Rotor Power or Garmin Vector.. Opinions Please

schlepcycling

meesterbond wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

As the risk of turning this thread into a P2M love in, it's a +1 from me, had one since April and it has performed flawlessly, I even swap it between bikes and have got that process down to about 5 minutes.

Running even more of a risk of this thread turning into a P2M appreciation society can I ask anyone who's bought one how easy it was to install and set-up. I've just bought the 3D+ compact spider which I'll be fitting my cranks and rings onto but was curious whether there's a knack to fitting everything or anything to look out for?

I've also got two bikes which the 3D+ will fit (with a change of BB on one) so very interested to hear that it's easy to swap over.

I found it very easy to set up initially and swapping it between bikes is really quick and easy using the comprehensive instructions that are included. Try this review http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/01/power2max-power-meter-in-depth-review.html which includes both set up and installation instructions way better than anything I could give you.

timujink

P2M lovers..... keep the love coming.. this is why this Forum is awesome.. at least with the masses, it can give some direction...

so unless the Garmin folk drop the prices to around £700 its a no go... I will now look into P2M.. already emailed them with regards knocking of VAT as im GIB and dont pay any :-)

timujink

Im just gutted Ill have to give up my Super Record Ti/ Carbon Crank :-(

meesterbond

I'm going to have to do the same if I want to use it on both bikes... the Carbon Campag cranksets are just so pretty though and the Rotor ones are just so functional.

>Should have checked DC Rainmaker first... excellent article as ever.

timujink

meesterbond wrote:

I'm going to have to do the same if I want to use it on both bikes... the Carbon Campag cranksets are just so pretty though and the Rotor ones are just so functional.

>Should have checked DC Rainmaker first... excellent article as ever.

Yeh Ive just asked for prices of the 3D+ and Qrings... to note, for qrings you would need the 130BCD P2M http://www.power2max.de/techdetails_kompatibilitaet.php

I might sell my SR crank, sure someone will buy it....

meesterbond

You can used the fixed position Q Rings with 110mm cranks which I'm going to have to do. Fortunately my Q-Rings are in position 3 anyway.

dw300

So I can't fit a P2M to my SRAM Red cranks, right?

schlepcycling

dw300 wrote:

So I can't fit a P2M to my SRAM Red cranks, right?

No, the cranks need to have a removable spider.

FatTed

timujink wrote:

FatTed wrote:

TmuJink
I have the Quarq SRAM 22 power meter, works a charm with Campag 11 speed
http://www.quarq.com/sram-red-22-power-meter

Its around the £2k mark aswell... a fe £££ more and you get SRM, the gold standrard.... Im looking for the £1k mark models... many on here have sounded out the power2max and to be honest, at around £660 (todays EURGBP) for the Rotor compatible unit... thats including shipping...

Unless you have deep pockets and or cycling at that level that requires ultimate precision (if you are then surely a team would supply you...) around £1k total setup is reasonable.. spend the rest of the money on a new set of wheels ;-)

For me the SRM was more than twice the price of the Quarq SRAM RED 22, I thought of power2max but not very sure of back up service and its not that cheap over here.

Mccaria

Had been waiting for the Vector to come out, but it took so long that by the time it was actually in production I had moved my bikes away from Look pedals and back to Shimano. Saw the new SRMs at the Etape exhibition in Annecy and ended up blowing the pension fund on a 9000 SRM which arrived yesterday. It's a lovely looking piece of kit.

bahzob

twotyred wrote:

You've mentioned pedalling technique a couple of times now but I think we've got away with it as Bahzob hasn't turned up yet. Maybe if we all step quietly away from the thread he won't notice.

Seriously this topic has been done to death. Have a look here http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12916675.

Lol, sorry. This topic hasn't been done to death. The main issue is that until now most folks simply havn't had access to tools that provide the data needed to analyse and improve the way you pedal.

Even with the introduction of the Vector this will still be the case. It will need a few iterations and very likely the next model of head unit until this happens.

