New Power meters for team Sky

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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,537
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:

    Oh that's priceless. I was out in Italy for the Giro and didnt look at the forum much during the race, so missed all that.

    Oh 'trash, 'trash....what are we going to do with you....

    Give him a hug?


    You think the root of his problem is low self-esteem?

    Yes maybe. Mine too, give me a hug as well please.


    HUG













    Now STFU.



    :wink:
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  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:

    Oh that's priceless. I was out in Italy for the Giro and didnt look at the forum much during the race, so missed all that.

    Oh 'trash, 'trash....what are we going to do with you....

    Give him a hug?


    You think the root of his problem is low self-esteem?

    Yes maybe. Mine too, give me a hug as well please.


    HUG

    Thanks mate. 8:30 at the Dod & Duck ok?















    Now STFU.



    :wink:
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?
    The thing is the SRM signal is pretty weak and only designed to be transmitted a few meters so to hack into the system surely you have to be close enough to pick up the signal - basically right next to the rider. And if you're that close their data is going to be much the same as yours.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,537
    Joelsim wrote:

    Thanks mate. 8:30 at the Dod & Duck ok?

    I'll be in the gents, 1st urinal on the left, red carnation.
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  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:

    Oh that's priceless. I was out in Italy for the Giro and didnt look at the forum much during the race, so missed all that.

    Oh 'trash, 'trash....what are we going to do with you....

    Give him a hug?


    You think the root of his problem is low self-esteem?

    Low self-esteem?

    Possibly. But considering in the face of abuse, bullying and hate I'm still able to present well considered arguments with links and evidence I think not.

    Might want to check those whom in the last month or so have called me a "pr1ck, tosser, loser' amongst other abuse.

    Maybe they might have self esteem issues? However I wouldn't want to slander people unfairly.

    Thoughts?

    I know I don't resort to name calling and abuse of other forum posters. And I have a sense of humor to know when to use satire to get a point across.

    I'd say I'm very well rounded but we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

    Feel free to continue the bullying if you wish but I will just report your posts under the forum guidelines.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:

    Thanks mate. 8:30 at the Dod & Duck ok?

    I'll be in the gents, 1st urinal on the left, red carnation.

    I hope you have trousers below the knee and your midriff showing so that I know you are genuine.

    On second thoughts I'd much prefer RR, sorry.
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?

    Sure. If you knew that Froomes's FTP on a given climb is x for y duration then you'd have the keys mathematically speaking to know how to beat him. Doesn't mean you can physiologically. But you could train yourself to expose a potential weakness.

    That's why Froome looks at his stem all the time. He is watching his watts. As he and Kerrison know exactly where his thresholds during a stage and climb. Not going over these thresholds during the stage means he can stay within physical capabilities and use all of his power on the climb - i.e. Ventoux.

    Another example is Pantani. When he attacked on Hautacam in 2000 (i think about 9km out) Bruyneel called Ferrari. Ferrari had all of Pantani power files and knew how long he'd last at the speed he was going. Knowing his weight helped also. Bruyneel radio'ed Armstrong and they knew that Pantani would die.

    And he did.

    There is much more to it than this but this is just a basic example.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:

    Oh that's priceless. I was out in Italy for the Giro and didnt look at the forum much during the race, so missed all that.

    Oh 'trash, 'trash....what are we going to do with you....

    Give him a hug?


    You think the root of his problem is low self-esteem?

    Low self-esteem?

    Possibly. But considering in the face of abuse, bullying and hate I'm still able to present well considered arguments with links and evidence I think not.

    Might want to check those whom in the last month or so have called me a "pr1ck, tosser, loser' amongst other abuse.

    Maybe they might have self esteem issues? However I wouldn't want to slander people unfairly.

    Thoughts?

    I know I don't resort to name calling and abuse of other forum posters. And I have a sense of humor to know when to use satire to get a point across.

    I'd say I'm very well rounded but we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

    Feel free to continue the bullying if you wish but I will just report your posts under the forum guidelines.

