The whatever footie that's going on (with actual fans) thread

city_boy

Pinno wrote:

If only Watford had taken their chances. I mean, Chelsea were ripped apart defensively. Chlesea looked like Arsenal: good going forward but were carp at the back.

Even Ray Wilkins (and they don't get more biased than him) said Cheatski were poor, outplayed and very lucky to get the result.

So long as they keep getting the odd stuffy result to paper over the cracks and keep Mr Personality in a job, I'll be happy

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

If only Watford had taken their chances. I mean, Chelsea were ripped apart defensively. Chlesea looked like Arsenal: good going forward but were carp at the back.

Not sure which game you were watching. But I am sure Arsenal would be more than happy with a 4-2 win against Watford, rather than a 2-1 loss to them like last week. All that Europa league stuff must be taking its toll

The bottom line for any accountant is the 3 points I guess. BUT, having lost twice at home already this season and having to come from behind at home (may I remind you) to win is a clear indicator that Chelsea are good for 4th this year and have no chance of winning the league.
The luxury of no European competition last season meant that all Chelsea needed was 15 players on form but now they lack depth. I can see injuries in late December/early January being a crunch time for Cunte (if he doesn't get a P45 for Christmas) and Chelsea.
Man U don't ship many goals. Man U have an injury list to significant players far bigger than any of the top 4 and still keep second spot.
Man City have scored how many goals recently? (On the main, without Aguero).
Tottenham show class for the value of their squad, over and above where they should really be.

Keep comparing yourselves to Arsenal for whatever spurious and inexplicable reason by all means but you have to worry about the teams around you - City, United, Tottenham and possibly Liverpool and Arsenal and worry more about the lack of a steady ship guided by the petulant, impatient boy Abramovic.
It's the same cycle - change, success, dip on expectations, change, success... ad infinitum.

Fine, Over a 15 year period, Chelsea have achieved a lot but the current squad must be wondering what happens next and if this is not affecting performance, i'll eat my woolly Beany from Wiggle.

All this 'success' over the ;last 15 years has come at a managerial cost: 13 different managers. (If you discount Wilkins as caretaker manager and Mourinho's return) it still equals 14 changes. So, the long term is uncertainty and the pool of remaining world class managers who have not managed Chelsea is getting smaller and smaller.

You are not going to win the league or the CL this year, so you may as well have a scrap with Arsenal for the FA Cup again, seen as you lost the last time around.

Stevo_666

Pinno wrote:

Chelsea are good for 4th this year...

Careful what you wish for - if that happens, Arsenal will miss out on the Champions League again

Stevo_666

City Boy wrote:

Pinno wrote:

If only Watford had taken their chances. I mean, Chelsea were ripped apart defensively. Chlesea looked like Arsenal: good going forward but were carp at the back.

Even Ray Wilkins (and they don't get more biased than him) said Cheatski were poor, outplayed and very lucky to get the result.

So long as they keep getting the odd stuffy result to paper over the cracks and keep Mr Personality in a job, I'll be happy

You've got such a complex about Chelsea. It's quite amusing what an empty City trophy cabinet can do to your state of mind

Enjoy your love in with Pinno until the next European Trophy Dodgers' Derby

city_boy

Stevo 666 wrote:

You've got such a complex about Chelsea. It's quite amusing what an empty City trophy cabinet can do to your state of mind

Enjoy your love in with Pinno until the next European Trophy Dodgers' Derby

Mmmm!

As opposed to obsessing about empty seats at another team's (bigger and better) stadium and constantly harping on about a trophy that hasn't even sat in your cabinet for 5 years...?

