Term Time Holidays WTF????

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Perhaps they ought to fine various businesses and travel firms for profiteering during school holidays.

Hello Frank, long time no speak.

If you had a bike for sale and you knew you could sell it for 500 quid, you would be a tad annoyed if I or anyone else told you that you must sell it for no more than 250.
Similarly if you had a room to rent out in a small hotel by the seaside, that you knew you could get 100 quid a night for, you wouldn't take to kindly to being told you could only charge 50 would you?
Yes there is a huge variance in pricing of holidays dependent on season. Would you suggest a harmonisation of pricing throughout the year? If so, would you fancy paying the same price for a holiday in dismal February as for one in sunnier August? Probably not. That is why hotels would be empty for most of the year and the business no longer viable.

Aye up fella.

The point I was making is IMHO fining businesses for jacking up the price at "peak times" is as ridiculous as fining parents for taking their child on holiday in term time. I'm sure some arrangement could be reached with the school and the pupil would just have to pull in the work they've missed out on.

I know we have a bit of a verbal sparring "Bally" but I'm not so thick as not to understand the rules of supply and demand and a tadge disappointed to think you had to explain them to me.

No offence intended.
I may think you many things, but thick isn't one of 'em.

florerider

Term time and holidays, difficult concept that.

Mikey23

We've got kids and face the same probs as everyone else. I am only attempting to give an opposite point of view in a thread that has been pretty negative towards schools and the teaching profession in general by people who do not appear to have the slightest idea what they are talking about. The system ain't perfect and once again it's you and I the proletariat who seem to get shafted. Please don't knock the ordinary people who work extraordinarily hard to give your kids the best possible education despite the crud that they have to put up with day by day

Her school didn't go on strike. All the school trips that mrs mikey organises are vetted thoroughly for their education content and curriculum relevance. This is done in her spare time and require a mountain of preparation and planning. Quite honestly I wonder sometimes why she bothers. She was up at 630 this morning, it's now 930pm and she is still working

lesfirth

Both my kids are now grown up. They went to uni to do proper subjects ( maths and civil engineering).They now have good jobs.
From before they went to school they were told that school and what you did there was very important. You had to try and do your best.
How could I then say its Ok for us all to go and sit on our backsides in the sun for two weeks when all the other kids were at school? Answer is I didn't.
I did work in my own company but holidays were booked on a first come first served basis,including me. I can see that some people have problems with leave times but as a principle I think that when school is open your kids should be there.
You don't get ripped off in school holidays, you pay the going rate, that's the way of the world. The scroats who have their kids off school for months are of no concern to me.

DeVlaeminck

10 years ago I would have defended the teaching profession, my mum was a teacher so I've seen there is a lot of work outside school time, but as a parent I've been disappointed by too many of my kids teachers. Maybe I expect too much but that is honestly how I feel and I'm surprised that things seem no better than when I was at school and we had some shockers. 1986 A level history, class of 15, 2 of us passed with a top grade of C (me) - this is the kind of shi te some schools are still dishing up - I just don't want it for my kids.

I don't mind teachers going on strike btw, bit of give and take on both sides would be fine by me.

Mikey23

Bad teachers tend to get weeded out these days. Most teachers are average, some are inspiring. The aspiration seems to be to get as many as possible through 5 passes at C... In my view pretty pathetic. My view of the secondary system is somewhat jaundiced. It did no favours to my 17 year old. Aspirations and expectations are limited. Having said that I have seen some amazing kids coming out of that college.

Missus is primary and spends her life making silk purses out of sows ears. Basically you can only work with the ability level of the cohort you have and hope to give them an appetite and enthusiasm for future learning. Quite frankly, many of the rising fives lack even the basic social skills and believe me, it doesn't help when the little darlings are taken off on a two week holiday. These kids deserve the best and that will only happen if home and school work together

rjsterry

Mikey23 wrote:

Bad teachers tend to get weeded out these days. Most teachers are average, some are inspiring. The aspiration seems to be to get as many as possible through 5 passes at C... In my view pretty pathetic. My view of the secondary system is somewhat jaundiced. It did no favours to my 17 year old. Aspirations and expectations are limited. Having said that I have seen some amazing kids coming out of that college.

