Rotor Power or Garmin Vector.. Opinions Please

mattclinton

I rode the Rotor Power for the first time at the weekend - and it seemed to work pretty well on my initial hour-long ride. I must admit that left/right balance is over-rated though!

Using it on the rollers against a Powertap it appeared to track pretty much bang on - though I've not done a proper back to back test yet.

The crank is very stiff indeed, though deciding between Vectors and Rotors you have to decide which battery pod you would like to live with! Having said that, when I've ridden Vectors you don't notice the pod at all.

ncr

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Good post, thanks. Think you've been a smidge harsh on p2max though.

Thanks. Re P2M, in what way?

Sorry missed this. Purely as I think there is enough reports coming back now re the firmware update for us to have confidence the tempreture drift is resolved. Given Quarq's new pricing I suspect we'll quickly see these guys as established players.

Ok, no probs, like I wrote, it's my opinion, even so I dont think that's all that different to what I wrote about P2M:

More recently, data quality improvements have been made with an update to the power meter's firmware which provides better compensation for temperature induced torque zero drift. It's not clear to me yet how well this operates over all models under all conditions, so the jury is still out on this.
...
With another year or so to see how they perform, and with some more rigourous examination of the data quality from these units and a greater established user base, I can see Power2Max eventually moving into the Established Models category.

and what I said about those in new models list:

These newer offerings show promise but need more time to prove themselves before moving into one of the other categories. I applied the same personal categorisation to Quarqs when they first arrived on the scene.

Keep in mind that it's more than just power meter performance that I am considering here. Long term commercial viability, sales/service/support etc are all factors, and that takes a few years to demonstrate and/or big name backing. Just ask any former ergomo user.

From a user perspective, one of our coaches is using a P2M, so we'll have some good first hand info as well.

How many torque readings are taken by the Garmin Vector PM around the pedalling circle.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Garmin have not released those specs.

ncr

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Garmin have not released those specs.

Why is it called a vector PM ?

mattclinton

ncr wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Garmin have not released those specs.

Why is it called a vector PM ?

Because they had to name it something! :roll:

RChung

ncr wrote:

How many torque readings are taken by the Garmin Vector PM around the pedalling circle.

Ray Maker asked Vector that question and got the answer here.

stueys

After initially reacting with horror on seeing the Vector pricing I'm now thinking this is probably going to be the best option for me, much as it irritates as I hate getting fleeced. Rationale for me is I've got two bikes with different BB types that I regularly use (one dry bike, one winer/turbo/occasional commute bike) and different wheel sets.

I know I can swap a P2M between the bikes but with different bb types it's going to be a bit of a faff. Multiple powertaps (an option now with the revised pricing) doesn't really appeal. Pedals on the other hand will be a five minute job. If the thing was £1k I would have ordered by now. Other option is to give it 6 months for the inevitable price drop.

Anythign wrong in my thinking?

slowbike

How about the stages power meter? One arm of the crank replaced - and supposedly 600 for a 105 arm. ?
Brings it in line with the p2m offerings, but perhaps a bit more flexible if you have several bikes runni g the same cranks

amaferanga

Slowbike wrote:

How about the stages power meter? One arm of the crank replaced - and supposedly 600 for a 105 arm. ?
Brings it in line with the p2m offerings, but perhaps a bit more flexible if you have several bikes runni g the same cranks

It's not comparable to the P2M though in terms of the integrity of the data it provides (unless your L/R balance is 50/50 all of the time). I'm not sure how much faith to put in the L/R balance I get from my P2M, but assuming it's reliable then my L/R balance varies by up to 6% depending on fatigue, cadence, power output, etc.

amaferanga

Stueys wrote:

After initially reacting with horror on seeing the Vector pricing I'm now thinking this is probably going to be the best option for me, much as it irritates as I hate getting fleeced. Rationale for me is I've got two bikes with different BB types that I regularly use (one dry bike, one winer/turbo/occasional commute bike) and different wheel sets.

I know I can swap a P2M between the bikes but with different bb types it's going to be a bit of a faff. Multiple powertaps (an option now with the revised pricing) doesn't really appeal. Pedals on the other hand will be a five minute job. If the thing was £1k I would have ordered by now. Other option is to give it 6 months for the inevitable price drop.

Anythign wrong in my thinking?

Why not just change BB type so it's the same on both bikes?

hatone

amaferanga wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

How about the stages power meter? One arm of the crank replaced - and supposedly 600 for a 105 arm. ?
Brings it in line with the p2m offerings, but perhaps a bit more flexible if you have several bikes runni g the same cranks

It's not comparable to the P2M though in terms of the integrity of the data it provides (unless your L/R balance is 50/50 all of the time). I'm not sure how much faith to put in the L/R balance I get from my P2M, but assuming it's reliable then my L/R balance varies by up to 6% depending on fatigue, cadence, power output, etc.

But for most people having Stages power will be sufficient and provide good feedback of your power readings, whilst at the same time trying to learn various and often complex terminologies of how to read power data.

L&R balance is hardly high on the list of priorities for most, at amateur level.

Alex_Simmons/RST

hatone wrote:

L&R balance is hardly high on the list of priorities for most, at amateur level.

It's not that left-right balance is high on the list of priorities, it's realising it's a variable that a one-sided power meter cannot account for and hence accuracy of the data is compromised by the assumption that it's a constant.

The value judgement then becomes how much such an unknown and variable error matters for the purpose you intend to use the power meter for. If your use of the data is not that demanding, then it's probably no big deal. But some applications of a power meter require better quality data.

stueys

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

hatone wrote:

L&R balance is hardly high on the list of priorities for most, at amateur level.

