Coaching for performance

bernithebiker

madasahattersley wrote:

I know a sportive 'winner' who decided to start doing actual races, and assuming he'd get his 2nd cat effortlessly within a few races he ended up getting dropped by the 4th cats at Hog Hill.

Those 4th cats would get a good spanking from most 3rd cats, who would get a good spanking from a good 2nd cat, who would...... etc etc etc.

If you want to be a racer, get yourself into an actual race, get a good humbling and realise you're not quick enough and spend the rest of your life trying to get quicker.

Sportives are not races

I live in France, and there are 2 types of sportives; ones where you race, and ones where you don't.

For the 'racing' ones, you need to provide a medical certificate. They are timed, placed, and usually there are trophies, small prizes.

The one I mentioned went off fast from the off, and the main peloton fractured a bit at the first decent hill. 4 motorcycle riders cleared the road for us. The front peloton of 80 or so then rode pretty fast and there were numerous attacks / echappees at regular intervals. (We closed down all but 2 of the echappees). One guy asked me if I wanted to make a break for it with him, but at 30k out, I felt it was too far for me. In the last 5km, there was a lot of attacks going on, and it went to a bunch sprint between 20 or so of us.

So, yes, in my view, that's a race. The standard is pretty high in France, especially amongst the 40+ age group (I'm 42), and some of the 50+'s are still very quick.

I have no great interest in 'proper' organised racing - I'd rather keep it simple and fun, but don't knock it because it's not fully UCI sanctioned.

(P.S. As we have 2 x Cat 2, (and sometimes 1 Elite) in our Sunday group ride, I have a good idea what level riders are at, and for me the Top 20 in that race were definitely of Cat 2 standard).

bernithebiker

Markwb79 wrote:

Must have been hilly?

Haha! 1350m+, so a bit hilly, yep! (More than Amsterdam anyway!)

maryka

macroadie wrote:

It's in Houston and it's about 6 riders. We always have strangers pilling into our group.

Houston Texas?

If so, no wonder the speed is so high. Never ridden as fast over in the UK as I have in North America -- straight wide roads, generally good surfaces, less traffic, fewer junctions makes a massive difference to speed. Not to say that you guys don't ride hard, but there's a world of difference between 28mph in North America and 28mph in England.

Pross

As Bernie has explained there are different classes of sportives / gran fondo on the continent. In Italy there are sponsored pro teams racing in the competitive versions! Have a look at this http://www.biciveneto.it/granfondo.html . You'd be less likely to win many of these events than you would to win a Regional A road race. I think some people are blinkered by their impressions / experiences of UK sportives.

frisbee

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

I look forward to reading about you finishing first in the Marmotte next year.

markwb79

frisbee wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

I look forward to reading about you finishing first in the Marmotte next year.

Agreed.

Being the equivalent of a 2nd cat (I race in Holland and Belgium). I think I can tell the difference, and I can say I didn't ride in a 'bubble of delision' when doing this years etape.

Luke - Give it a go next year, get yourself there early and in the front pen. Treat it exactly like you would a race, bet you get 'dropped'...then tell me its not a race. Only then can you comment properly

bernithebiker

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

Pompous and condescending are words that spring to mind.

Clearly you know nothing about the structure of riding and racing in France, so perhaps best not to make your ignorance public?

Good luck with your 'proper' racing in the UK. I'll look out for your name at next year's Etape, where no doubt you'll be smashing the likes of Roux, Absalon and Pouly, because they're not racers.

And I'll stick to my 'racey' sportives, safe in the knowledge that I'm having fun and getting a taste of racing in the simplest way possible.

markwb79

madasahattersley wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

Pompous and condescending are words that spring to mind.

Clearly you know nothing about the structure of riding and racing in France, so perhaps best not to make your ignorance public?

Good luck with your 'proper' racing in the UK. I'll look out for your name at next year's Etape, where no doubt you'll be smashing the likes of Roux, Absalon and Pouly, because they're not racers.

And I'll stick to my 'racey' sportives, safe in the knowledge that I'm having fun and getting a taste of racing in the simplest way possible.

