Term Time Holidays WTF????

jordan_217

Rolf F wrote:

I can understand the frustration of parents but the arguments aren't helped by things like 'my child learns more on holiday than in the classroom' - maybe they do but if you didn't take your child out of class in term time, does that mean they wouldn't go on holiday? Do they learn more sat at home during the summer holiday period after they've come back from their term time holiday than they would have in the class? If they went on holiday outside term time would they just go on a cheaper holiday? (When I was little, our family holidays were all camping trips - sometimes in the UK and sometimes in Europe. You don't have to go far - the children won't mind where you go. Or is it more about where you want to go? In which case, should you have had children?). Or would the parents stump up the fine?

Or would they decide to take their disapproval of the fine system out on their children by depriving them of a holiday altogether? The only honest response to this issue is that the parents are taking their children out of class to save money. That's it - nothing else.

I don't know - I struggle to be sympathetic on this one. What happens if everyone decides to take their children out of class on the last week of term? The real cause of the problem here is not the schools and their fines but the holiday/travel companies for charging more in school holidays. But they are just behaving in accordance with perfectly normal laws of capitalism (something which a lot of folk on here are quite assertive in their defence of!).

If you can't afford to go on holiday because of a £360 fine, then you can't afford to go on holiday full stop.

And if the above all sounds mad to all you parents (and of course I don't have children myself!) then that's exactly how the parents arguments sound to me!

You want to buy a new bike. If you can get to the shop on a Thursday (the only day you work a long shift) then the bike is £1000. However, you can only get there on a Saturday - due to Saturday being the busiest day, the LBS sell the bike for £3000. Would you think that's fair? Perhaps if you can't afford £3k on a bike then you shouldn't be buying one at all?

If my Sons school were to fine me then I'd still take him and pay the fine as it would still be significantly cheaper than going on holiday during term time. Take Center Parcs as an example, non-term time - ~£400 for 4 nights, during term time - £1400+. Come on that's taking the pi55!

I understand and appreciate the counter 'argument' from people who don't have children but when you transfer the principle to a different subject, one which effects you then surely you can see that it's not a nice situation???

markhewitt1978

I don't buy the "don't have kids" argument either. As the holidays we are wanting to go on are for the kids, moreso than they are for the adults.

sloppyschleckonds

markhewitt1978 wrote:

As the holidays we are wanting to go on are for the kids, moreso than they are for the adults.

That makes no sense.

Mikey23

@rolf... Well argued. I'm a little to close to this one to take a detached view. For all the fine words, the majority the opinions expressed here seem to be primarily about the needs of the adult rather than the needs of the child. I'm not a teacher myself but I've been married to one for twenty years and I'm all too familiar with the frustrations and the damage done to the kids and to the structure and pace of their educational needs. Which I might add is not just a holding pen for your loved ones while you are at work. There is a plan and it's been proved to work.

And you would be surprised how many do take their kids out of school on the last week of term or they have a sicky pulled on their behalf so that they can have a slightly cheaper family holiday. The Philippinos and Eastern Europeans seem to have last week of term and the first week of the next term and go back to their homeland with all their friends and relatives. These are the ones that need all the help they can get and often have problems readjusting when they get back. In her primary, up to now, all requests have to be made in writing to the head and are subject to her approval. They are seldom granted. Now that discretion has gone and all unauthorised absences are passed to county. Unlikely that prosecutions will happen. Missus is not so outspoken on such issues but welcome these changes and so does her head

markhewitt1978

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

As the holidays we are wanting to go on are for the kids, moreso than they are for the adults.

That makes no sense.

What doesn't make sense? You think just because they are kids they don't benefit from holidays?

Mikey23

@mh1978... Yes, a weeks absence in a primary school does make a difference
Sorry to pick up on that remark but it does kind of highlight for me the disrespect for and misunderstanding of schools and the teaching profession and what they are trying to achieve which pervades many of the comments on this thread. It also sends a message to those kids for later in life that it's ok to break your responsibilities if it suits your purpose

Down from high horse now, sorry if I've offended anyone and off to work

DeVlaeminck

Mikey23 wrote:

@rolf... Well argued. I'm a little to close to this one to take a detached view. For all the fine words, the majority the opinions expressed here seem to be primarily about the needs of the adult rather than the needs of the child. I'm not a teacher myself but I've been married to one for twenty years and I'm all too familiar with the frustrations and the damage done to the kids and to the structure and pace of their educational needs. Which I might add is not just a holding pen for your loved ones while you are at work. There is a plan and it's been proved to work.