It's not that left-right balance is high on the list of priorities, it's realising it's a variable that a one-sided power meter cannot account for and hence accuracy of the data is compromised by the assumption that it's a constant.

The value judgement then becomes how much such an unknown and variable error matters for the purpose you intend to use the power meter for. If your use of the data is not that demanding, then it's probably no big deal. But some applications of a power meter require better quality data.

That's pretty much where I am on Stages to be honest, it adds another variable. Interesting comment on aligning the BB types, I'm didn't think it was really an option (so I went Cervelo BBright on one bike for example). I'll have a chat with my friendly LBS to check.

hatone

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

hatone wrote:

L&R balance is hardly high on the list of priorities for most, at amateur level.

It's not that left-right balance is high on the list of priorities, it's realising it's a variable that a one-sided power meter cannot account for and hence accuracy of the data is compromised by the assumption that it's a constant.

The value judgement then becomes how much such an unknown and variable error matters for the purpose you intend to use the power meter for. If your use of the data is not that demanding, then it's probably no big deal. But some applications of a power meter require better quality data.

Interesting thread here about L&R balance power meters - there simply isn't one on the market at present that offers a true and accurate L&R reading : http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowt ... a_P3573507

Even SRM, regarded as the 'gold standard', still haven't yet ventured into offering L&R power and is used by practically 3/4 of the pro peloton, who I'd imagine would be more concerned about their L&R readings in race or training environment than us lot.

schlepcycling

amaferanga wrote:

Stueys wrote:

After initially reacting with horror on seeing the Vector pricing I'm now thinking this is probably going to be the best option for me, much as it irritates as I hate getting fleeced. Rationale for me is I've got two bikes with different BB types that I regularly use (one dry bike, one winer/turbo/occasional commute bike) and different wheel sets.

I know I can swap a P2M between the bikes but with different bb types it's going to be a bit of a faff. Multiple powertaps (an option now with the revised pricing) doesn't really appeal. Pedals on the other hand will be a five minute job. If the thing was £1k I would have ordered by now. Other option is to give it 6 months for the inevitable price drop.

Anythign wrong in my thinking?

Why not just change BB type so it's the same on both bikes?

Or if your BB's are different types, Rotor (and others) do a range of BB adapters that will allow you to fit your chainset to bikes with different BB types.

napoleond

I am, in fact, out. Going to wait another couple if years. Going to get a track bike instead.

stueys

schlepcycling wrote:

Or if your BB's are different types, Rotor (and others) do a range of BB adapters that will allow you to fit your chainset to bikes with different BB types.

Didn't know that at all. Thanks, off to do some more research.

bahzob

Since you are posting on the BikeRadar forum I presume you have seen this article
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12935644&start=60

It includes the following which pretty much agrees with my pov I think?


"Even with the addition of left/right balance, the data presented by the current production Vector barely scratches the surface of what's possible with the hardware. As the name suggests, Garmin's new power meter doesn't just measure a scalar value of your pedalling forces – it also knows the direction in which those forces are applied.

It's not just a product, it's a platform," said Foy. "This is 1.0, and everything we've done on this product has not limited us from additional data opportunities in the future. Because we are at this man-machine interface, because we are at that first point of contact, we see unique things on the bike. We see how you're applying force [and] where in the pedal stroke."

The implications are tremendous, and physiologists, coaches, scientists, biomechanists, and fitters are likely to have a field day in terms of cooking up new applications for the recorded data.

For example, how much energy is wasted exerting a radial force on the cranks instead of a more purely tangential one? How does varus/valgus foot position affect power output in real time? Is there anything about your pedal stroke – other than an obvious reduction in power – that's indicative of fatigue?

The possibilities are immense, and are probably more limited by how quickly the company can develop software to visualize and calculate the desired figures – both in real time on a Garmin Edge display, for example, or on a laptop screen for post-ride analysis. Foy said the system's four-sided sensor array can even detect where on a pedal body a rider is applying power.

"Watts will always be interesting to people who want a power-based training program, but we can start to look at things like fatigue, fit, and efficiency; we can start to show you things on a head unit for real-time and post-ride analysis; we can dial things up a whole other level of interest … in something that is force based."

Garmin is only just scratching the surface of what's possible with the new vector power meter pedals. the challenge at this point is prioritizing what comes first and figuring out the best way to present the extracted data."

RChung

hatone wrote:

Interesting thread here about L&R balance power meters - there simply isn't one on the market at present that offers a true and accurate L&R reading : http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowt ... a_P3573507

Ouch. That's a tremendously dispiriting thread, painful to read. It's also two years old.

timujink

DC Rainmaker will be reviewing the Rotor Power meter towards the end of sept... so end of Nov we will get a write up... new firmware update also... #eagerbeaver

mattclinton

I might get some Vectors fitted to the Rotor Power cranks soon, just to see how the left/right balances tally up. Best ride them both with the Powertap to make sure!

FransJacques

the funny thing about stages is for shimano anyway, all the left side crank arms are interchangeable with Hollowtech II. So if I rode DA 9000 but was a tight-wad or unsure about Stages the lease effort I could make would be to fit the 105 crank arm.

I bet that fact is not lost on Stages' pricing model. To me the 9000 is underpriced and the 105 is defo over-priced.

colinsmith123

Has anyone bought the Garmin Vector? Or know anyone who has?

Are Team Garmin using the Vectors?