Okaayyyy then

Stevo_666

Better 5 years than never

Stevo_666

City Boy wrote:

another team's (bigger and better) stadium

Cough cough. Watch this space
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/3021225/chelsea-new-stadium-open-stamford-bridge-capacity-when/

Anything you can do... and that doesn't just apply to European trophies, premier league trophies etc

city_boy

Stevo 666 wrote:

Better 5 years than never

Normally I would concede that point

However, I watched how you 'played' to win it, and I can honestly say I'd be more embarrassed than proud if that was the legacy of our one and only ECL trophy.

mr_goo

Looks like Ronald and Slaven will be on their merry ways in next couple of weeks. With regards to Ronald at the Toffees, why did he swap a good job at the Saints where he was well paid, got the team playing good stuff and had a board and supporters that only expected the odd foray into Europe? Plus he had a nice part of the world to live in, most of them live in the New Forest near the Saints training ground.
Moving to Everton was clearly a risk and the expectations are unrealistically high for a team that has only won the FA Cup in recent decades.

I still think Eddie Howe will be gone by end of this year.

rick_chasey

Here's some food for thought; Spurs' wage bill is half that of Liverpool.

city_boy

Rick Chasey wrote:

Here's some food for thought; Spurs' wage bill is half that of Liverpool.

A point, I'm sure, that hasn't gone unnoticed by the leeches, sorry - 'agents', that represent Spurs' top players. With the big Spanish two et al looking covetously at the likes of Kane and Alli, and even the manager, it will be interesting to see what transpires over the next couple of transfer windows. Especially if they have a successful season.

mr_goo

City Boy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Here's some food for thought; Spurs' wage bill is half that of Liverpool.

A point, I'm sure, that hasn't gone unnoticed by the leeches, sorry - 'agents', that represent Spurs' top players. With the big Spanish two et al looking covetously at the likes of Kane and Alli, and even the manager, it will be interesting to see what transpires over the next couple of transfer windows. Especially if they have a successful season.

Spurs 'jewels in the crown' are more likely to go if they have another good season without picking up anything. Which is most likely.

lostboysaint

Mr Goo wrote:

Looks like Ronald and Slaven will be on their merry ways in next couple of weeks. With regards to Ronald at the Toffees, why did he swap a good job at the Saints where he was well paid, got the team playing good stuff and had a board and supporters that only expected the odd foray into Europe? Plus he had a nice part of the world to live in, most of them live in the New Forest near the Saints training ground.
Moving to Everton was clearly a risk and the expectations are unrealistically high for a team that has only won the FA Cup in recent decades.

I still think Eddie Howe will be gone by end of this year.

Ronald has gone.

He didn't want to swap the job. He thought it would be a good idea to try and hold the club to ransom over control of the first team purchases etc. and wouldn't sign a new contract, waved the Everton offer at the board and they said "ok, f&&k off then!" having already got Puel lined up - because that's how they work. The football wasn't fantastic under him, it was at it's best under Pochettino but even he's learned more (his team's performance yesterday was a perfect example of how much more pragmatic he can be now - letting Liverpool come onto them and then breaking) when he left us he only every had a plan A. (Most Spurs fans say the same about his first two seasons at WHL) Koeman inherited a fantastic squad, Saints provided a couple of excellent purchases - as they do - and his aura, combined with the fluidity that the MoPo team had already got, inspired for a season, then it went very, very stagnant. That'll sound familiar to an Everton fan. Or even to fans of wherever he's been before, have a look at his record - it's almost Mourinho'esque in terms of time spent at a club!

Who would you replace Eddie Howe with?

lostboysaint

Rick Chasey wrote:

Here's some food for thought; Spurs' wage bill is half that of Liverpool.

Klopp would have been out of any other club by now. He's underachieved big style.

mr_goo

lostboysaint wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Looks like Ronald and Slaven will be on their merry ways in next couple of weeks. With regards to Ronald at the Toffees, why did he swap a good job at the Saints where he was well paid, got the team playing good stuff and had a board and supporters that only expected the odd foray into Europe? Plus he had a nice part of the world to live in, most of them live in the New Forest near the Saints training ground.
Moving to Everton was clearly a risk and the expectations are unrealistically high for a team that has only won the FA Cup in recent decades.

I still think Eddie Howe will be gone by end of this year.

Ronald has gone.