    +1. I like you mate anyway, you don't get involved in the face of much taunting which is admirable.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,537
    Joelsim wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:

    Thanks mate. 8:30 at the Dod & Duck ok?

    I'll be in the gents, 1st urinal on the left, red carnation.

    I hope you have trousers below the knee and your midriff showing so that I know you are genuine.

    On second thoughts I'd much prefer RR, sorry.

    No problem. It was just as a favour for you anyway to help you with the esteem stuff.
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  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,537
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?

    Sure. If you knew that Froomes's FTP on a given climb is x for y duration then you'd have the keys mathematically speaking to know how to beat him. Doesn't mean you can physiologically. But you could train yourself to expose a potential weakness.

    That's why Froome looks at his stem all the time. He is watching his watts. As he and Kerrison know exactly where his thresholds during a stage and climb. Not going over these thresholds during the stage means he can stay within physical capabilities and use all of his power on the climb - i.e. Ventoux.

    Another example is Pantani. When he attacked on Hautacam in 2000 (i think about 9km out) Bruyneel called Ferrari. Ferrari had all of Pantani power files and knew how long he'd last at the speed he was going. Knowing his weight helped also. Bruyneel radio'ed Armstrong and they knew that Pantani would die.

    And he did.

    There is much more to it than this but this is just a basic example.

    Actually, that's just how he rides. Exactly the same when he doesn't have a power meter on.
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  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Nevertheless if it's a Garmin head unit it doesn't support LE only BT 2.0.
    Still much better encryption than Ant+.
    Sorry, as far as I am aware the Stage can only broadcast via Bluetooth to it's own iOS app at the moment.
    Difficult to say from the pictures, but I'd say they are Garmin 510 headunits... and will therefore be using ANT+. The bluetooth capability of the 510 is for data upload via iOS / Android.
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  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    nic_77 wrote:
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Nevertheless if it's a Garmin head unit it doesn't support LE only BT 2.0.
    Still much better encryption than Ant+.
    Sorry, as far as I am aware the Stage can only broadcast via Bluetooth to it's own iOS app at the moment.
    Difficult to say from the pictures, but I'd say they are Garmin 510 headunits... and will therefore be using ANT+. The bluetooth capability of the 510 is for data upload via iOS / Android.

    Cheers thanks. Good info. Unless a prototype or test firmware but you're right.
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?

    Sure. If you knew that Froomes's FTP on a given climb is x for y duration then you'd have the keys mathematically speaking to know how to beat him. Doesn't mean you can physiologically. But you could train yourself to expose a potential weakness.

    That's why Froome looks at his stem all the time. He is watching his watts. As he and Kerrison know exactly where his thresholds during a stage and climb. Not going over these thresholds during the stage means he can stay within physical capabilities and use all of his power on the climb - i.e. Ventoux.

    Another example is Pantani. When he attacked on Hautacam in 2000 (i think about 9km out) Bruyneel called Ferrari. Ferrari had all of Pantani power files and knew how long he'd last at the speed he was going. Knowing his weight helped also. Bruyneel radio'ed Armstrong and they knew that Pantani would die.

    And he did.

    There is much more to it than this but this is just a basic example.

    Thing is, they know how sky ride, and know they need to increase their threshold, so i would imagine they would train to increase it by as much as they can, and if that ends up being higher or lower than the next guy they find out the following July, having a number could be detrimental as they may get to a stage where they match it, work on something else only to find Froome has added another .25w/kg
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Cheers thanks. Good info.
    When he meant to write:
    Cheers thanks. That completely dispels another of my crackpot conspiracy theories.
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  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    nic_77 wrote:
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Cheers thanks. Good info.
    When he meant to write:
    Cheers thanks. That completely dispels another of my crackpot conspiracy theories.

    You're a very rude young man nic_77. Maybe meet you at the urinals later instead?
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in, surely other teams could have a pretty good guess at what sort of number each other are putting out in a race judging by looking at their riders data and comparing the difference in speed? I get why training data would be so closely guarded but race data?