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

haha, the nievity of youth

imposter2.0

Markwb79 wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

Pompous and condescending are words that spring to mind.

Clearly you know nothing about the structure of riding and racing in France, so perhaps best not to make your ignorance public?

Good luck with your 'proper' racing in the UK. I'll look out for your name at next year's Etape, where no doubt you'll be smashing the likes of Roux, Absalon and Pouly, because they're not racers.

And I'll stick to my 'racey' sportives, safe in the knowledge that I'm having fun and getting a taste of racing in the simplest way possible.

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

haha, the nievity of youth

...would have worked better had you not spelt naivety wrong....

Me, I prefer to stick to the UCI definition of racing, which is where I think Luke is coming from.

BigFatBloke

madasahattersley wrote:

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

If you want to prove how fast and powerful you are you could post some power data. We would have to take your word for your weight. Mind you I'm sure people have deliberately mis-calibrated their power meter to show inflated numbers.

imposter2.0

BigFatBloke wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

If you want to prove how fast and powerful you are you could post some power data. We would have to take your word for your weight. Mind you I'm sure people have deliberately mis-calibrated their power meter to show inflated numbers.

Has there ever been a thread where you have NOT tried to turn the discussion onto power meters?

markwb79

Imposter wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Can't believe this conversation is even hapenning. If you want to carry on riding sportives in a little bubble of delusion that you're racing then I wish you the best with that.

Pompous and condescending are words that spring to mind.

Clearly you know nothing about the structure of riding and racing in France, so perhaps best not to make your ignorance public?

Good luck with your 'proper' racing in the UK. I'll look out for your name at next year's Etape, where no doubt you'll be smashing the likes of Roux, Absalon and Pouly, because they're not racers.

And I'll stick to my 'racey' sportives, safe in the knowledge that I'm having fun and getting a taste of racing in the simplest way possible.

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

haha, the nievity of youth

...would have worked better had you not spelt naivety wrong....

Me, I prefer to stick to the UCI definition of racing, which is where I think Luke is coming from.

haha, I was thinking that whilst typing, but didnt get the red line underneath, so left it!

markwb79

Imposter wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

If you want to prove how fast and powerful you are you could post some power data. We would have to take your word for your weight. Mind you I'm sure people have deliberately mis-calibrated their power meter to show inflated numbers.

Has there ever been a thread where you have NOT tried to turn the discussion onto power meters?

I tend to agree, not sure what showing power data would achieve when debating what a 'race' is?

ugo.santalucia

Imposter wrote:

BigFatBloke wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

If you want to prove how fast and powerful you are you could post some power data. We would have to take your word for your weight. Mind you I'm sure people have deliberately mis-calibrated their power meter to show inflated numbers.

Has there ever been a thread where you have NOT tried to turn the discussion onto power meters?

A CycleOps troll?

imposter2.0

ugo.santalucia wrote:

A CycleOps troll?

I see what you did there..

The 'troll' bit is correct, without a doubt...

ric/rstsport

In France (and i presume other mainland European countries) the sportives are akin to races with pros taking part (and racing for the fastest time) and prize money. They're every bit as hard as proper FFC races (i've done both) and they both felt harder than their equivalent level British counterparts. And you get closed roads for them (at least the ones i did).

@berniethebiker, i must have done one near you. Think it was the Ronan Pensec one.

Tom Butcher

maryka wrote:

macroadie wrote:

It's in Houston and it's about 6 riders. We always have strangers pilling into our group.

Houston Texas?

If so, no wonder the speed is so high. Never ridden as fast over in the UK as I have in North America -- straight wide roads, generally good surfaces, less traffic, fewer junctions makes a massive difference to speed. Not to say that you guys don't ride hard, but there's a world of difference between 28mph in North America and 28mph in England.

I was thinking Houston up near Bridge of Weir in Scotland with a name like macroadie ?

You can get some pretty fast chaingangs as there aren't the downtimes and pace fluctuations you get in a (road) race. Don't know if you can view strava links without logging in but ours is here http://www.strava.com/activities/78640819#1587173331 - and that's with several sets of lights and a decent hill in the middle - so 28mph doesn't sound unlikely especially if that's typical riding speed rather than average over the whole thing.

