Will Horner get a new contract for 2014

Crankbrother

Ha, that'll teach me not to quickly Google (as they were 2 GT's I was too busy/bored to follow completely) ...

Horner won on belief and fresh legs (something you see in sports where random factors apply) rather than 'profesionalism' and 'team work' ... neither of those ethos have ultimately shown themselves to be a trully winning formulae in the past 2 decades ...

joelsim

Let's not even start on Cobo...he has even less provenance than Horner

thomthom

Crankbrother wrote:

Horner won on belief and fresh legs

And incredible abilities to recover, train and improve as an overall rider just after and despite of 6 months of injuries...

joelsim

ThomThom wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

Horner won on belief and fresh legs

And incredible abilities to recover, train and improve as an overall rider just after and despite of 6 months of injuries...

At nearly 42 years old too. Magicman.

He must get a top banana contract now, surely. No team in their right mind could refuse him. I mean, he's obviously so talented that he can go on for another 20 or 30 years.

A late developer. Maybe he didn't start puberty til late, maybe he hasn't started growing hair yet :shock:

jimmythecuckoo

Any announcement as yet?

Richmond Racer

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Any announcement as yet?

No. The fact that (according to one article) his agent had even contacted Drapac, makes me think that maybe the doors have been shut all around

shinyhelmut

Joelsim wrote:

ThomThom wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

Horner won on belief and fresh legs

And incredible abilities to recover, train and improve as an overall rider just after and despite of 6 months of injuries...

At nearly 42 years old too. Magicman.

He must get a top banana contract now, surely. No team in their right mind could refuse him. I mean, he's obviously so talented that he can go on for another 20 or 30 years.

A late developer. Maybe he didn't start puberty til late, maybe he hasn't started growing hair yet :shock:

morstar

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Any announcement as yet?

This is the pertinent question. Can't understand why he'd openly dismiss Trek if he didn't have a deal elsewhere done and dusted.

Unless he is only prepared to put in the time and effort for a big bucks contract. Although that would seem counter to his professed enjoyment of the sport during the Vuelta.

joelsim

I suspect the offer from Trek is close to what he is currently earning. And not leader.

FocusZing

Deleted.

shinyhelmut

I've not listened yet but here's an interview;

http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2013/10/chris-horner/

blazing_saddles

Time to throw some more fuel on this fire. It's dying down a bit:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/sport ... ted=2&_r=1
(this is the second page of two)

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... aign=tweet

Richmond Racer

^JV RT'd link to that Outside Online article a few hours ago. Added to previous tweets his opinion on Horner seems pretty clear

gsvbagpuss

Is there any medical expert saying the figures released are good? That Outside Online feature seems to be pretty damning but I'm no blood levels expert

Richmond Racer

Well, it is one guy's view, though it does seem to echo what Robin Parisotto was saying in his Velonation interview.

But then its all about interpretation.

Difference is that Veloclinic wants to shout DOPER DOPER, whereas Parisotto - as you should expect from someone who's actually involved in an official capacity and on the APMU, rather than just a blogger - says, 'yes it does throw up question marks, and I'd want more in comp and OOC samples to see whether the pattern persists or whether it was a one-off'

frenchfighter

Much of the same stuff said in the link I posted a while back which people chose to rubbish.

Yellow Peril

I suspect he's done for as far as obtaining a really lucrative contract for next year is concerned. He's better off taking what's on offer at Trek. If his form in the Vuelta was honest and sustainable then opportunities will arise for him to "Fenton".

[cruel joke]Has anyone ever seen Horner and JTL in the same room together?[cruel joke]

RichN95.

GSVBagpuss wrote:

Is there any medical expert saying the figures released are good?

Probably.

But the people who clamour for data aren't the sort of people who are going to write that story. Take Velonation for example. That's a blog which trades on doping and scandal. A story from them with an expert supporting Horner is as likely as a pro-Tory editorial in the Guardian. They have to play to their readership and try and get hits for advertising, so they will go through as many experts as the need to get the story they want.

This is why it is daft for riders to release data.

Richmond Racer

Yellow Peril wrote:

I suspect he's done for as far as obtaining a really lucrative contract for next year is concerned. He's better off taking what's on offer at Trek. If his form in the Vuelta was honest and sustainable then opportunities will arise for him to "Fenton".