Still now the Vector is shipping the clock has started ticking on when this will become available. Once it does I expect folks here to be posting about how this has helped them improve and coaches will be using this information to help their clients ride better.

I'd guess around 3 years from now the notion that you can't get improve your pedal technique(and hence power) using poweremeter data will be as old fashioned as the notion that powermeters are no better than HR monitors. (I have been posting here long enough to remember when this was the majority view).

Fundamental reason is straightforward. Until now powermeters have simply told you what power you produce.

Future powermeters will do more and show exactly HOW you produce power.

(Amongst other things I'll predict now that, comparing elite riders to the average, that this will show significant differences, similar to those described here http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean.)

Time will tell.

timujink

bahzob wrote:

twotyred wrote:

You've mentioned pedalling technique a couple of times now but I think we've got away with it as Bahzob hasn't turned up yet. Maybe if we all step quietly away from the thread he won't notice.

Seriously this topic has been done to death. Have a look here http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40011&t=12916675.

Lol, sorry. This topic hasn't been done to death. The main issue is that until now most folks simply havn't had access to tools that provide the data needed to analyse and improve the way you pedal.

Even with the introduction of the Vector this will still be the case. It will need a few iterations and very likely the next model of head unit until this happens.

Still now the Vector is shipping the clock has started ticking on when this will become available. Once it does I expect folks here to be posting about how this has helped them improve and coaches will be using this information to help their clients ride better.

I'd guess around 3 years from now the notion that you can't get improve your pedal technique(and hence power) using poweremeter data will be as old fashioned as the notion that powermeters are no better than HR monitors. (I have been posting here long enough to remember when this was the majority view).

Fundamental reason is straightforward. Until now powermeters have simply told you what power you produce.

Future powermeters will do more and show exactly HOW you produce power.

(Amongst other things I'll predict now that, comparing elite riders to the average, that this will show significant differences, similar to those described here http://wattbike.com/uk/guide/cycling_tests/pedalling_technique_test/what_the_polar_view_shapes_mean.)

Time will tell.

The Rotor also has the pedal smoothness function and if you have the Osync head unit you can even track it whilst you are out and about... Other than that, set it up at home and perfect your stroke.... Not shire how it work with the qrings...

frisbee

Measuring pedalling technique is a gimmick, cycle more and your pedalling technique will improve. Climb a steep hill and you'll lift the front wheel, a few months and a few hundred more miles under your wheels and the next time you ride that hill you'll be a lot smoother.

Measuring left and right pedal force increases cost and complexity for very little benefit.

At some point someone will introduce a standard groupset crankset with power built in, it'll remain niche until that happens.

timujink

frisbee wrote:

Measuring pedalling technique is a gimmick, cycle more and your pedalling technique will improve. Climb a steep hill and you'll lift the front wheel, a few months and a few hundred more miles under your wheels and the next time you ride that hill you'll be a lot smoother.

Measuring left and right pedal force increases cost and complexity for very little benefit.

At some point someone will introduce a standard groupset crankset with power built in, it'll remain niche until that happens.

Disagree. Next time you hit the hill after few hundred miles you'll just be stronger, albeit if you keep your same technique. Gimmick or not, a smooth technique where you push/pull efficiently will improve the your cycling...

frisbee

timujink wrote:

frisbee wrote:

Measuring pedalling technique is a gimmick, cycle more and your pedalling technique will improve. Climb a steep hill and you'll lift the front wheel, a few months and a few hundred more miles under your wheels and the next time you ride that hill you'll be a lot smoother.

Measuring left and right pedal force increases cost and complexity for very little benefit.

At some point someone will introduce a standard groupset crankset with power built in, it'll remain niche until that happens.

Disagree. Next time you hit the hill after few hundred miles you'll just be stronger, albeit if you keep your same technique. Gimmick or not, a smooth technique where you push/pull efficiently will improve the your cycling...