And you would be surprised how many do take their kids out of school on the last week of term or they have a sicky pulled on their behalf so that they can have a slightly cheaper family holiday. The Philippinos and Eastern Europeans seem to have last week of term and the first week of the next term and go back to their homeland with all their friends and relatives. These are the ones that need all the help they can get and often have problems readjusting when they get back. In her primary, up to now, all requests have to be made in writing to the head and are subject to her approval. They are seldom granted. Now that discretion has gone and all unauthorised absences are passed to county. Unlikely that prosecutions will happen. Missus is not so outspoken on such issues but welcome these changes and so does her head

The standard of teaching in many schools is poor. In the state system if you want your child to do well you need to do a substantial amount of filling in the gaps left by poor teaching.

Ultimately as parents that is your responsibility, to do the best for your kids. If you think the best is a week in Spain in term time because you can't afford to go otherwise you should be allowed to take them out. It makes me laugh when schools pretend they are experts at educating kids. Try holding a conversation in a foreign language with any year 9 - the only ones who will be able to speak it are those born abroad - if I had over 3 years of evening classes twice a week I'd expect to at least make myself understood. The only people that think teaching standards in this country are good are those without kids in school or those who can afford decent private education.

rolf_f

jordan_217 wrote:

You want to buy a new bike. If you can get to the shop on a Thursday (the only day you work a long shift) then the bike is £1000. However, you can only get there on a Saturday - due to Saturday being the busiest day, the LBS sell the bike for £3000. Would you think that's fair? Perhaps if you can't afford £3k on a bike then you shouldn't be buying one at all?

That's not a great analogy. The purchase time of the bike has nothing to do with the time element which is why your scenario doesn't happen in real life - the bike shop knows that pricing a bike more expensively on Saturday isn't going to result in increased revenue. The nearest you can get is seasonal - and bikes are cheaper at the end of the season than beforehand. Most people want a bike before the summer so that is the busiest time of year - there are probably no sales on so you are paying more at that time. Is that fair - probably. If you can't wait til the end of Summer or the new year sales, you pay more.

And never mind that families pay far less for their holidays than single people anyway. I can go on holiday in term time and pay less than it would cost during school holidays but my holiday is still more expensive than yours pro rata because single rooms (in this country at least) are more expensive than doubles.

And Centre Parcs - it's a family holiday place. I'd imagine 90% of people that go there are families (eg my sister and her family love Centre Parcs - the idea of it fills me with horror!). They are bound to struggle to fill the places out of holiday season no matter how cheap they are. Maybe instead of assuming that the prices are going up during the holidays you should be assuming that prices are going down outside the holidays.

Good example though - is four nights at Centre Parcs at £1400 the sort of scenario that people are talking about in terms of not going on holiday for? With the fine, outside holiday time the cost would be £400+£360 = £760. Still a lot less than £1400. If £760 is still too much, is it really impossible to have a four holiday for less than £760? Does four nights on a camp site in holiday time cost £760?

Incidentally, your point re the fines being less than the additional cost of the holiday is an interesting one. If the fine is less than the financial saving achieved by going on holiday early, then it isn't effective. The fine system is only fully effective if nobody actually pays the fine.

ballysmate

jordan_217 wrote:

You want to buy a new bike. If you can get to the shop on a Thursday (the only day you work a long shift) then the bike is £1000. However, you can only get there on a Saturday - due to Saturday being the busiest day, the LBS sell the bike for £3000. Would you think that's fair? Perhaps if you can't afford £3k on a bike then you shouldn't be buying one at all?

If my Sons school were to fine me then I'd still take him and pay the fine as it would still be significantly cheaper than going on holiday during term time. Take Center Parcs as an example, non-term time - ~£400 for 4 nights, during term time - £1400+. Come on that's taking the pi55!

I understand and appreciate the counter 'argument' from people who don't have children but when you transfer the principle to a different subject, one which effects you then surely you can see that it's not a nice situation???

I still think my analogy, posted earlier, was more fitting.

If you had a bike for sale and you knew you could sell it for 500 quid, you would be a tad annoyed if I or anyone else told you that you must sell it for no more than 250.
Similarly if you had a room to rent out in a small hotel by the seaside, that you knew you could get 100 quid a night for, you wouldn't take to kindly to being told you could only charge 50 would you?
Yes there is a huge variance in pricing of holidays dependent on season. Would you suggest a harmonisation of pricing throughout the year? If so, would you fancy paying the same price for a holiday in dismal February as for one in sunnier August? Probably not. That is why hotels would be empty for most of the year and the business no longer viable.

