is childish and pointless but I'm going to throw the Voight cr*p right back atcha - So it's ok to accuse villify and denegrate a team with no evidence of doping at all, but your happy to laud and respect a confirmed, tested drug cheat?
To anyone else - this is the total hypocracy that winds us up...
Like Voigt, Pantani never failed a drugs test though. He was over the 50% limit once, but officially that was a health check.
There's no doubt he doped, but for most of his career there was no test for EPO.0