    Sure. If you knew that Froomes's FTP on a given climb is x for y duration then you'd have the keys mathematically speaking to know how to beat him. Doesn't mean you can physiologically. But you could train yourself to expose a potential weakness.

    That's why Froome looks at his stem all the time. He is watching his watts. As he and Kerrison know exactly where his thresholds during a stage and climb. Not going over these thresholds during the stage means he can stay within physical capabilities and use all of his power on the climb - i.e. Ventoux.

    Another example is Pantani. When he attacked on Hautacam in 2000 (i think about 9km out) Bruyneel called Ferrari. Ferrari had all of Pantani power files and knew how long he'd last at the speed he was going. Knowing his weight helped also. Bruyneel radio'ed Armstrong and they knew that Pantani would die.

    And he did.

    There is much more to it than this but this is just a basic example.

    Thing is, they know how sky ride, and know they need to increase their threshold, so i would imagine they would train to increase it by as much as they can, and if that ends up being higher or lower than the next guy they find out the following July, having a number could be detrimental as they may get to a stage where they match it, work on something else only to find Froome has added another .25w/kg

    Tactics will always be king.

    But if you look the way Sky rode in 2012. That was a pre-programmed event. The fact the entire Tour was relatively flat (compared to other editions) means the entire team had a job to ride a specific part of each stage on the front at a certain wattages. The weather helped also - i.e. lack of rain, high winds etc.

    The entire peloton just fell into the Sky slumber. Basso and others made comment that they couldn't attack as Rogers and Porte had dialed them into 430-445w all day.

    Armstrong was the first to crack Contador's weaknesses. He clearly knew his power files and stated was that when Contador attacks he very quickly gets 10-20 seconds on the field then returns to normal speed of the peloton. Last year at TA you saw thing. Contador attacked and Sky just kept riding at 430w (estimated) and Contador was reeled in a minute or so later.

    Nibaili is a different story. Attacking on a steep incline in the rain and then using the decent to his advantage gave him the distance. Sky who had blown themselves apart and were not together on the climb couldn't chase. Game over.

    Tactics wins.

    Back to your question is if you know Froom'e FTP is say 440w for 20 minutes then you know if you attack he'll catch you. But if you're Contador and you get insert 3-5 attacks at 30 seconds of 500w then that might break him. Therefore you'd train yourself in that manner. To be able to sustain attacking like that and returning to speed.

    But you need the data to be sure. Its not a fingers crossed equation.
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    I see the pro race crowd have a lot to learn about power meters. The nonsense on this thread is impressive even for pro race :wink:

    Whatever Sky are up to, don't take that to mean Stages works. If you're lucky you'll get ok data some of the time, but you'll never know when your L/R pedalling symmetry changes and introduces an additional error of several percent.

    DC Rainmaker is just one guy who maybe has good symmetry at all power levels, cadence, fatigue states, etc. Most folk aren't like that unfortunately for Stages, but there's so much ignorance when it comes to power meters that people are just assuming that the data must be good cos Stages and DC Rainmaker says it is.

    Getting Sky to use their toy power meters, even if it's just for show in races is quite a result for them though.
    More problems but still living....
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    whiteboytrash wrote:
    Back to your question is if you know Froom'e FTP is say 440w for 20 minutes then you know if you attack he'll catch you. But if you're Contador and you get insert 3-5 attacks at 30 seconds of 500w then that might break him. Therefore you'd train yourself in that manner. To be able to sustain attacking like that and returning to speed.

    But you need the data to be sure. Its not a fingers crossed equation.

    Froome's FTP tells you little about how many Watts he can hold for 3mins.
    More problems but still living....
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    amaferanga wrote:
    I see the pro race crowd have a lot to learn about power meters. The nonsense on this thread is impressive even for pro race :wink:

    Whatever Sky are up to, don't take that to mean Stages works. If you're lucky you'll get ok data some of the time, but you'll never know when your L/R pedalling symmetry changes and introduces an additional error of several percent.