[cruel joke]Has anyone ever seen Horner and JTL in the same room together?[cruel joke]

GO TO THE NAUGHTY STEP...NOW

Richmond Racer

RichN95 wrote:

GSVBagpuss wrote:

Is there any medical expert saying the figures released are good?

Probably.

But the people who clamour for data aren't the sort of people who are going to write that story. Take Velonation for example. That's a blog which trades on doping and scandal. A story from them with an expert supporting Horner is as likely as a pro-Tory editorial in the Guardian. They have to play to their readership and try and get hits for advertising, so they will go through as many experts as the need to get the story they want.

This is why it is daft for riders to release data.

If I were a pro I could be as clean as the cleanest thing and still I would never release my data

salsiccia1

No-one's clean in the eyes of those looking for the dirty.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

But the people who clamour for data aren't the sort of people who are going to write that story. Take Velonation for example. That's a blog which trades on doping and scandal. A story from them with an expert supporting Horner is as likely as a pro-Tory editorial in the Guardian. They have to play to their readership and try and get hits for advertising, so they will go through as many experts as the need to get the story they want.

That's unkind to the Guardian - hell, they let Dacre have a piece recently :P

But yes, I agree. I see today JV has been telling Shane he's wrong on some of this stuff. I once had a steaming twitter argument with him about this kind of thing. I'd had more sense out of Bren Gallagher and that's saying something

ddraver

with JV or Shane?

I'd have enjoyed that either way...

iainf72

ddraver wrote:

with JV or Shane?

I'd have enjoyed that either way...

Shane

Macaloon

The JV/Stokes smackdown included veloclinic, who 'fessed to the statistical 'irrelevance' of the papers he cited in his recent piece on Horner's 'dodgy' passport result in week 3 of the Vuelta. Basically the 3 studies were all from one team, at one GT: no basis for any scientific case: Tut-tut, velocynic.

It seems nobody knows what is 'normal' for a Clean Top Pro in 3rd week of a GT.

tailwindhome

Macaloon wrote:

It seems nobody knows what is 'normal' for a Clean Top Pro in 3rd week of a GT.

Hardly suprising.

Macaloon

TailWindHome wrote:

Macaloon wrote:

It seems nobody knows what is 'normal' for a Clean Top Pro in 3rd week of a GT.

Hardly suprising.

Agreed. What I forgot is that the performance artist formerly known as veloclinic doesn't care about his scientific credentials. Paraphrasing slightly:

JV: "Yo Velo - those papers you cited convinced Detective Stokes, but actual grown-up scientists would laugh at you"
Velo: "Yup. LOL"

According to JV, Horner's blood parameters are unexceptional. For top rider's, the 3rd week of a GT represents a normal load.

Richmond Racer

Umm...not quite how I read it. That almost makes it sound as though JV's giving Horner a clean bill of health, which he's not and which he certainly wouldnt be stupid enough to. He does say 'Many top riders train hard enough that a demodilution would not be expected in a 3wk GT, as it would be "normal" load". Whether or not Horner would fall into that category, who knows.

There's a lot of discussion about the validity or otherwise of the studies that Veloclinic's using as his basis for analysing Horner's values. As someone who is actually a medical professional pointed out in all this discussion, lots of studies have been done using data from amateur/non-elites, which are simply not valid for the use that many put them to as baseline data for analysing elite athletes.

Aaaaaand we come back to the issue some of us here have with all of this trial and error, bumbling process employed over Twitter and internet posts by the likes of Veloclinic, vetooo and Vayer, and even Ross Tucker during the Tour. Its damaging and its misguided.

RichN95.

When journalists use 'science' and 'experts' to create a scandal just remember one name: Andrew Wakefield*. An object lesson in how a scandal can be sold by non-scientific journalists to a non-scientific public on the basis of one alleged expert's opinion.


*To save you looking it up, he was the fraudulent doctor behind the MMR/Autism scandal.

Macaloon

Richmond Racer wrote:

Umm...not quite how I read it. That almost makes it sound as though JV's giving Horner a clean bill of health, which he's not and which he certainly wouldnt be stupid enough to. He does say 'Many top riders train hard enough that a demodilution would not be expected in a 3wk GT, as it would be "normal" load". Whether or not Horner would fall into that category, who knows.

Didn't suggest that, 'cos who knows? But the point you make completely demolishes the case that Veloclinic made against Horner. And VC just said "yup". Apocalyptic cynicism.