He didn't want to swap the job. He thought it would be a good idea to try and hold the club to ransom over control of the first team purchases etc. and wouldn't sign a new contract, waved the Everton offer at the board and they said "ok, f&&k off then!" having already got Puel lined up - because that's how they work. The football wasn't fantastic under him, it was at it's best under Pochettino but even he's learned more (his team's performance yesterday was a perfect example of how much more pragmatic he can be now - letting Liverpool come onto them and then breaking) when he left us he only every had a plan A. (Most Spurs fans say the same about his first two seasons at WHL) Koeman inherited a fantastic squad, Saints provided a couple of excellent purchases - as they do - and his aura, combined with the fluidity that the MoPo team had already got, inspired for a season, then it went very, very stagnant. That'll sound familiar to an Everton fan. Or even to fans of wherever he's been before, have a look at his record - it's almost Mourinho'esque in terms of time spent at a club!

Who would you replace Eddie Howe with?

I have no idea who would replace Eddie Howe. But now that Ronald has gone I would not be surprised to see Howe as a potential replacement, given that he is a lifelong supporter of Everton. But then again would you trade being revered as the greatest thing since sliced bread and living in a multi million pound mansion at Canford Cliffs where you can walk your dog on the beach every morning for the wet and wild north west?

lostboysaint

Mr Goo wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Looks like Ronald and Slaven will be on their merry ways in next couple of weeks. With regards to Ronald at the Toffees, why did he swap a good job at the Saints where he was well paid, got the team playing good stuff and had a board and supporters that only expected the odd foray into Europe? Plus he had a nice part of the world to live in, most of them live in the New Forest near the Saints training ground.
Moving to Everton was clearly a risk and the expectations are unrealistically high for a team that has only won the FA Cup in recent decades.

I still think Eddie Howe will be gone by end of this year.

Ronald has gone.

He didn't want to swap the job. He thought it would be a good idea to try and hold the club to ransom over control of the first team purchases etc. and wouldn't sign a new contract, waved the Everton offer at the board and they said "ok, f&&k off then!" having already got Puel lined up - because that's how they work. The football wasn't fantastic under him, it was at it's best under Pochettino but even he's learned more (his team's performance yesterday was a perfect example of how much more pragmatic he can be now - letting Liverpool come onto them and then breaking) when he left us he only every had a plan A. (Most Spurs fans say the same about his first two seasons at WHL) Koeman inherited a fantastic squad, Saints provided a couple of excellent purchases - as they do - and his aura, combined with the fluidity that the MoPo team had already got, inspired for a season, then it went very, very stagnant. That'll sound familiar to an Everton fan. Or even to fans of wherever he's been before, have a look at his record - it's almost Mourinho'esque in terms of time spent at a club!

Who would you replace Eddie Howe with?

I have no idea who would replace Eddie Howe. But now that Ronald has gone I would not be surprised to see Howe as a potential replacement, given that he is a lifelong supporter of Everton. But then again would you trade being revered as the greatest thing since sliced bread and living in a multi million pound mansion at Canford Cliffs where you can walk your dog on the beach every morning for the wet and wild north west?

He's done that once and was told, in no uncertain terms, by Mrs Howe that if he didn't relocate back South then she'd be the ex Mrs Howe and he'd be worth precisely half what he was worth beforehand.

city_boy

Mr Goo wrote:

City Boy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Here's some food for thought; Spurs' wage bill is half that of Liverpool.

A point, I'm sure, that hasn't gone unnoticed by the leeches, sorry - 'agents', that represent Spurs' top players. With the big Spanish two et al looking covetously at the likes of Kane and Alli, and even the manager, it will be interesting to see what transpires over the next couple of transfer windows. Especially if they have a successful season.

Spurs 'jewels in the crown' are more likely to go if they have another good season without picking up anything. Which is most likely.

You're right. But whether it's a good season but without a trophy or a winning season, I think the agents will be agitating for a better deal for their players. If it's not a move, it'll be for a much bigger and better contract comensarate with the other big clubs. Then it gets interesting as Levy is one of the more stubborn (or principled, if you see it that way) chairman in the league.