    DC Rainmaker is just one guy who maybe has good symmetry at all power levels, cadence, fatigue states, etc. Most folk aren't like that unfortunately for Stages, but there's so much ignorance when it comes to power meters that people are just assuming that the data must be good cos Stages and DC Rainmaker says it is.

    Getting Sky to use their toy power meters, even if it's just for show in races is quite a result for them though.

    Interesting.

    What's your choice of power meter?
  • amaferanga
    amaferanga Posts: 6,789
    I'd use any of the real power meters: SRM, Quarq, Rotor, PowerTap, Power2max, etc.

    I currently use a Power2max cos they're reliable and give good data, but are reasonably priced (not much more than the cheapest Stages).
    More problems but still living....
  • whiteboytrash
    whiteboytrash Posts: 594
    amaferanga wrote:
    I'd use any of the real power meters: SRM, Quarq, Rotor, PowerTap, Power2max, etc.

    I currently use a Power2max cos they're reliable and give good data, but are reasonably priced (not much more than the cheapest Stages).

    Kerrison knows his stuff. Brialsford not so much. Hoping that DB hasn't done a deal to get Garmin/Stages on-board per marketing rather than rational sense.

    Stages to me are a consumer based product. Not professional level. Maybe they're just testing them? or SRM refused to supply equipment for this year?
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    amaferanga wrote:
    Whatever Sky are up to, don't take that to mean Stages works. If you're lucky you'll get ok data some of the time, but you'll never know when your L/R pedalling symmetry changes and introduces an additional error of several percent.
    Would you be willing to estimate said percentage over say an hour TT effort? And how this would compare to the +/-error advertised for all PMs.

    P.S. I'm definitely not defending my buying decision, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts (despite your condescending tone). I am more than willing to accept the compromise as the ease at which I can swap bikes far outweighs the absolute accuracy of the device.
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    ozzzyosborn206 wrote:
    would someone be able to explain what advantage you would actually get from hijacking someone elses power reading from a race that you were also in,


    Sweet feck all my friend, sweet feck all. Which is why everyone except wbt, joel and rayjay dismissed it as pure bullsh1t the second they read it....even Frenchie couldn't stomach that amount f anti-sky nonsense
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    nic_77 wrote:
    the absolute accuracy of the device.

    Given that (unless you have more than one, or are in to Strava Penis length comparisons) absolute accuracy is irrelevant anyway as long as it's consistent...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Christ this thread is weak.

    Power metres are the biggest red herring.

    If you feel your legs hurting, you're developing a fair proportion of your max power. If they're not ,you're not.



    Now, radios on the other hand, do occasionally affect a race, believe it or not.
    _
  • okgo
    okgo Posts: 4,368
    Lol rick you've got no idea. Mod you may be but you haven't the foggiest.

    And as for Pinarellos being laughed of weight weenies and them being crap bikes LOL WW is hardly the litmus test of a good bike. Half of them barely it out of the garage as they're so worries about shaving ten grams off a mech hanger or some other inane bollocks. Every bike in the pro peloton could easily be built well well below uci limit, weight is not the reason they are using this powermeter, I would like to know the real reason though.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,661
    Real Reason guess...?

    SRM are the daddies and can pretty much name their price from any team that did nt already have a PM sponsor. Stages offered them to Sky for free...

    I'm not sure why you think rick hasnt the foggiest though...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    okgo wrote:
    Lol rick you've got no idea. Mod you may be but you haven't the foggiest.

    .

    OK.

    Tell me how power metres affect racing then.

    Or radios don't.

    Or both.
    _
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    ddraver wrote:
    nic_77 wrote:
    the absolute accuracy of the device.

    Given that (unless you have more than one, or are in to Strava Penis length comparisons) absolute accuracy is irrelevant anyway as long as it's consistent...

    Right, to a degree. However, amerferanga is correct to question the reliability of left / right power data if those inconsistencies occurs within the dataset that you are looking to compare. My question is whether that variation can be estimated and whether it is statistically relevant when any device is already +/-2% accurate. For my indended use, I say not... for Sky's purposes it could be.
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