Coaching for performance

maryka

Quick question -- do you win the race if you're first over the line or the fastest chip time?

schweiz

For somthing like the Ötztaler it's first over the line. The guys that win it start together in the front group, somewhat similar to how Paula Radcliffe and chums start and race in a city marathon.

BenderRodriguez

schweiz wrote:

So the Laterne Rouge at the TdF is not racing and the Sprinters are not racing in the mountain stages?

Well, I would sat that when you are a pro and you have a job to do, as in helping others, things are slightly different but no, the Lantern Rouge might be in the race , but he will not be racing in the strict sense of the word. Didn't Kimmage once describe being a non-climber in a race being not racing but simply survival?

schweiz wrote:

Anyway, the issue was what is classed as a race not whether one is competitive in that race!

OK, look at things this way. If you do not need a licence issued by one of the national federations and there are no national /international ranking points on offer, and winning will not see you amass points that will eventually see your licence being upgraded, then it probably isn't a race.

To be honest I thought that the question was whether or not some fat punter in a 'sportive', riding along at their own pace was justified in seeing themselves as 'racing'? I would say no. For one thing, in a real race the pace is whatever the strongest rider/s decide it will be, and if you can't hack it then you are out of contention and might as well climb off, unless you enjoy making a spectacle of yourself riding along on your own looking like a complete wally. In comparison in a 'sportive', one has the luxury of being able to set one's own pace.

Sportives can certainly leave you feeling very tired, but for sheer intensity nothing comes close to racing.

BenderRodriguez

schweiz wrote:

For somthing like the Ötztaler it's first over the line. The guys that win it start together in the front group, somewhat similar to how Paula Radcliffe and chums start and race in a city marathon.

To be fair, I would say that in such events the 'guys that win' are racing. Can't say that the same can be said of some fat punter who finishes 3 hours or more later having ridden around at their own pace.

maryka

schweiz wrote:

For somthing like the Ötztaler it's first over the line. The guys that win it start together in the front group, somewhat similar to how Paula Radcliffe and chums start and race in a city marathon.

Except that the front group in a marathon will be lined up across the line and be fewer than 10 by the end. Presumably a group of 1000 in a pen is a bit different... but that's what I mean. Either you win by being first across the line or you win by having the fastest time. The fact that there's both means it's not the same as a road race.

Yes I know, for all intents and purposes it's a race, yadda yadda but anytime there's a chip time, that to me designates it as "sportive with some people racing it" rather than pure race. You don't see chipped times in national champs, the TdF or your local 4th cat crit.

schweiz

But the 'main men/women' are lined up at the front! and there are fewer than 10 competing on the last climb for overall victory. Bernie was getting flamed for saying he was in a race. He was, end of discussion. How sportives are organised and run in the UK is not the same as Gran Fondos et al. on the continent.

Extract from the rules for last years Ötztaler and my translation:

Es gibt insgesamt 4 Startblöcke:
Gruppe 1A – prominente Gäste des Veranstalters, wie z.B. Jan Ullrich (max. 20
Personen).
Gruppe 1B alle Teilnehmer, die sich für die Gruppe 1 qualifizieren:
Alle Teilnehmer, die den Ötztaler Radmarathon in den letzten 3 Jahren in weniger als
8:20 Stunden bei den Herren und weniger als 9:05 Stunden bei den Damen absolviert
haben, sind verpflichtet, aus dem 1. Startblock zu starten. Weitere Kriterien für die
Zulassung in die Gruppe 1B werden am Freitag, 24.08.2012 veröffentlicht und können
ca. einen Monat vor der Veranstaltung beim Veranstalter abgefragt werden.
Gruppe 1C bestimmte Starter aus dem Teilnehmerkontingent des Veranstalters. Die
Zufahrt zu den Startblocks 1A; 1B; 1C ist nur bis 06:30 Uhr möglich.
Gruppe 2: alle Teilnehmer, die nicht aus den Blöcken 1A,1B,1C starten.
Teilnehmer, die auf Podiumsplätze in den einzelnen Klassen sowie in der
Gesamtwertung fahren können (Damen und Herren), MÜSSEN aus der 1. Gruppe
starten. Erreicht ein Teilnehmer aus der Gruppe 2 das Podium in einer Klasse, so erhält
er/ sie nachträglich die Startzeit 06:45 Uhr, die Gesamtzeit wird dann neu berechnet und
dementsprechend in der Rangliste zurückgereiht. Für die Ränge 1-10 Damen und
Herren in der Gesamtwertung zählt die Einfahrts-Reihenfolge, nicht die „gefahrene“ Zeit.
In den Klassen gilt diese Regelung für die Ränge 1 bis 3.