Nope, if you are stronger then the front will lift even more. More training will improve your cycling, a really bad technique may limit your ability to train but I don't think feedback consisting solely of your torque distribution around the pedalling stroke will be much help.

rozzer32

Anyone got any links to published data about left/right pedal balance or pedal technique?

mattclinton

frisbee wrote:

Measuring pedalling technique is a gimmick, cycle more and your pedalling technique will improve. Climb a steep hill and you'll lift the front wheel, a few months and a few hundred more miles under your wheels and the next time you ride that hill you'll be a lot smoother.

Sounds to me like you have a bad technique rather than bad pedaling style if you're lifting in the front end. That's purely down to weight distribution!

Pedaling technique is a big benefactor in putting power down, previous research has shown that actually people who are smooth in their technique but put more force on the downstroke tend to be more powerful. Garmin are funding several research projects into how left/right balance can be utilized into training methods.

The biggest benefit of left/right balance is for those coming back from injury with a noticeably weaker leg. They can then use this to help work on the technique or power of this one leg, to hopefully bring them back to a 50/50 balance. It should be noted than no-one really should have a 50/50 balance, you'll always have one leg slightly stronger than the other.

rozzer32

mattclinton wrote:

frisbee wrote:

Measuring pedalling technique is a gimmick, cycle more and your pedalling technique will improve. Climb a steep hill and you'll lift the front wheel, a few months and a few hundred more miles under your wheels and the next time you ride that hill you'll be a lot smoother.

Sounds to me like you have a bad technique rather than bad pedaling style if you're lifting in the front end. That's purely down to weight distribution!

Pedaling technique is a big benefactor in putting power down, previous research has shown that actually people who are smooth in their technique but put more force on the downstroke tend to be more powerful. Garmin are funding several research projects into how left/right balance can be utilized into training methods.

The biggest benefit of left/right balance is for those coming back from injury with a noticeably weaker leg. They can then use this to help work on the technique or power of this one leg, to hopefully bring them back to a 50/50 balance. It should be noted than no-one really should have a 50/50 balance, you'll always have one leg slightly stronger than the other.

Any links to this research?

Who would have thought that if you put more force in the down stroke you produce more power. :roll:

Alex_Simmons/RST

mattclinton wrote:

The biggest benefit of left/right balance is for those coming back from injury with a noticeably weaker leg. They can then use this to help work on the technique or power of this one leg, to hopefully bring them back to a 50/50 balance. It should be noted than no-one really should have a 50/50 balance, you'll always have one leg slightly stronger than the other.

I did check my left-right power balance (well a pretty good proxy given technology at the time) but it made not a lick of difference to how I approached my training when returning from a serious leg injury.

timujink

rozzer32 wrote:

Any links to this research?

Who would have thought that if you put more force in the down stroke you produce more power. :roll:

Rozzer32 it is obvious that more force you put down the more power you have... However, consider you are applying a technique of full force on the pedal with a bad pedal stroke, i.e. all push no pull then you will fatigue pretty quickly...

this thread has changed... im still no nearer deciding on my power meter, my lbs going to try and get me a rotor to test...

mattclinton

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

mattclinton wrote:

The biggest benefit of left/right balance is for those coming back from injury with a noticeably weaker leg. They can then use this to help work on the technique or power of this one leg, to hopefully bring them back to a 50/50 balance. It should be noted than no-one really should have a 50/50 balance, you'll always have one leg slightly stronger than the other.

I did check my left-right power balance (well a pretty good proxy given technology at the time) but it made not a lick of difference to how I approached my training when returning from a serious leg injury.

You're the coach, not me! Personally I'd say left/right balance is a waste of time too. Perhaps it's beneficial to doing left/right drills, but a normal power meter will tell you what you're putting out from each leg if you're only clipped in with one foot anyway!

rozzer32 - I don't have the link to this research, but it implied that the guys who were smashing the pedals were more powerful than those who had a smooth pedaling action.