My kids have grown up, but I was faced with the same dilemma when they were young. Pay the going rate or adjust your holiday expectations. Simples.

veronese68

The problem I have with taking kids out of school during term time is, as Mikey said, it gives them the wrong message that it is ok to take time off when they want to for selfish reasons. So a few years down the road they don’t want to go to work one morning they just call up and pull a sicky. That is not something I am prepared to teach my children is acceptable. Before anybody asks, yes I do practice what I preach. My son is away on a scout camp this weekend. He could have taken the day off school and had a lift up in the minibus, but he knows school is his priority. I will now have to deal with the traffic this evening and drive him halfway round the M25, but I’m prepared to put up with a bit of inconvenience to do what is right. He also knew that unless his homework is up to date he wouldn’t be allowed to go.
Yes cheaper holidays would be nice, but we knew we would have to make sacrifices when we had kids. Yes, our lives our completely different to what they would be without the kids, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Prices are higher during the holiday because it’s a free market and they are the prices the market will stand.
Regarding teachers and working hours. There are good teachers and bad teachers. The good teachers work very hard and for little reward. It’s a truly vocational job for them and I have the utmost respect for that. The bad teachers, not so much. They do a job that I could not do, at least not well. I have no problem with the standard of teaching at the schools my kids attend. But we are lucky we live in an area with access to good schools, though not enough of them.
Right, where’s my ladder to get off this horse?

rjsterry

Spot on Mr V and Ballysmate. They're very hot on attendance at my littl'un's school, and why shouldn't they be. Holiday pricing is just a case of supply and demand. I was a bit disappointed that some members of staff seemed to be a bit more flexible on their own attendance.*

*edited for clarity.

Paulie W

I'm still laughing at those who say taking a child out of primary school for a week or two is going to hinder their educational development!! You do realise that most 4-7 year olds miss weeks of school anyway with chickenpox, norovirus and every bloody other illness going?!

We are planning a 4 week trip to Aus which realistcally will involve taking the kids out of school for 2 weeks. That is partly about cost but also about getting agreement for leave from our own jobs and a range of other perfectly reasonable factors. We will seek permission from the school and I think can make a strong case but if we were to be refused permission I think we will go anyway and accept a fine because the trip will be a fantastic life experience for them. If you think the holiday is more about us than them frankly you have no understanding of being a parent.

rolf_f

Paulie W wrote:

If you think the holiday is more about us than them frankly you have no understanding of being a parent.

I'm sure I don't. I would tend to think that a 4 or 7 year old would be just as happy going to Tenby as Australia and that they'd be just as happy going for two weeks as four. So yes, I think that you going to Australia for four weeks, two from term time, is pretty much entirely more about you than them and that deep down you know this is true. My only basis for this is my personal experience of being a child which I was once.......

Incidentally, is the argument that children miss lots of school anyway to illness really a good argument to make them miss more?

markhewitt1978

Because 1 or 2 weeks at primary school is completely irrelevant compared to a holiday such as going to Australia.

Paulie W

Rolf F wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

If you think the holiday is more about us than them frankly you have no understanding of being a parent.

I'm sure I don't. I would tend to think that a 4 or 7 year old would be just as happy going to Tenby as Australia and that they'd be just as happy going for two weeks as four. So yes, I think that you going to Australia for four weeks, two from term time, is pretty much entirely more about you than them and that deep down you know this is true. My only basis for this is my personal experience of being a child which I was once.......

Incidentally, is the argument that children miss lots of school anyway to illness really a good argument to make them miss more?

You couldnt be more wrong. I personally hate flying and have little desire to make the trip but this is an opportunity for the kids to meet family some of whom wont be around much longer and experience a completely different continent. The 7 year old is so excited about the prospect that, even though it isn't set yet, she talks about nothing else - so I'm sure Tenby would be great fun for her but surprisingly she actually has an opinion and a view on this which is 'Australllllllia'.

My point about sickness absence is that a child's education in their earlier years is holistic. In some countries they dont go to school until they're 7. Missing a few weeks here and there for whatever reason does not necessarily have a detrimental effect on their education and to use that as an argument against taking 1-2 weeks of school time as holiday holds no weight, particularly if the holiday itself can be seen as part of a broader education.

rolf_f

Paulie W wrote:

The 7 year old is so excited about the prospect that, even though it isn't set yet, she talks about nothing else - so I'm sure Tenby would be great fun for her but surprisingly she actually has an opinion and a view on this which is 'Australllllllia'.