My guess is next season they will either be without a few of their current top players or with a bigger wage bill.

mr_goo

lostboysaint wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Looks like Ronald and Slaven will be on their merry ways in next couple of weeks. With regards to Ronald at the Toffees, why did he swap a good job at the Saints where he was well paid, got the team playing good stuff and had a board and supporters that only expected the odd foray into Europe? Plus he had a nice part of the world to live in, most of them live in the New Forest near the Saints training ground.
Moving to Everton was clearly a risk and the expectations are unrealistically high for a team that has only won the FA Cup in recent decades.

I still think Eddie Howe will be gone by end of this year.

Ronald has gone.

He didn't want to swap the job. He thought it would be a good idea to try and hold the club to ransom over control of the first team purchases etc. and wouldn't sign a new contract, waved the Everton offer at the board and they said "ok, f&&k off then!" having already got Puel lined up - because that's how they work. The football wasn't fantastic under him, it was at it's best under Pochettino but even he's learned more (his team's performance yesterday was a perfect example of how much more pragmatic he can be now - letting Liverpool come onto them and then breaking) when he left us he only every had a plan A. (Most Spurs fans say the same about his first two seasons at WHL) Koeman inherited a fantastic squad, Saints provided a couple of excellent purchases - as they do - and his aura, combined with the fluidity that the MoPo team had already got, inspired for a season, then it went very, very stagnant. That'll sound familiar to an Everton fan. Or even to fans of wherever he's been before, have a look at his record - it's almost Mourinho'esque in terms of time spent at a club!

Who would you replace Eddie Howe with?

I have no idea who would replace Eddie Howe. But now that Ronald has gone I would not be surprised to see Howe as a potential replacement, given that he is a lifelong supporter of Everton. But then again would you trade being revered as the greatest thing since sliced bread and living in a multi million pound mansion at Canford Cliffs where you can walk your dog on the beach every morning for the wet and wild north west?

He's done that once and was told, in no uncertain terms, by Mrs Howe that if he didn't relocate back South then she'd be the ex Mrs Howe and he'd be worth precisely half what he was worth beforehand.

That's true. I remember now. That was reason why he quit Burnley. So it's Saints or any big London club for Eddie.
Me thinks he'll be waiting for a long time for a viable proposition to occur.

lostboysaint

Given that our manager was handed probably the best squad since the 80s and is turning out the most turgid football this side of Pulis I'd consider him at the moment

mr_goo

lostboysaint wrote:

Given that our manager was handed probably the best squad since the 80s and is turning out the most turgid football this side of Pulis I'd consider him at the moment

Saints may be playing boring football. But at least they've notched up a few results and are unlikey to be looking at the drop, unlike their neighbours in Dorset.

lostboysaint

Not sure where it's gone wrong for you lot other than in recruitment - you've bought some proper shite and for a lot of money. I still think you'll be fine. Plenty of proper crap (relatively speaking) in the league.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey

Aren't Arsenal one of the few teams that turn a profit ever year?

That'll by why he keeps his job.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aren't Arsenal one of the few teams that turn a profit ever year?

That'll by why he keeps his job.

Wenger isn't responsible for the P&L.

I think its fair comment that some managers of other clubs with expectations like Arsenal would have been sacked by now if their team performed like Arsenal. They didn't even finish 4th last season and he got a contract extension.

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aren't Arsenal one of the few teams that turn a profit ever year?

That'll by why he keeps his job.

Wenger isn't responsible for the P&L.

I think its fair comment that some managers of other clubs with expectations like Arsenal would have been sacked by now if their team performed like Arsenal. They didn't even finish 4th last season and he got a contract extension.

I dunno.

Depends how you look at it. The fans have trophy expectations; owners presumably have revenue expectations.

So the owners may see the monetary value of staying in the champions league to be x, and as long as Wenger can pick, train and coach players who are, for whatever reason cheaper, and keep the wages below y, then they'll keep him on.

Can't keep the turnover high and the size high without certain levels of success, but I expect the owners' version of success isn't the same as the fans'.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aren't Arsenal one of the few teams that turn a profit ever year?

That'll by why he keeps his job.

Wenger isn't responsible for the P&L.