As for the race/not a race thing I'm on the fence - in the context of a cycling forum I tend to interpret it as meaning a road race but I'd agree that sportives are a kind of race - or at least they can be - not everyone in them is racing but some are.

bernithebiker

Imposter wrote:

...would have worked better had you not spelt naivety wrong....

Me, I prefer to stick to the UCI definition of racing, which is where I think Luke is coming from.

I'm sure he speaks better English than you speak Dutch.....?

And I'll stick the dictionary definition of race which is;

Noun
A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.

Mccaria

Berni,

On the more race orientated sportives in France how do they sort out the competitive element ? Is it a mass start or does everyone get an individual start time and then are there prizes for first past the post and/or is it based on iindividual time. I know in the Etape and Maratona it is essentially first to finish that wins the "race" element, which practically means only the guys in the first pen, but of course everyone also gets there own time based on when you go over the start and finish mat.

bernithebiker

Mccaria wrote:

Berni,

On the more race orientated sportives in France how do they sort out the competitive element ? Is it a mass start or does everyone get an individual start time and then are there prizes for first past the post and/or is it based on iindividual time. I know in the Etape and Maratona it is essentially first to finish that wins the "race" element, which practically means only the guys in the first pen, but of course everyone also gets there own time based on when you go over the start and finish mat.

The 'race' I mentioned had a mass start - it was important to get there early and be fairly near the front. Then it's first past the line with prizes for the 1st in each age group. Your time and position are listed on the website's results page. Noone stopped to pee or drink! It was highly competitive. And noone was dressed in a monkey costume.....

Other rides I do may be similar but NOT races, as not timed, less than 50 riders, and slower pace, although even so, the last 5km usually turn into a 'mini-race'.

For really big rides like the Etape, you obviously have to be in the first pen to stand a chance of winning. (1000 riders). All the ex-pros, (Absalon, etc.) and the Cat 1's etc. and those that did a fast time previously will be in the 1st 1000. This lot will be racing flat out to try to win, or place as highly as possible. I had a 604 start number but had to forgo it to start with my mate back at 11000 or so.

okgo

BigFatBloke wrote:

madasahattersley wrote:

Fair enough, if that's the impression you get I can't change that.

If you want to prove how fast and powerful you are you could post some power data. We would have to take your word for your weight. Mind you I'm sure people have deliberately mis-calibrated their power meter to show inflated numbers.

He's a national champ isn't he? That not enough?

And got to agree with him, yes the Etape may be a tough event if you want to stick with Pouly (hasn't he tested positive before?) but they're not races are they.

imposter2.0

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm sure he speaks better English than you speak Dutch.....?

Quite possibly, since I speak no Dutch whatsoever. Not sure what that has to do with spelling the word wrong though...

bernithebiker

Imposter wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm sure he speaks better English than you speak Dutch.....?

Quite possibly, since I speak no Dutch whatsoever. Not sure what that has to do with spelling the word wrong though...

Because his level of English is already quite impressive, so I think we can cut him some lack if there's a misspell?!

BenderRodriguez

I think that the racing / not racing distinction is fairly easy to make. Basically, if you consider yourself to have lost as soon as you lose contact with the front group, you are racing. If the fact that lots of other riders are 'up the road' doesn't really bother you, and you are happy to continue at your own pace for the 'challenge' or whatever, then you are not racing.

schweiz

I hold a Swiss Cycling 'Masters' licence. I ride crits, I ride TT's, I ride cross country MTB races (well I rode one last week and got spanked, but it was good fun and although dead last I 'beat' the DNF!). Let's call them licenced races.

I also ride Gran Fondos/Radmarathons/Sportives (let's call them mass start races) across mainland Europe.

To me and to the others riding, they are all races.

In the mass start events, the top riders go off at the front. They are racing, They are racing to win. It is a race. No ifs, no buts, it's a race. Just the same as the big city running marathons are still races for the elite/top amateur athletes.

