The way to behave
Comments
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mile muncher wrote:mfin wrote:Gozzy wrote:mfin wrote:
It's not the same at all, as most people in Football tops are supporters. If you were playing five-a-side and everybody is knocking about and someone turns up in full look-a-likey Lionel Messi gear, he'd look like a bit of a plonker just like cyslists do if they are out in full team kit.... it's not a problem though, in fact it gives other cyclists something to laugh at.
Ok, so you look a bit of a dick and someone might laugh.
Does that mean people need to get arsey over whether or not you're in a team or how good a rider you are?
I mean really? Why would you care?
To your first point, yes I agree, you look a bit of a dick and someone might laugh.
To your second point see your first point, that's all there is to it.
Frankly I think men in lycra look ridiculous whatever the flavour of kit they wear, I still wear it as its the best kit for the job, but a bit of humilty is required. Chances are your wife/girlfriend has a good laugh at you in your kit. Face it you are dressed like some sort of MP in a weekend gimp suit, to then dare comment on what anyone else wears, anywhere, ever, is a joke. To think one type is better or more appropriate than any others is just vacuous shallow nonsense.
Speak for yourself, I look fabulous in my lycra0 -
According to the wife, I only think I look fabulous in mine.0
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I'm sure a lot of fat chicks think the same when they squeeze themselves into their 'sexy underwear'.lewiskinch wrote:Speak for yourself, I look fabulous in my lycra0 -
morstar wrote:Mikey23 wrote:I can't see that there's very much future in having the moral high ground, being totally in the right... But dead
This^
Can't beat a bit of blindly enforcing your rights regardless of consequences.
The problem is that the more we give, the more the motorists take to the point where they're driving you off the road just because you're there.
Several stretches of my regular ride are just not appropriate for overtaking and there is no way I'll be riding in the verge just so they can squeeze past. You HAVE to take a more defensive position (and it's the equivalent of riding two abreast) to force the overtaking car onto the opposite carriageway - or that's where they'd have to go - at which point they seem to realise that perhaps it's best not to overtake when there's a chance they'll get into a head on collision with another vehicle.
Of course, in taking primary position you must also relinquish it as soon as practical - or at least be seen to do so even if you're still not in the gutter.
I don't mind slowing or stopping to let vehicles past that would otherwise be seriously inconvenienced - such as an approach to a narrow road with a climb where an HGV would have to wait for me to get to the top before he could safely pass - it's sensible to let him past at the bottom - if possible.0 -
Ahhh the primary position... aka "Why the f*ck is that f*cking cyclist in the f*cking middle of the f*cking road?". I get the distinct impression most drivers have never heard of the concept
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He didn't say riding in the middle of the road, he meant riding a bit further out, so you can be seen to move in when you've heard the car behind and they can tell you have moved in a bit and in doing so you are encouraging them to then overtake because you have prepared yourself for them to do so... it does work quite well, and it's surprising how many friendly waves and beeps you get from drivers for doing it.0
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Yes, *I* know what it means, I was just trying to simulate the reaction of your typical taxi driver or white van man or impatient commuter who has never heard the phrase "primary position"! To them, all that they can see is that you're not riding where you should be (ie in the gutter) and are therefore daring to obstruct their journey.mfin wrote:He didn't say riding in the middle of the road, he meant riding a bit further out, so you can be seen to move in when you've heard the car behind and they can tell you have moved in a bit and in doing so you are encouraging them to then overtake because you have prepared yourself for them to do so... it does work quite well, and it's surprising how many friendly waves and beeps you get from drivers for doing it.0 -
You missed the point again, nevermind. The object is not to be riding in a position that looks like "you're not riding where you should be", just to ride 'slightly out, so you can be seen to be moving in to let traffic past', not so far out that anyone would think you are "daring to obstruct their journey". It's not something you can provide measurements for, you'll probably either know what it means from that description or won't.0
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If anyone is missing the point here it's you... I understand what you're saying. I do it all the time when I'm out riding. What I'm saying is that from the perspective of your average driver, if they can't drive past you without taking their foot off the accelerator, they will consider you to be obstructing their journey. It's not a case of "how far out" you are or if you move back in just a few seconds later. All they care about is that they had to slow down briefly. That's enough to annoy a huge number of people, resulting in them being far more likely to attempt a dangerous overtaking move on you. What about this is difficult to grasp?mfin wrote:You missed the point again, nevermind. The object is not to be riding in a position that looks like "you're not riding where you should be", just to ride 'slightly out, so you can be seen to be moving in to let traffic past', not so far out that anyone would think you are "daring to obstruct their journey". It's not something you can provide measurements for, you'll probably either know what it means from that description or won't.0 -
All this arguing. It's no way to behave.0
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It's not difficult to grasp, I know what you are saying and how you are saying it, but when you say things like "What I'm saying is that from the perspective of your average driver, if they can't drive past you without taking their foot off the accelerator, they will consider you to be obstructing their journey" I don't agree with that sweeping statement.