Missus is primary and spends her life making silk purses out of sows ears. Basically you can only work with the ability level of the cohort you have and hope to give them an appetite and enthusiasm for future learning. Quite frankly, many of the rising fives lack even the basic social skills and believe me, it doesn't help when the little darlings are taken off on a two week holiday. These kids deserve the best and that will only happen if home and school work together

I've recently witnessed the local junior school being forced into Academy status, including a farcical consultation exercise with local parents, the results of which were then completely ignored. The overwhelming impression was one of a DfE seemingly wanting to micro manage everything, which must be pretty dispiriting for teachers.

mamba80

Mikey23 wrote:

Bad teachers tend to get weeded out these days. Most teachers are average, some are inspiring. The aspiration seems to be to get as many as possible through 5 passes at C... In my view pretty pathetic. My view of the secondary system is somewhat jaundiced. It did no favours to my 17 year old. Aspirations and expectations are limited. Having said that I have seen some amazing kids coming out of that college.

Missus is primary and spends her life making silk purses out of sows ears. Basically you can only work with the ability level of the cohort you have and hope to give them an appetite and enthusiasm for future learning. Quite frankly, many of the rising fives lack even the basic social skills and believe me, it doesn't help when the little darlings are taken off on a two week holiday. These kids deserve the best and that will only happen if home and school work together

My daughter goes to a local comp in cornwall, my brothers 2 to a top private school as boarders - what they get taught, by whom and how, there is little difference, the huge difference is the attitude of the parents and of the kids.
Maybe the biggest difference you could make to comp education, is to disband grammar schools, they rob the comp sector of some bright kids and the "get up an go" parents who would really make a big difference to the "capital" of the school, also, those grammar school teachers would go back into state education.

it all comes down to attitude and that kids realise they are going out into a jobs market that will be far far harder than anything most of us have experienced

Having said all that, our local comp is fantastic, the kids have amazing opportunities, with some very hard working teachers and v good leadership - school challenge week, involves trips to Europe, kayaking and camping all over the uk and a trip to Iceland, so taking her out for a family holiday is never necessary

rolf_f

mamba80 wrote:

Mikey23 wrote:

Bad teachers tend to get weeded out these days. Most teachers are average, some are inspiring. The aspiration seems to be to get as many as possible through 5 passes at C... In my view pretty pathetic. My view of the secondary system is somewhat jaundiced. It did no favours to my 17 year old. Aspirations and expectations are limited. Having said that I have seen some amazing kids coming out of that college.

Missus is primary and spends her life making silk purses out of sows ears. Basically you can only work with the ability level of the cohort you have and hope to give them an appetite and enthusiasm for future learning. Quite frankly, many of the rising fives lack even the basic social skills and believe me, it doesn't help when the little darlings are taken off on a two week holiday. These kids deserve the best and that will only happen if home and school work together

My daughter goes to a local comp in cornwall, my brothers 2 to a top private school as boarders - what they get taught, by whom and how, there is little difference, the huge difference is the attitude of the parents and of the kids.

I recall hearing about a study which basically said just this - that if the parents where supportive of their children and took time for them, and the child was reasonably intelligent, then it didn't make much difference where they went to school (ie expensive private schools were a waste of money).

Where it did make a difference was if your child was, errrrr, a bit thick! In that case, the private schools were far better. I can believe this having at one point worked with a very nice lad but a bit Tim nice but dim who came with good exam results and bags of confidence of a great career ahead of him which I can't see he would have gained from the local comp.

Mikey23

Indeed... I knew a group of young ladies who went through the 6 th form about ten years ago. All bright kids, all with supportive parents who worked closely with the school. One is PS to Boris, two are district nurses and one is a teacher. Parents, school and kids working together to achieve their dreams. Opportunities are there for those who choose to take them. Mrs Mikey's job is to get that love of learning started at a young age. It's all about attitude and value systems at the end of the day. NOT whether little has to be there every second so that they can cram more into them.

