New Power meters for team Sky

spanielsson

ddraver wrote:

Real Reason guess...?

SRM are the daddies and can pretty much name their price from any team that did nt already have a PM sponsor. Stages offered them to Sky for free...

I'm not sure why you think rick hasnt the foggiest though...

That's what I've heard as the unofficial reason via someone that works for the team. Cost.

amaferanga

nic_77 wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Whatever Sky are up to, don't take that to mean Stages works. If you're lucky you'll get ok data some of the time, but you'll never know when your L/R pedalling symmetry changes and introduces an additional error of several percent.

Would you be willing to estimate said percentage over say an hour TT effort? And how this would compare to the +/-error advertised for all PMs.

P.S. I'm definitely not defending my buying decision, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts (despite your condescending tone). I am more than willing to accept the compromise as the ease at which I can swap bikes far outweighs the absolute accuracy of the device.

Well I can only speak for myself, but when doing threshold intervals on the turbo and on the road I see 50/50 L/R balance, 49/51, 48/52. That's actually not too extreme - many people are much more asymmetric (and things are more variable for me for more variable efforts). Even this asymmetry introduces an additional 4% variability on top of other uncertainties. So at a modest 300W, that means a real 300W could reported as only 288W by Stages (+/- any other errors so maybe even as low as 282W). Anyone taking training with power remotely seriously should agree that that's just unacceptable - you could probably do just as well with RPE.

For the pro peleton things are obviously worse - that 4% error from a slight pedalling asymmetry at the typical FTP of a pro is getting on for 20W. I don't for a second believe that a team with the scientific approach of Sky would accept that for training.

okgo

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Lol rick you've got no idea. Mod you may be but you haven't the foggiest.

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OK.

Tell me how power metres affect racing then.

Or radios don't.

Or both.

You said they were a red herring?

Do you think the lines of wiggins would be able to execute perfect time trials without one? In fact many of the best testers are riding to a number as they've all mentioned in books and interviews.

In training these guys will know what they can do for a period of time using w/kg (and vam too but that's still condition dependant) - it's well reputed that to win the tour you need to be at a certain w/kg so training and racing is pretty dependant on these numbers. Even Cav talks about power in his book and he gets carried along all day

rick_chasey

okgo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Lol rick you've got no idea. Mod you may be but you haven't the foggiest.

.

OK.

Tell me how power metres affect racing then.

Or radios don't.

Or both.

You said they were a red herring?

Do you think the lines of wiggins would be able to execute perfect time trials without one? In fact many of the best testers are riding to a number as they've all mentioned in books and interviews.

In training these guys will know what they can do for a period of time using w/kg (and vam too but that's still condition dependant) - it's well reputed that to win the tour you need to be at a certain w/kg so training and racing is pretty dependant on these numbers. Even Cav talks about power in his book and he gets carried along all day

I do think Wiggins etc would be able to ride good TTs without one. He did it on the track for starters, and I doubt Indurain, Boardman, Merckx etc rode any differently to Wiggins. That's just how you race TTs.

You've told me how it affects training, but not how it affects racing?

Using power metres to bash a racing style is a red herring.

Mccaria

On the racing, didn't Sky use their power outputs on climbs to judge the ability of breakaways to sustain an attack ? Based on their own output they would set a tempo that would ultimately catch the rider up the road. Now I would imagine they could also do this on heart rate or feel, but certainly they used the data available to both assess the ability of a rider to sustain an attack and set the tempo that would reel back the attack.

As a user of both the Stages and the SRM, I would have to say that the difference for me is very little (I have reasonable L/R balance) and the convenience of the Stages is very useful where I have several bikes with the same chainset configuration.

Lanterne_Rogue

So to summarise, Sky's entire approach is to ride to a very accurate number and absolutely nothing else, and the power meters they're currently riding around on are entirely incapable of providing an accurate number. That suggests to me that one of the two statements must be false. Vested interests, or vested prejudices?

Richmond Racer

All this from 1 pic tweeted yday by a guest visiting the team camp for the day

Anything and everything related to Sky sure does get the internetz energised, doesn't it...

mike6

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

okgo wrote:

Lol rick you've got no idea. Mod you may be but you haven't the foggiest.

.

OK.

Tell me how power metres affect racing then.

Or radios don't.

Or both.

You said they were a red herring?

Do you think the lines of wiggins would be able to execute perfect time trials without one? In fact many of the best testers are riding to a number as they've all mentioned in books and interviews.

In training these guys will know what they can do for a period of time using w/kg (and vam too but that's still condition dependant) - it's well reputed that to win the tour you need to be at a certain w/kg so training and racing is pretty dependant on these numbers. Even Cav talks about power in his book and he gets carried along all day

I do think Wiggins etc would be able to ride good TTs without one. He did it on the track for starters, and I doubt Indurain, Boardman, Merckx etc rode any differently to Wiggins. That's just how you race TTs.

You've told me how it affects training, but not how it affects racing?

Using power metres to bash a racing style is a red herring.

i think Rick is right, power meters are a red herring. They are a great training aid but pretty much meaningless in racing apart from supplying the coaches with data when the race is over. The fittest wins, not the guy with the best power meter.