I think its fair comment that some managers of other clubs with expectations like Arsenal would have been sacked by now if their team performed like Arsenal. They didn't even finish 4th last season and he got a contract extension.

I dunno.

Depends how you look at it. The fans have trophy expectations; owners presumably have revenue expectations.

So the owners may see the monetary value of staying in the champions league to be x, and as long as Wenger can pick, train and coach players who are, for whatever reason cheaper, and keep the wages below y, then they'll keep him on.

Can't keep the turnover high and the size high without certain levels of success, but I expect the owners' version of success isn't the same as the fans'.

A fine plan only Arsenal aren't in the Champions League this season...

pinno

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Aren't Arsenal one of the few teams that turn a profit ever year?

That'll by why he keeps his job.

Wenger isn't responsible for the P&L.

I think its fair comment that some managers of other clubs with expectations like Arsenal would have been sacked by now if their team performed like Arsenal. They didn't even finish 4th last season and he got a contract extension.

I dunno.

Depends how you look at it. The fans have trophy expectations; owners presumably have revenue expectations.

So the owners may see the monetary value of staying in the champions league to be x, and as long as Wenger can pick, train and coach players who are, for whatever reason cheaper, and keep the wages below y, then they'll keep him on.

Can't keep the turnover high and the size high without certain levels of success, but I expect the owners' version of success isn't the same as the fans'.

A fine plan only Arsenal aren't in the Champions League this season...

"The Premier League’s highest spending clubs this summer were Manchester City (£220.5m), Chelsea (£187.5m), Manchester United (£146m) and Everton (£145m). Only five clubs ended up in the black on their transfer dealings: Arsenal, Burnley, Stoke City, Swansea City and Tottenham Hotspur. For comparison, spending in the Championship was down from £215m last summer to £195m."

That means that Chelsea should be second in the league.
If you want success, you have to have high rolling Russians, Americans or Arabs to bank roll it

rick_chasey

Yeah, there's success as in places in the league, and there's success in terms of doing that in a sustainable way.

My read of the Arsenal situation is that the owners belive Wenger is a manager who is best suited to a club who have a lower wage bill than their rivals; better at bringing through talent, can find bargains etc.

Man City & Chelsea are just, to varying degrees, vanity toys and entirely loss making. The owners are rich enough to either tolerate that, or to see them like bike teams, sunk money in return for marketing exposure.

lostboysaint

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah, there's success as in places in the league, and there's success in terms of doing that in a sustainable way.

My read of the Arsenal situation is that the owners belive Wenger is a manager who is best suited to a club who have a lower wage bill than their rivals; better at bringing through talent, can find bargains etc.

Man City & Chelsea are just, to varying degrees, vanity toys and entirely loss making. The owners are rich enough to either tolerate that, or to see them like bike teams, sunk money in return for marketing exposure.

The owners need to take a really good look at exactly what Wenger has done for them in recent years then. He hasn't developed talent - AO-C could have cut the Arsenal step out of his career and just done the usual Saints - Liverpool route. Walcott hasn't developed, Gibbs is now at WBA, Ramsey is no different to when he was at Cardiff, Ozil and Sanchez - Arsenal's most important players by a country mile - were at RM and Barca, Cech is ex Chelsea and so on. Wilshere?

The myth that Wenger develops talent should have died a long, long time ago, along with most of the young players careers that he's put in charge of.

Arsenal's owners (and it's only Silent Stan who appears to be the problem) need to decide whether they want to become another Southampton or Everton (most seasons) or even Liverpool and just fight for those lower European slots and have a good cup run or be profitable and perceived as a "well run club" that's never going to fight for major titles again (PL and CL). In getting Wenger signed for another two seasons Stan clearly decided the latter. Usmanov may not think the same but he hasn't got the leverage at the moment.....

lostboysaint

I forgot to mention the clubs appalling injury record during his tenure as well. Always towards the top (more often than not at the top) of the table of number of players injured - usually with long term problems as well - and yet has never changed his training methods or medical staff.

I'm sure I've "discussed" this with a Gooner on here before. And yet they've got another five out now.