Sadly, very few parents seem to grasp this and this is why kids tend to fail or not get as far as they could. And guess what, it's the schools fault, or the governments or someone other than me. The arrogance, selfishness and hypocrisy spouted by some on this thread is pretty reflective of the rest of society

ballysmate

There have always been good and poor teachers, just like any walk of life.
When i was at the local Grammar School, many years ago, there were teachers that were truly inspirational, others less so.
There were teachers that ran the after school sports teams and gave up their Saturday mornings to take us to games. Others were out of the gates before the pupils.
The head of maths used to start the lesson, set work, then bugger off to the sports field with a 7 iron and a bag of balls.
More recently, when my kids were at school, I made sure I attended every parents evening, not that I learned much, but it ensured that my kids knew that I cared what they were doing and taking an interest. My kids got bored of me droning on, imploring the teachers to set more homework.
As regards my kids poor teachers, I was incredulous when my son's French teacher had to ask his name when I attended his parents evening. Rest assured that no translation was needed to convey my views on her.

Mikey23

I wish I had not passed my 11 plus and gone to the local grammar. Looking back, standards were a bit iffy, kids were easy to teach cos they wanted to be there and get on and there was a snob value

I wanted to be with my mates at the sec mode, would have probably done just as well academically but had a heck of a lot more self confidence.

I did take the trouble to get involved with sons secondary education recently completed and not to wait for problems and attempt to blame others when they happened. Which there have been a plenty. Was amazed what good people they are and how much they do for the kids. And I didn't take him out of school during term time either....

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

As regards my kids poor teachers, I was incredulous when my son's French teacher had to ask his name when I attended his parents evening. Rest assured that no translation was needed to convey my views on her.

Shouldn't have taken them out of school for all those holidays then

Seriously, Parents cant control every aspect of their children's behaviour (far from it) but they can try to impart some values and working hard at school should be one of them, if a cheaper holiday takes precedence then that undermines the value of school.

davelakers

How about;

It's ok to take my kids out of class because as a parent I know for a fact that at her age, and knowing her level of development, a week away from school aged six, when they are usually playing with toys or watching DVD's, is not going to harm her in any way whatsoever.
As a child my parents took us away during term time and I can guarantee that it has not affected me one little bit. In 2007 we took our 10 year old to New Zealand for our wedding and meeting family that she had never met before, developing a love of adventure and travel and a love of that country was far more beneficial for her personal development and has left her with amazing memories.
We did however not have a big family holiday in her years 10 & 11 because as responsible parents we recognised that this time studying for her GCSE's took priority. She got 9 GCSE's at A & B so we could not have done her much damage either!!

sloppyschleckonds

Its not all about academics, its about attitudes and behaviours. Respecting laws, rules and regulations. Having regard for the education system, the effort and time teachers put in.

Mikey23

Funnily enough that was what mrs mikey said... All they think our rising fives do is play around with toys and watch DVDs (sigh). Not being critical but couldn't wedding in New Zealand and meeting relatives have been an equally positive and enriching experience during holiday time?

Thanks SS. Pleased that some of you get the point...

DeVlaeminck

Mikey23 wrote:

Indeed... I knew a group of young ladies who went through the 6 th form about ten years ago. All bright kids, all with supportive parents who worked closely with the school. One is PS to Boris, two are district nurses and one is a teacher. Parents, school and kids working together to achieve their dreams. Opportunities are there for those who choose to take them. Mrs Mikey's job is to get that love of learning started at a young age. It's all about attitude and value systems at the end of the day. NOT whether little has to be there every second so that they can cram more into them.

Sadly, very few parents seem to grasp this and this is why kids tend to fail or not get as far as they could. And guess what, it's the schools fault, or the governments or someone other than me. The arrogance, selfishness and hypocrisy spouted by some on this thread is pretty reflective of the rest of society

Mikey it's hard to disagree with you because you play the "some on this thread" card, so we don't know exactly who you are referring to. For myself I can assure you that my kids are not allowed to forget the importance of education nor are they encouraged to think education is just about passing exams. That said I have been critical of the fact too many teachers are poor - because that is what I have found - too many is still a minority but it's not a tiny minority.

As far as value systems goes - I try and encourage mine to believe in personal responsibility - making choices and living by the consequences - not blind obedience to rules. I just can't see how a week off at certain points during their education is harmful and I wouldn't pretend to them otherwise. That said I have only once taken a holiday in term time and that was when they were all under 8 years old. I would have liked for us all to go to watch the Tour last year, who knows maybe it would inspire my youngest two in their cycling a bit, but no chance of that for another 5 years unless I want to pay a fine.