Plus, the way I mentioned did NOT mean to slow down drivers all the time, in fact I try to completely avoid doing so, a lot of the time it's just about them having seen you a 'little more out' and can see you are aware of them because you have moved in, I believe this contributes to my safety.
Anyway, don't worry about it, you're right and I'm wrong in your mind, so don't worry about it. Happy cycling and riding in ways that you justify with comments like "If it pisses off the cars behind that's their problem, isn't it?".0 -
Gozzy wrote:All this arguing. It's no way to behave.
It's good discussion though, it is amazing how some people ride. If I go for a ride with someone I haven't before and they ride inconsiderately I will tell them in a nice way, if they don't change what they're doing I don't go out with them again because I don't wanna be directly associated with inconsiderate cyclists by riding with them.
I don't often go out with my brother cycling as we're 100's of miles away but, I went out with him a while back and he'd picked up a habit of riding quite a way out. I was really concerned, and it upset me cos I knew it was risky, I told him he would get hurt. A month later he called me up just after getting back from hospital with a smashed up ankle where a car had clipped him off, he was lucky to not be properly hurt. When I asked him how it happened I said "how far out were you and were you making people go round you?" and he basically said "too far out, you were right it's not worth it". I've ridden with him since and now he rides a lot more sensibly.0 -
Some consideration for other users is all it takes, from both sides. People's self obsession with their own journey and to hell with anyone else, is the problem.
Unless you're driving an emergency vehicle then I think you really have to be prepared to show some humility on the road, or risk ending up in an emergency vehicle.0 -
Gozzy wrote:Some consideration for other users is all it takes, from both sides. People's self obsession with their own journey and to hell with anyone else, is the problem.
Unless you're driving an emergency vehicle then I think you really have to be prepared to show some humility on the road, or risk ending up in an emergency vehicle.
Even if you are driving the emergency vehicle - they may have priority, but they can't barge past ... mind u I'm not sure I'd want to get in their way!0 -
We seem to be talking past each other here - I don't think you're wrong! How many different ways can I say that I agree with everything you're saying? I'm simply pointing out that you can ride in that way, being very careful, being very considerate, willing to make it as easy as possible for other traffic around you and to some people it will not make any difference. The mere fact that you are there at all is the problem for these people. Obviously not all drivers are going to react like that, but then I didn't say every driver would. An example would be anyone who belongs to the "bikes shouldn't be allowed on the road at all" crowd.mfin wrote:It's not difficult to grasp, I know what you are saying and how you are saying it, but when you say things like "What I'm saying is that from the perspective of your average driver, if they can't drive past you without taking their foot off the accelerator, they will consider you to be obstructing their journey" I don't agree with that sweeping statement.
Plus, the way I mentioned did NOT mean to slow down drivers all the time, in fact I try to completely avoid doing so, a lot of the time it's just about them having seen you a 'little more out' and can see you are aware of them because you have moved in, I believe this contributes to my safety.
Anyway, don't worry about it, you're right and I'm wrong in your mind, so don't worry about it. Happy cycling and riding in ways that you justify with comments like "If it pisses off the cars behind that's their problem, isn't it?".