And I'm sure I'd have said just the same when I was seven. And I'm equally sure that when I actually came to having the holiday, I'd have enjoyed Australia just as much as I'd have enjoyed Tenby. Children are very good at enjoying any new experiences whether they are Australia or Wales. That's one of the great things about being a child.

Paulie W

Rolf F wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

The 7 year old is so excited about the prospect that, even though it isn't set yet, she talks about nothing else - so I'm sure Tenby would be great fun for her but surprisingly she actually has an opinion and a view on this which is 'Australllllllia'.

And I'm sure I'd have said just the same when I was seven. And I'm equally sure that when I actually came to having the holiday, I'd have enjoyed Australia just as much as I'd have enjoyed Tenby. Children are very good at enjoying any new experiences whether they are Australia or Wales. That's one of the great things about being a child.

That may or may not be true - personally I think children are a little more sophisticated and discerning than that - but I think that in this instance Austalia offers a much richer life experience than that of Tenby which is why we will be going. I suspect the school will be in agreement because its run by intelligent reasonable people who will recognise that this is if not quite a once-in-a-lifetime trip then a fantastic experience for the kids.

markhewitt1978

As I said upthread my parents took me out of school when I was 7 to go to France for two weeks. I remember so much of it; driving all the way to Weymouth, stopping in Wales, going across the Severn Bridge, getting on the big ferry, the strange push button toilet in Cherbourg, staying in the walled city in Saint Malo, eating pancakes for breakfast, being overjoyed finding a 10F coin, seeing the hydrofoil ferry coming in to dock, burning my finger on a freezer!, seeing the road lift up to let a ship go through, visiting Paris, seeing the Eiffel tower, going on the Paris Metro, toll roads, sitting on a beach and being attacked by insects. I could go on all day.

How much do I remember otherwise about being 7? Virtually nothing.

DeVlaeminck

Rolf F wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

The 7 year old is so excited about the prospect that, even though it isn't set yet, she talks about nothing else - so I'm sure Tenby would be great fun for her but surprisingly she actually has an opinion and a view on this which is 'Australllllllia'.

And I'm sure I'd have said just the same when I was seven. And I'm equally sure that when I actually came to having the holiday, I'd have enjoyed Australia just as much as I'd have enjoyed Tenby. Children are very good at enjoying any new experiences whether they are Australia or Wales. That's one of the great things about being a child.

Would you have enjoyed a week camping in the pi s s ing rain in Northumberland when we had to go to the local shops in Berwick to buy them all a Winter coat because we'd been silly enough to think a jacket would be enough in August?

Buckie2k5

markhewitt1978 wrote:

As I said upthread my parents took me out of school when I was 7 to go to France for two weeks. I remember so much of it; driving all the way to Weymouth, stopping in Wales, going across the Severn Bridge, getting on the big ferry, the strange push button toilet in Cherbourg, staying in the walled city in Saint Malo, eating pancakes for breakfast, being overjoyed finding a 10F coin, seeing the hydrofoil ferry coming in to dock, burning my finger on a freezer!, seeing the road lift up to let a ship go through, visiting Paris, seeing the Eiffel tower, going on the Paris Metro, toll roads, sitting on a beach and being attacked by insects. I could go on all day.

How much do I remember otherwise about being 7? Virtually nothing.

touche!

The government dont want you having cheap holidays just as much as they dont want you to have cheap fuel and so on. If you try and break the system they fine you and get there money anyway. Do they care about childs education when the school gets closed on voting day? Do they hell..

rolf_f

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

The 7 year old is so excited about the prospect that, even though it isn't set yet, she talks about nothing else - so I'm sure Tenby would be great fun for her but surprisingly she actually has an opinion and a view on this which is 'Australllllllia'.

And I'm sure I'd have said just the same when I was seven. And I'm equally sure that when I actually came to having the holiday, I'd have enjoyed Australia just as much as I'd have enjoyed Tenby. Children are very good at enjoying any new experiences whether they are Australia or Wales. That's one of the great things about being a child.

Would you have enjoyed a week camping in the pi s s ing rain in Northumberland when we had to go to the local shops in Berwick to buy them all a Winter coat because we'd been silly enough to think a jacket would be enough in August?