I don't know if you included me in your criticism but if you did you are well off target, if not apologies.

Mikey23

Apologies from me to... That statement was a little bit OTT. As soon as I'd pressed the button I thought ouch!

And I agree. My own personal experience is that primary teachers are brilliant, secondary teachers are more variable. It seems that when kids leave the primary environment and join the massive meat factory things can start to go wrong. If you are diligent and motivated with supportive parents you will probably be ok. If you are slightly less so or heaven forbid have the intelligence to query the point of it all then you can end up in doo doo

Taking kids out of school during term time is a tiny, tiny issue but perhaps is a symptom of a far mor serious disease that successive governments fail to address at the expense of the kids and the teachers who really have to work their butt off to make it work

pblakeney

I simply cannot believe that this thread has got to 6 pages!

To those wanting to take their children on holiday during term time - The system is set up so that the majority can work with it. There will always be a minority that any system inconveniences. It is not all about you.

davelakers

Mikey23 wrote:

Funnily enough that was what mrs mikey said... All they think our rising fives do is play around with toys and watch DVDs (sigh). Not being critical but couldn't wedding in New Zealand and meeting relatives have been an equally positive and enriching experience during holiday time?

Thanks SS. Pleased that some of you get the point...

Im sure it would be equally as enriching, but we did not plan the dates due to cost. Organising 20 odd people to get to the other side of the world during the southern hemisphere summer takes a bit of organising.

The point I am trying to make is, its our decision what we do with our children and to decide what is best for them.

Mikey23

And that is probably a good place to leave it!

verylonglegs

davelakers wrote:

The point I am trying to make is, its our decision what we do with our children and to decide what is best for them.

Ideally that would be the case but that's where a lot of this thread is missing the point of efforts to enforce attendance. The system has to deal with the kids who don't turn up for school because their parents just couldn't be arsed or give a fark, the rules are as they are because the local authority doesn't have the resources to check and so can't afford to assume that every child missing from a school day is on some life-enriching jolly to the other side of the world.

rolf_f

davelakers wrote:

The point I am trying to make is, its our decision what we do with our children and to decide what is best for them.

No, only up to a point. The law also makes decisions about what you do with your children and what is best for them.

Anyway, no matter how many people say that 'in my case, there really was no problem with my child missing some education, there were special circumstances blah blah' and no matter how justified they are in saying it, the problem is that this is pretty much what everyone says. It's always 'this is the only time we could go', 'we couldn't have afforded it at any other time', 'it was the only opportunity for our two year old to meet his 97 year old great Aunt in New Zealand' - either everyone who takes their children out of school for a holiday has an unarguable excuse or many of them are guilty of over-playing the justifications. And on that basis, how can a school make a decision about who has a good excuse and who doesn't?

markhewitt1978

Rolf F wrote:

And on that basis, how can a school make a decision about who has a good excuse and who doesn't?

That's easy, they don't. Everyone should get 1 weeks holidays in term time, no questions asked. All the arguments then immediately drop away, teachers can make plans knowing what's happening.

Mikey23

The effect of course will be that the responsible ones will be penalised and fined because they have left an easy paper trail

I suspect that most schools will continue to use a common sense approach and deal with each case on its merits, as they always have done

Mikey23

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/pup ... amendments

This is the statutory position currently

rolf_f

markhewitt1978 wrote:

All the arguments then immediately drop away, teachers can make plans knowing what's happening.

What - knowing that at any one point, on average nearly ten percent of your class is going to be absent?

markhewitt1978

Exactly. You know in advance so can make plans accordingly.

rolf_f

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Exactly. You know in advance so can make plans accordingly.

So what are those plans you make? OK, Johnny and Timmy are missing week 2 so their week 2 corresponds to everyone elses week 3. Sally is missing week 6 so her week six corresponds to everyone elses week 7 except Johnny and Timmy who are now on the same week as her. By the middle of the term, half the class are on week five and half week six. Perish the thought that any of them make it more complicated by only asking for half a week off.
Still, I'm sure the chaos is worth it for all those life experiences!

markhewitt1978

And yet they managed 'back in the day'.