You seem to be overly focused on my comment about pissing drivers off, which I meant in the sense that if they choose to get annoyed at me riding along in front of them (or in that case, at people riding abreast) there's not much you can do about it. Say for example you're riding along 2 abreast having a chat, it's a bit windy and you don't hear a car coming up behind you for 5 or 10 seconds. Then you notice it, immediately get into single file, car overtakes. For some drivers, that 5-10 seconds they have to sit behind you will annoy the sh*t out of them, because of the aforementioned total lack of patience they tend to exhibit. Nothing you can do about it.
You simply cannot ride on the roads in a way that is guaranteed not to annoy any motorists. You talk about trying to "completely" avoid slowing them down, but you know as well as I do that that's not possible. You have to balance your own safety against their convenience in how you ride, and some (once again: SOME) drivers will always react badly to being inconvenienced.
If that doesn't get my point across I don't know what will..0 -
The driver who hit him was at fault, not your brother. If I were to overtake a lorry and hit it, it's my fault. An overtaking driver/rider should always make sure they leave enough space to overtake safely, and if they can't, they shouldn't overtake. When I drove to work this morning I didn't hit any other vehicles or cyclists because I chose to drive safely.mfin wrote:I don't often go out with my brother cycling as we're 100's of miles away but, I went out with him a while back and he'd picked up a habit of riding quite a way out. I was really concerned, and it upset me cos I knew it was risky, I told him he would get hurt. A month later he called me up just after getting back from hospital with a smashed up ankle where a car had clipped him off, he was lucky to not be properly hurt. When I asked him how it happened I said "how far out were you and were you making people go round you?" and he basically said "too far out, you were right it's not worth it". I've ridden with him since and now he rides a lot more sensibly.0 -
Mfin - have you read cyclecraft? Genuine question...
From your posts you seem to be advocating riding in the gutter/making sure not to slow down cars at any cost. Primary does indeed mean riding in the middle of the lane sometimes. I don't try to slow down cars but if that's what taking primary does for a little bit then so be it... I will of course pull back to secondary as soon as is safe.
Apologies if I have mis-interpreted your posts, that's just how they have come across to me.
With regards to riding 2 a breast - I never do it so can't really add anything to the debate, but I suppose it can be similar to taking primary.0 -
We're all roughly on the same page, apart from the "The driver who hit him was at fault, not your brother." ...whilst true, it's my brother that put himself in the position where that was more likely to happen, and it did.
I'm not being an argumentative little sh1t, at least that's not what I mean to do. What I am doing though is pointing out that there are people, who I consider to be idiots, who ride in an arrogant way that 1. put themselves at unnecessary risk and 2. inconvenience drivers whilst doing so.
That's all.
There are also fat people in Sky kit 0 -
dai_t75 wrote:Mfin - have you read cyclecraft? Genuine question...
Straight answer? No.Primary does indeed mean riding in the middle of the lane sometimes.
Well, I don't know about this apparent absolute definition you allure to, there is no 'dictionary definition', it is open to interpretation or dismissal as an irrelevant term, I get a gut reaction of its meaning it but respond to how I think other people are referring to as its meaning.0 -
My primary primary position is to avoid riding on fast A roads where possible, IMHO the greater the speed differential between road users the greater the chance of an accident (by the time allocating blame happens it's a bit late, particularly for a cyclist). I have driven past an event being run on the A3 south of Petersfield at dusk in drizzle.......utter lunacy.
My secondary primary position is generally where the inner tyre of most vehicles would be, this gives me the cleanest surface to ride on & hopefully doesn't antagonise/ seem arrogant to drivers. If the carriageway is too narrow for overtaking safely on the same side of the road I tend to sit wider, if it is wide enough I'll move in to let someone past.
Impeding other road users unnecessarily (whatever you are on/ in) by creating an object that is too wide or long to easily safely overtake is both rude & potentially dangerous.0 -
GiantMike wrote:
The driver who hit him was at fault, not your brother. If I were to overtake a lorry and hit it, it's my fault. An overtaking driver/rider should always make sure they leave enough space to overtake safely, and if they can't, they shouldn't overtake. When I drove to work this morning I didn't hit any other vehicles or cyclists because I chose to drive safely.mfin wrote:I don't often go out with my brother cycling as we're 100's of miles away but, I went out with him a while back and he'd picked up a habit of riding quite a way out. I was really concerned, and it upset me cos I knew it was risky, I told him he would get hurt. A month later he called me up just after getting back from hospital with a smashed up ankle where a car had clipped him off, he was lucky to not be properly hurt. When I asked him how it happened I said "how far out were you and were you making people go round you?" and he basically said "too far out, you were right it's not worth it". I've ridden with him since and now he rides a lot more sensibly.