For licenced racing, the Swiss system has Elite, Amateur and Masters and Hobby categories. In local (non invitation) races we all race together. I get my ass whipped. In crits I'm on the limit just to try and hang on to a group, not the lead group, just a group, the last main group before I end up one of two or 3 riders that will get lapped. There's the occasional long road race (100 km+) which is apart from there being no feed stations where you have to stop if you want to fill your bidon etc. are not too different to mass start races.

In the mass start races, it's all chip timed and personally, I ride for my own personal satisfaction and goals. I'm not racing the guys at the front, I'm not even racing the guys around me or if I am in my head to get to the top of a climb, they may not be racing me. However, the event I'm in is still a race.

I train for licenced races, I train for mass start races. They are different events that demand different things from you both physically and mentally. I don't use one for the other in terms of training.

Here's a video from the Ötztaler Radmarathon that took place a couple of weeks ago. It's a mass start race. I rode it in 2012 in a time of 9hr 51mins. The winner in 2012 did it in 7 hours. Watch the video linked below. Most of it is in German but the interview with the Italian winner of the event is in English. After watching it, tell me it's not a race!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ls5ZNQqDMU

I appreciate that the UK is different and much of that is caused by British Cycling who want to avoid the extra regulation that a 'race' brings so they go to great efforts to say that sportives are not races. Luckily on the mainland we don't have to deal with that!

schweiz

BenderRodriguez wrote:

I think that the racing / not racing distinction is fairly easy to make. Basically, if you consider yourself to have lost as soon as you lose contact with the front group, you are racing. If the fact that lots of other riders are 'up the road' doesn't really bother you, and you are happy to continue at your own pace for the 'challenge' or whatever, then you are not racing.

In the mountain bike race I did last week, a proper race (in 'UK' terms), part of a series and for which I signed on with my licence. I'm a cr@p mountain biker. I ride my mountain bike a handful of times a year and when I do, wine and beer are more likely to be the drinks involved as opposed to high5 and recovery shakes. I was dead last all the race, I tried to catch up with others dropping off the group but failed each time the race went into the forest and I had to ride technical sections and I couldn't just crank the pedals as hard as possible! I wasn't bothered I was last. I had a good laugh, my club mates supported me knowing that I'm a pure roadie and were happy that I'd had a go and come out relatively unscathed. Supporters from other clubs cheered me through each lap and I finished with my arms in the air (for comedy effect). As soon as I finished, I returned my number to race control and cycled to the beer tent to spend my start number deposit. But because, I didn't get upset about losing contact and didn't give up after the first lap when it was obvious what the only outcome would be, I mustn't have been racing!

imposter2.0

schweiz wrote:

But because, I didn't get upset about losing contact and didn't give up after the first lap when it was obvious what the only outcome would be, I mustn't have been racing!

But I don't think anyone on this forum (ie the training section of the road forum) is talking about racing in terms of MTB.

schweiz

Imposter wrote:

schweiz wrote:

But because, I didn't get upset about losing contact and didn't give up after the first lap when it was obvious what the only outcome would be, I mustn't have been racing!

But I don't think anyone on this forum (ie the training section of the road forum) is talking about racing in terms of MTB.

I think this thread has moved on a long way from road training to what does, or does not, constitute a race. Would it really have made any differene to the fact I was in a race had the MTB race been a crit? Unless any timed event involving a MTB is also not a race?

BenderRodriguez

Perhaps it is largely a matter of semantics, but I do not think that because you have you name down on the start list for something that can be thought of as being a 'race', this means that you, personally, are by definition 'racing'. For me to be 'racing' one has to be taking a significant role in what happens at the front end of the event, are striving to win and have a realistic chance of doing so.

OK, so you can dress up the fact that you are not actually contributing to what is happening up front by saying something like 'I am racing against my friends', or 'I am racing against myself' or whatever. However, a more accurate description would be 'I am not racing, just making up the numbers'.

schweiz

So the Laterne Rouge at the TdF is not racing and the Sprinters are not racing in the mountain stages?

Anyway, the issue was what is classed as a race not whether one is competitive in that race!