As for the Pantani analogy, that is pure fiction. Pantani was the ultimate "feel" rider. And there is no instrument to measure grit, determination or pure pig headed ability to ignore pain. :roll:

DeVlaeminck

Riders do at times ride to numbers, it's documented, whether that is a real advantage is harder to answer. Certainly in a TT you'd think it helps if only as a motivating target. Even on a road stage i think it probably helps somewhat some of the time - though radios are potentially a bigger influence.

frenchfighter

Sky win stage races because they are able to get some of the strongest domestiques and pay them enough that they have no desire to shine in order to obtain a more attractive contract. So these top doms are happy to robotically ride to plan. This plan is one of riding at a very high but sustainable level which will prevent anyone escaping. Then Froome unleashes his relentless 250rpm attacks and wins. Then in the TTs Froome giving the panzerwagen a close call. They do this remarkably well and are very disciplined.

When the plan breaks down due to rain or due to other racers pilling the pressure on all early and en masse or when there is a sole rider on splendid form who takes a risk; then they fail.

When that happens then we have a race on. Then we can be entertained and motivated. It doesn't happen that often but like all the best things when you have to wait longer to achieve them they are exponentially better.

Macaloon

frenchfighter wrote:

Sky win stage races because they are able to get some of the strongest domestiques and pay them enough that they have no desire to shine in order to obtain a more attractive contract. So these top doms are happy to robotically ride to plan. This plan is one of riding at a very high but sustainable level which will prevent anyone escaping. Then Froome unleashes his relentless 250rpm attacks and wins. Then in the TTs Froome giving the panzerwagen a close call. They do this remarkably well and are very disciplined.

When the plan breaks down due to rain or due to other racers pilling the pressure on all early and en masse or when there is a sole rider on splendid form who takes a risk then they fail.

When that happens then we have a race on. Then we can be entertained and motivated. It doesn't happen that often but like all the best things when you have to wait longer to achieve them they are exponentially better.

That's spot on for the 2012 squad. But it ignores the train derailments of the 2013 tour, and denies the smarts and cojones of Froome to dominate without a train, from distance.

frenchfighter

Yes agreed...Froome was ridiculously strong so capable of holding his own solo on that stage as well as the teams failing to capitalise properly.

Ps. If you didnt watch TA last year its worth finding the coverage.

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

Macaloon

frenchfighter wrote:

Ps. If you didnt watch TA last year its worth finding the coverage.

Reassuringly human failure to dress and equip the bikes appropriately. With luck Nibali can show his legs of fire on the biggest stage this year.

frenchfighter

No point blaming it on clothing. The racers came out to play in the bad weather and his team got smashed and he got disorientated.

Anonymous

It could be a combination of things, the weather being a key one, look how bad sky did in the classics after all their warm weather training.

I'd say if the "racers" can only come out and beat Froome on wet days then they aren't very good.

ddraver

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

There's quite a lot of if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle about that post FF....

whiteboytrash

My view is Kerrison wants the follow data;

Stages also now gives you torque efficiency and pedal smoothness, two metrics that have been introduced with the Garmin Edge 510 and 810 computers.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/c ... 900-47924/

My suspicion is they are using Bluetooth rather than ANT+.

We'll find out soon enough. Garmin will release 520 with LE by March-June.

markwb79

whiteboytrash wrote:

My view is Kerrison wants the follow data;

Stages also now gives you torque efficiency and pedal smoothness, two metrics that have been introduced with the Garmin Edge 510 and 810 computers.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/c ... 900-47924/

My suspicion is they are using Bluetooth rather than ANT+.

We'll find out soon enough. Garmin will release 520 with LE by March-June.

Easy way to get more power then if you look at the tables at the bottom of the link.

Is there a weight difference between a carbon crank arm and the one they are using? All the ever mention is the 20g for the Stages, but never mention that they dont use carbon crank arms?

whiteboytrash

Markwb79 wrote:

whiteboytrash wrote:

My view is Kerrison wants the follow data;

Stages also now gives you torque efficiency and pedal smoothness, two metrics that have been introduced with the Garmin Edge 510 and 810 computers.

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/c ... 900-47924/

My suspicion is they are using Bluetooth rather than ANT+.

We'll find out soon enough. Garmin will release 520 with LE by March-June.

Easy way to get more power then if you look at the tables at the bottom of the link.

Is there a weight difference between a carbon crank arm and the one they are using? All the ever mention is the 20g for the Stages, but never mention that they dont use carbon crank arms?

To be honest Stages sounds a consumer based product. Not Pro level.

Vector is where it's at. That system has grounds for mass improvement and datapoints coming out of its ears.

mike6

ddraver wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

There's quite a lot of if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle about that post FF....

A proper style of riding?? I don't even know what that means. He won the Tour and was ranked second in the riders list at end of season. Its just as well he cant ride "Properly" then. :roll:

RichN95.

mike6 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

There's quite a lot of if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle about that post FF....