It is the driver's fault, obviously. But the driver isn't the one with the broken ankle. Had the bloke done what his brother suggested earlier he might not have got broken.0 -
Excellent logic, are you a judge?Phil_D wrote:GiantMike wrote:
The driver who hit him was at fault, not your brother. If I were to overtake a lorry and hit it, it's my fault. An overtaking driver/rider should always make sure they leave enough space to overtake safely, and if they can't, they shouldn't overtake. When I drove to work this morning I didn't hit any other vehicles or cyclists because I chose to drive safely.mfin wrote:I don't often go out with my brother cycling as we're 100's of miles away but, I went out with him a while back and he'd picked up a habit of riding quite a way out. I was really concerned, and it upset me cos I knew it was risky, I told him he would get hurt. A month later he called me up just after getting back from hospital with a smashed up ankle where a car had clipped him off, he was lucky to not be properly hurt. When I asked him how it happened I said "how far out were you and were you making people go round you?" and he basically said "too far out, you were right it's not worth it". I've ridden with him since and now he rides a lot more sensibly.
It is the driver's fault, obviously. But the driver isn't the one with the broken ankle. Had the bloke done what his brother suggested earlier he might not have got broken.
Had the cyclist not been on the road he'd have been even safer. The difference between being hit by a driver while in the 'primary position' or being hit by a driver while riding in the gutter is rather irrelevant. The driver made the decision to overtake and drove the car into the cyclist. It's all his fault, but if we all mitigated against other people's inability to drive/walk/live normally we'd never go out of the house.0 -
On a single carriageway A road which isn't very wide but with a fairly narrow cycle lane on either side I sometimes see guys riding on the road, not the path, thus forcing drivers to overtake them by crossing the central white line. This isn't a problem when there's no oncoming traffic, but that's rare. I sit in the cycle lane and generally don't have a problem. Some w4nkshafts though don't make any allowances and feel very close when they pass. When you speak of a primary position in this scenario is it the cycle path or the road? I worry myself silly about being clipped by a passing car (see mfin's post) if I'm right on the edge of the path, especially on the route home from work when riding into the low the sun.0
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fatsmoker wrote:On a single carriageway A road which isn't very wide but with a fairly narrow cycle lane on either side I sometimes see guys riding on the road, not the path, thus forcing drivers to overtake them by crossing the central white line. This isn't a problem when there's no oncoming traffic, but that's rare. I sit in the cycle lane and generally don't have a problem. Some w4nkshafts though don't make any allowances and feel very close when they pass. When you speak of a primary position in this scenario is it the cycle path or the road? I worry myself silly about being clipped by a passing car (see mfin's post) if I'm right on the edge of the path, especially on the route home from work when riding into the low the sun.
I know round by me the cycle paths that are at the side of the road are generally very badly surfaced, full of broken glass, and due to the camber of the road if it has been raining full of all manner of cr4p from the road. I use cycle paths as much as possible but sometimes its just not an option!
also, oddly enough, the only time i've been hit by a car was when i was on a cycle path!www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
Mostly great points made about riding behaviour, I honestly try and think how my riding actions reflect on all cyclist, short of being a shrinking violet :oops: that cringes and shrinks back in traffic
, but one thing I have taken to heart as I have been struck twice, once as a pedestrian and once as a cyclist, you may be in the right but being hurt or dead doesn't help you one bit (I was legally in the right both times, it still was a painful experience). You are still hurt or worse, dead. We lose every time with a vehicle, be it an automobile, lorry or other types of transport, the weight difference and the speeds take the laws of physics seriously every time :roll: Lets just got for a ride, the heck with all this stuff...0