There are a total of four start blocks:

Group 1A – Celebrity guests of the organiser, for example Jan Ullrich (max. 20 people)

Group 1B – All participants that have qualified for group 1.

All participants that have, in the last 3 years, completed the Ötztaler Bike Marathon in less than 8hr 20min for men and 9hr 05min for women are required to start in the first group. Additional criteria for allowing a start in group 1B will be released on 24.08.2012 and can be requested from the organiser approximately 1 month before the event.

Group 1C – Selected participants from the organisation committee. Entry into start blocks 1A, 1B and 1C is only possible before 6.30 a.m.

Group 2 – All participants that do not start in block 1A, 1B and 1C. Participants that are on the podium for the individual classes as well at the overall classification (women and men) MUST have started in the 1st group. If a participant from the second group reaches the podium, they will receive a retrospective start time of 6:45 a.m. and the total time will be re-calculated and the rankings adjusted accordingly. For overall positions 1-10 in both the female and male categories, the arrival position counts and not the ‘ridden’ time. For the individual classes, this applies to positions 1-3.

maryka

I guess as a woman I have no interest in seeing sportives (on the continent or even Ride London here which is the closest thing to thatt in the UK) as races, because when I race something for real, it's a race with only women in it. Being the first women to cross the line because you can wheelsuck men the best is hardly a race for me. If they did women's-only Gran Fondos I suppose I might see it differently. But yes I understand that the 100 riders at the front are treating it like a race, etc. I still don't consider that a pure race though by UCI standards.

schweiz

maryka wrote:

I guess as a woman I have no interest in seeing sportives (on the continent or even Ride London here which is the closest thing to thatt in the UK) as races, because when I race something for real, it's a race with only women in it. Being the first women to cross the line because you can wheelsuck men the best is hardly a race for me. If they did women's-only Gran Fondos I suppose I might see it differently. But yes I understand that the 100 riders at the front are treating it like a race, etc. I still don't consider that a pure race though by UCI standards.

Interesting perspective but here in Switzerland everyone from Elite to Hobby, men and women start together in local 'licenced' races due to the number participating. I'm pretty sure the women think they are still racing.

maryka

schweiz wrote:

maryka wrote:

I guess as a woman I have no interest in seeing sportives (on the continent or even Ride London here which is the closest thing to thatt in the UK) as races, because when I race something for real, it's a race with only women in it. Being the first women to cross the line because you can wheelsuck men the best is hardly a race for me. If they did women's-only Gran Fondos I suppose I might see it differently. But yes I understand that the 100 riders at the front are treating it like a race, etc. I still don't consider that a pure race though by UCI standards.

Interesting perspective but here in Switzerland everyone from Elite to Hobby, men and women start together in local 'licenced' races due to the number participating. I'm pretty sure the women think they are still racing.

I'm sure they do! Frankly if I treated that kind of ride like a race I'd feel like a fraud.

schweiz

maryka wrote:

You don't see chipped times in national champs, the TdF or your local 4th cat crit.

That's because in those races there's probably less than 10 seconds between the first and last rider over the start line.

Being pedantic all times in the TdF are 'chip' times. It's on their chain stay. In a non TT stage, the TdF is always a neutralised rolling start so they all cross the start together.

Some of our bigger local races use the same chip system, but just like in the TdF we all get the same start time even though it's a standing start.

schweiz

BenderRodriguez wrote:

For one thing, in a real race the pace is whatever the strongest rider/s decide it will be, and if you can't hack it then you are out of contention and might as well climb off, unless you enjoy making a spectacle of yourself riding along on your own looking like a complete wally.

So this year in one particular crit there was a 700-800m 6-7% climb about 200m after the start. There were maybe 3 Elites, 4-5 Amateurs, 4-5 Masters and 4-5 Hobby (we don't have Cat 1-4 and can only move up to Elite, amateur and master are the same but after age 30 it is up to the individual what category you ride in) because the elites and a couple of the amateurs blew it open in the first climb, are you saying that half of us should have climbed off after only one lap?