I have a vague recollection of one trip finishing early due to relentless bad weather! But then you don't get killed by tsunamis in Northumberland; there's always a chance the weather will happen wherever you are.

markhewitt1978 wrote:

As I said upthread my parents took me out of school when I was 7 to go to France for two weeks. I remember so much of it; driving all the way to Weymouth, stopping in Wales, going across the Severn Bridge, getting on the big ferry, the strange push button toilet in Cherbourg, staying in the walled city in Saint Malo, eating pancakes for breakfast, being overjoyed finding a 10F coin, seeing the hydrofoil ferry coming in to dock, burning my finger on a freezer!, seeing the road lift up to let a ship go through, visiting Paris, seeing the Eiffel tower, going on the Paris Metro, toll roads, sitting on a beach and being attacked by insects. I could go on all day.

How much do I remember otherwise about being 7? Virtually nothing.

And you only remember all of this because you were taken out of school for it? I have lots of memories of holidays in the 70s - and I remember the ones in England as much as the foreign ones. They were all great. I could go on as long as you and we'd have a good chat because it sounds like you had much the same sort of experiences that I did. But talk about having to go to Australia, having to go for four weeks, the justification of visiting elderly relatives that the child has probably never met and won't be bothered about meeting as being all for the child is a bit disingenuous.

Your child won't turn into a better human being because they go to Australia rather than Tenby - they'll turn into a better child because you go on holiday with them, pay them lots of attention and find things for them to do that make them happy and interested in their surroundings.

Yes, obviously Tenby is never going to be the number one destination but then Australia is hardly a match for Europe. Marks trip to Northern France is a great example - far cheaper and doesn't need four weeks away and will be at least as good a life experience as Australia (IMO about 1000 times better!).

markhewitt1978

Rolf F wrote:

And you only remember all of this because you were taken out of school for it? .

If I hadn't been taken out of school for it, it wouldn't have happened.

sloppyschleckonds

All very very tenuous reasons for taking more than the allocated 13 weeks holiday for schoolchildren.

Could do better. 2.5/10 or D-

Frank the tank

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Perhaps they ought to fine various businesses and travel firms for profiteering during school holidays.

Hello Frank, long time no speak.

If you had a bike for sale and you knew you could sell it for 500 quid, you would be a tad annoyed if I or anyone else told you that you must sell it for no more than 250.
Similarly if you had a room to rent out in a small hotel by the seaside, that you knew you could get 100 quid a night for, you wouldn't take to kindly to being told you could only charge 50 would you?
Yes there is a huge variance in pricing of holidays dependent on season. Would you suggest a harmonisation of pricing throughout the year? If so, would you fancy paying the same price for a holiday in dismal February as for one in sunnier August? Probably not. That is why hotels would be empty for most of the year and the business no longer viable.

Aye up fella.

The point I was making is IMHO fining businesses for jacking up the price at "peak times" is as ridiculous as fining parents for taking their child on holiday in term time. I'm sure some arrangement could be reached with the school and the pupil would just have to pull in the work they've missed out on.

I know we have a bit of a verbal sparring "Bally" but I'm not so thick as not to understand the rules of supply and demand and a tadge disappointed to think you had to explain them to me.

florerider

Doing it in economy class? With small kids? And you think that is a holiday? No, that will be a life changing experience.

Mikey23

Ok back to speed on this. If I might paraphrase some of the arguments then

It's ok to take kids out of class because it's only primary and it doesn't matter
It's ok to take kids out of class because they get sick anyway so they might as well have some more
It's ok to take kids out of class because some teachers are rubbish
It's ok to take kids out of class because schools are sometimes closed and teachers go on strike
It's ok to take kids out of class because otherwise we couldn't afford a holiday
It's ok to take kids of of class because their holiday will be an enriching experience and much more interesting and valuable than school
It's ok to take my kids out of class because their holiday will only be an enriching experience if it's out of holiday
It's ok to take my kids out of class if I've asked permission first. If I get it fine but if I don't I will do it anyway
It's ok to take my kids out of class because if I get fined, I will still save money overall

I think that's sorted then....

Frank the tank

Use contraception and go on holiday when you like.

veronese68

Mikey you forgot the most basic one:
It's ok to take my kids out of class because it suits me.

Mikey23

Yes, I forgot that one ;-)

Missus has another one:

It's ok to take my kids out of class because if you don't let me I'll publically berate you on Facebook ...

DeVlaeminck

Maybe for some people it's the difference between having a holiday at all or not. Maybe they can afford that week in Tenby in term time but not summer holidays. But of course teachers are so great that primary school kids can't miss a minute and if it means no holiday that year or a week freezing your balls off in a tent in Yorkshire that's fine - said nobody ever that had kids. But if the school wants to take the on a trip to Alton Towers that's fine and educational and if the teachers go on strike that's fine too.

2 weeks max primary, 1 week secondary, exceptional circumstances GCSE the end.