A proper style of riding?? I don't even know what that means. He won the Tour and was ranked second in the riders list at end of season. Its just as well he cant ride "Properly" then. :roll:

Frenchie is very much into the aesthetics of cycling. And I don't think even Michelle Cound would try and claim that Froome looks elegant pedalling a bike.

Richmond Racer

RichN95 wrote:

mike6 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

There's quite a lot of if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle about that post FF....

A proper style of riding?? I don't even know what that means. He won the Tour and was ranked second in the riders list at end of season. Its just as well he cant ride "Properly" then. :roll:

Frenchie is very much into the aesthetics of cycling. And I don't think even Michelle Cound would try and claim that Froome looks elegant pedalling a bike.

Great athlete, and an attacking rider - but he does look shocking on a bike. And then we have (as ThomThom would say) UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN

Though for all of that he shifts that bike

mike6

Richmond Racer wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

mike6 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

As Ive said before if Froome was in a different team and had a different past as well as a proper style of riding then I would be 100% rooting for him.

There's quite a lot of if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle about that post FF....

A proper style of riding?? I don't even know what that means. He won the Tour and was ranked second in the riders list at end of season. Its just as well he cant ride "Properly" then. :roll:

Frenchie is very much into the aesthetics of cycling. And I don't think even Michelle Cound would try and claim that Froome looks elegant pedalling a bike.

Great athlete, and an attacking rider - but he does look shocking on a bike. And then we have (as ThomThom would say) UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN UP DOWN

Though for all of that he shifts that bike

I have been told on a number of occasions that I have a lovely smooth riding style. Makes no difference, I am still cr*p.

Merckx was a brute on the bike, didnt stop him winning everything there was to win, did it?

Anyway, who made Mr French the arbiter of style and taste????

No_Ta_Doctor

mike6 wrote:

Anyway, who made Mr French the arbiter of style and taste????

FF's credentials in that arena are impeccable. I have few arguments with any of his posts regarding the aesthetics of cycling.

I just disagree with around 90% of everything else he writes :-)

Besides which, only a mother could love Froome's riding style. And even then she'd have to be half blind and blind drunk.

mroli

+1, Frenchie doesn't half talk a load of old cobblers at some time, but his eye for a good looking bike, decent kit, a great photo and a smooth cycling style is very sound.

Of course, that doesn't make you a great cyclist in itself - but as Rapha can tell you, the "look" is very important!

Macaloon

mroli wrote:

+1, Frenchie doesn't half talk a load of old cobblers at some time, but his eye for a good looking bike, decent kit, a great photo and a smooth cycling style is very sound.

Having had the pleasure, in the flesh so to speak, I can confirm that our pugilistic Brother most definitely walks the walk.

No_Ta_Doctor

Macaloon wrote:

mroli wrote:

+1, Frenchie doesn't half talk a load of old cobblers at some time, but his eye for a good looking bike, decent kit, a great photo and a smooth cycling style is very sound.

Having had the pleasure, in the flesh so to speak, I can confirm that our pugilistic Brother most definitely walks the walk.

Yes, but does he err.....pedal the err.... pedal?

Clothes may maketh the man, but gliding effortlessly over the cobbles while oozing souplesse maketh the cyclist.

rick_chasey

No tA Doctor wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

mroli wrote:

+1, Frenchie doesn't half talk a load of old cobblers at some time, but his eye for a good looking bike, decent kit, a great photo and a smooth cycling style is very sound.

Having had the pleasure, in the flesh so to speak, I can confirm that our pugilistic Brother most definitely walks the walk.

Yes, but does he err.....pedal the err.... pedal?

Clothes may maketh the man, but gliding effortlessly over the cobbles while oozing souplesse maketh the cyclist.

Have you not seen the picture of Frenchie's thighs, opqs shorts and white shoes??

No_Ta_Doctor

Rick Chasey wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

mroli wrote:

+1, Frenchie doesn't half talk a load of old cobblers at some time, but his eye for a good looking bike, decent kit, a great photo and a smooth cycling style is very sound.

Having had the pleasure, in the flesh so to speak, I can confirm that our pugilistic Brother most definitely walks the walk.

Yes, but does he err.....pedal the err.... pedal?

Clothes may maketh the man, but gliding effortlessly over the cobbles while oozing souplesse maketh the cyclist.

Have you not seen the picture of Frenchie's thighs, opqs shorts and white shoes??

Yes. I'm working on the assumption that all his other kit was in the wash and he was about to have a private session on the rollers.

ddraver

Come sit on grandpah's knee little Jimmy and I ll tell you a story.

I remember I was on the first club ride of the year. Leiden to the Hoek van Holland, back up through the dunes on the coast to Katwijk and back to Leiden. I'd actually been a good boy over the winter and got stuck into the Turbo with the Sufferfest vids. Still being a fat tub of lard I got dropped by 100-200m or so through the dune section. A few of us were trying to chase back on and the guy on the front wasnt doing a good enough job for me so using my reasonable power I surged past him leaving him standing still.

Full power into the Dutch headwind now I have my arms on the tops of the bars, head down and the pedals whirring. As I make the gap to the group ahead the only thing going through my head is
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Frenchie would be SO proud of me!