The race was in two groups on the second time up the hill, I was blowing and slipped back to dead last on the climb. When I started the third lap I was a good 200 m behind. The second group had now split and I caught the 3 riders forming the last group during the climb. We rode as a four for a lap and then a guy attacked on the climb on start of the fourth lap and bridged to the second group who were well down the road. Two of us tried, and failed to stay with him the fourth guy was dropped. The next 4 laps the two of us rode together, trying to avoid being lapped, which happened about 5-600 m before the line on what was our penultimate lap (so was in fact our last lap). The guy we dropped at the start of lap 4 came in alone.

I will never hack it with the elites, so if I take your view, I would never race. Nobody who was in that race thought anyone in that race was a 'wally'. I could have thought "I'm 200 m behind, dead last and there's that b@stard hill again - f*** this I'm out" but I rode on beating 3 (1 DNF - mechanical) of the riders who were ahead of me at that point.

BenderRodriguez wrote:

Sportives can certainly leave you feeling very tired, but for sheer intensity nothing comes close to racing.

An alpine gran fondo, for sheer intensity can be up there with a crit! Okay, my average heart rate is 150 rather than 180, my maximum HR is 180 rather than 200 but it's 8-9 hours instead of 45-50 minutes.

I guess Mo Farah isn't racing because his event is not as intense as Usain Bolt's!

maryka

schweiz wrote:

maryka wrote:

You don't see chipped times in national champs, the TdF or your local 4th cat crit.

That's because in those races there's probably less than 10 seconds between the first and last rider over the start line.

Being pedantic all times in the TdF are 'chip' times. It's on their chain stay. In a non TT stage, the TdF is always a neutralised rolling start so they all cross the start together.

Some of our bigger local races use the same chip system, but just like in the TdF we all get the same start time even though it's a standing start.

Being pedantic, there's no "chip time" as in marathoning. The chips are only there to help determine finish order, not total time from the moment the chip crossed the start line to the finish line.

Edit: to give an example of how chip time has nothing to do with real racing, at the recent Ride London, some riders in the front group were supposedly letting others cross the start line ahead of them so that they would be able to claim "fastest time" at the end even if they weren't first across the line. The very fact that riders (and they were racer-types, not sportivers -- only racers were allowed in the front group) had this mentality says to me it's more sportive than race. Nobody in a real race lets anyone else cross the start line in front of them except maybe a teammate!

BenderRodriguez

schweiz wrote:

I will never hack it with the elites, so if I take your view, I would never race.

No, if you want to genuinely race you simply enter a real race commensurate with your ability. There are plenty of racers who can't hack it with the elite men, such as women, juniors, vets, 3rd cats whatever, and there are real races run for all these categories.

schweiz wrote:

Nobody who was in that race thought anyone in that race was a 'wally'. I could have thought "I'm 200 m behind, dead last and there's that b@stard hill again - f*** this I'm out" but I rode on beating 3 (1 DNF - mechanical) of the riders who were ahead of me at that point.

And there lies the rub, as it were. In a real race many would look on someone riding along way behind those getting on with the real racing as being a bit of a 'wally'. Why? Because if you line up on the start line of a real race you are making something of a declaration about your intentions and ability. Many would prefer not to make such a declaration and so choose to pretend to race in something like a sportive instead.

schweiz wrote:

An alpine gran fondo, for sheer intensity can be up there with a crit! Okay, my average heart rate is 150 rather than 180, my maximum HR is 180 rather than 200 but it's 8-9 hours instead of 45-50 minutes.

You might like to check out what the word 'intensity' means. Riding along at an average of 150 Bpm is not 'intense'. Riding a real road race where you are forced to go so hard on the climbs that you start to black out, or have an 'out of body experience' when jumping after that break for the umpteenth time and your heart rate was already at your maximum before you made the jump is intense!

schweiz

You''ve really not read or understood my posts about the opportunities to race here in Switzerland have you? Apart from 'by invitation' events, all races are open to all riders. There are no 'get into racing' cat 4 only races because we don't have a category system in the same way the UK does. I either ride in races with elites or don't race at all.

I started posting in this thread to support Bernie's posts about what constitues a race here in mainland Europe. I said all I have to say. If you don't agree with the way things are done 'over here' then fine. After all the time triallusts and road racers in the UK probably still can't agree on what is a race never mind any other event.

Pross

BenderRodriguez wrote:

OK, look at things this way. If you do not need a licence issued by one of the national federations and there are no national /international ranking points on offer, and winning will not see you amass points that will eventually see your licence being upgraded, then it probably isn't a race.

To be honest I thought that the question was whether or not some fat punter in a 'sportive', riding along at their own pace was justified in seeing themselves as 'racing'? I would say no. For one thing, in a real race the pace is whatever the strongest rider/s decide it will be, and if you can't hack it then you are out of contention and might as well climb off, unless you enjoy making a spectacle of yourself riding along on your own looking like a complete wally. In comparison in a 'sportive', one has the luxury of being able to set one's own pace.

Sportives can certainly leave you feeling very tired, but for sheer intensity nothing comes close to racing.

So we've now gone from sportives not being races to TLI and LVRC races probably not being races (not to mention time trials).

Not sure where you got the idea the question was about a 'fat punter' either as this originated Berni mentioning his placing in a competitive sportive in France. Having seen some of his Strava data from big European cols I'm guessing he isn't some 'fat punter in a sportive' and I doubt many on here could stay with him and finishing in the front group is hardly 'riding at your own pace'.

BenderRodriguez

schweiz wrote:

You''ve really not read or understood my posts about the opportunities to race here in Switzerland have you? Apart from 'by invitation' events, all races are open to all riders. There are no 'get into racing' cat 4 only races because we don't have a category system in the same way the UK does. I either ride in races with elites or don't race at all.

Interesting. I am surprised that there is not more grass-roots racing in Switzerland. In many countries most races are over-subscribed and actually getting a place in a race, whatever the category, is often only a little less difficult than winning it once your entry is accepted!

That said, I have just looked on the Swiss cycling Federation site and there does seem to be category restricted racing in Switzerland, and there certainly seem to be events that exclude elite riders, even if an 'amateur' in Switzerland does seem to cover every over 23 male rider who is not an elite.

http://events.swiss-cycling.ch/sc/fr/Re ... oad&y=2013

Is there no Swiss equivalent of UK's League International or a vets racing scene, which is very big in the UK? No handicap-based road racing?

BenderRodriguez

Pross wrote:

Not sure where you got the idea the question was about a 'fat punter' either as this originated Berni mentioning his placing in a competitive sportive in France. Having seen some of his Strava data from big European cols I'm guessing he isn't some 'fat punter in a sportive' and I doubt many on here could stay with him and finishing in the front group is hardly 'riding at your own pace'.

Which is much what I have already said. That is, in continental 'sportives' those at the front are pretty much racing. That doesn't mean to say that the thousands of 'fat punters' who come in hours later are also racing though.

BenderRodriguez

Pross wrote:

BenderRodriguez wrote:

OK, look at things this way. If you do not need a licence issued by one of the national federations and there are no national /international ranking points on offer, and winning will not see you amass points that will eventually see your licence being upgraded, then it probably isn't a race.

To be honest I thought that the question was whether or not some fat punter in a 'sportive', riding along at their own pace was justified in seeing themselves as 'racing'? I would say no. For one thing, in a real race the pace is whatever the strongest rider/s decide it will be, and if you can't hack it then you are out of contention and might as well climb off, unless you enjoy making a spectacle of yourself riding along on your own looking like a complete wally. In comparison in a 'sportive', one has the luxury of being able to set one's own pace.

Sportives can certainly leave you feeling very tired, but for sheer intensity nothing comes close to racing.

So we've now gone from sportives not being races to TLI and LVRC races probably not being races (not to mention time trials).

I've highlighted the key word for you.

Let's just agree that there are real races that are not UCI point-carrying events. Still doesn't mean that some 'fat punter' rolling around a 'sportive' is racing though.

macroadie

maryka wrote:

macroadie wrote:

It's in Houston and it's about 6 riders. We always have strangers pilling into our group.

Houston Texas?

If so, no wonder the speed is so high. Never ridden as fast over in the UK as I have in North America -- straight wide roads, generally good surfaces, less traffic, fewer junctions makes a massive difference to speed. Not to say that you guys don't ride hard, but there's a world of difference between 28mph in North America and 28mph in England.

True. Less traffic also means less stops/rest. Don't forget the wind will get you either way. Yesterday we started out 25mphr toped 30mphr for a few minutes then u turn the wind was so bad we barely stayed at 24mphr.