PhunkyPhil

I like the DC Rainmaker reviews of power meters as he put multiple devices in use at the same time and actually ueses them for a number of weeks before reviewing.

His initial impression of the Vector is it looks quite good but the left right balance stuff isn't really needed. he has also refused to review the Rotor power meter as he knows it is not going to get a favorable review because there are problems with it and he is going to wait and see if they address these issues first.

Therefore I wouldn't get a rotor power meter.

Also worth checking your cranks will fit a Vector as some of the fatter ones are to wide.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Reports from some early adopters are emerging about sensitivity (of accuracy) to the Vectors being properly torqued to the crank, and a requirement for a torque wrench. Else it seems a promising start, but it's very early days and it's not until lots of meters are out there in the wild that we can really get a good sense of what issues there may or may not be.

In the meantime, I did a post summarising all the power meter options (there are about 20 power meter brands) and issues to consider when choosing:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/ ... meter.html

stueys

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Reports from some early adopters are emerging about sensitivity (of accuracy) to the Vectors being properly torqued to the crank, and a requirement for a torque wrench. Else it seems a promising start, but it's very early days and it's not until lots of meters are out there in the wild that we can really get a good sense of what issues there may or may not be.

In the meantime, I did a post summarising all the power meter options (there are about 20 power meter brands) and issues to consider when choosing:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/ ... meter.html

Good post, thanks. Think you've been a smidge harsh on p2max though.

FatTed

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Reports from some early adopters are emerging about sensitivity (of accuracy) to the Vectors being properly torqued to the crank, and a requirement for a torque wrench. Else it seems a promising start, but it's very early days and it's not until lots of meters are out there in the wild that we can really get a good sense of what issues there may or may not be.

In the meantime, I did a post summarising all the power meter options (there are about 20 power meter brands) and issues to consider when choosing:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/ ... meter.html

Thanks, good info. For me the number one requirement (among your established models) was a good backup/warranty service, so I bought a Quarq SRAM 22. SRM was more than twice the price!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Stueys wrote:

Good post, thanks. Think you've been a smidge harsh on p2max though.

Thanks. Re P2M, in what way?

Alex_Simmons/RST

FatTed wrote:

Thanks, good info. For me the number one requirement (among your established models) was a good backup/warranty service, so I bought a Quarq SRAM 22. SRM was more than twice the price!

Yes, and it's interesting how everone has different priorities on the issues in play.

Also the price differential varys depending on where in the world you are (and buying from), so it's hard to do a reasonable price comparison. e.g. SRM is not double the price here, for example. Hard to compare to your model directly as SRM don't have a SRAM 22 model, but here the difference from that (or an ELSA) to say the new SRM DA 9000 is 1.5 times.

FatTed

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

FatTed wrote:

Thanks, good info. For me the number one requirement (among your established models) was a good backup/warranty service, so I bought a Quarq SRAM 22. SRM was more than twice the price!

Yes, and it's interesting how everone has different priorities on the issues in play.

Also the price differential varys depending on where in the world you are (and buying from), so it's hard to do a reasonable price comparison. e.g. SRM is not double the price here, for example. Hard to compare to your model directly as SRM don't have a SRAM 22 model, but here the difference from that (or an ELSA) to say the new SRM DA 9000 is 1.5 times.

The Campagnolo SRM in New Zealand is $5,500 + GST

stueys

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Good post, thanks. Think you've been a smidge harsh on p2max though.

Thanks. Re P2M, in what way?

Sorry missed this. Purely as I think there is enough reports coming back now re the firmware update for us to have confidence the tempreture drift is resolved. Given Quarq's new pricing I suspect we'll quickly see these guys as established players.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Stueys wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Stueys wrote:

Good post, thanks. Think you've been a smidge harsh on p2max though.

Thanks. Re P2M, in what way?

Sorry missed this. Purely as I think there is enough reports coming back now re the firmware update for us to have confidence the tempreture drift is resolved. Given Quarq's new pricing I suspect we'll quickly see these guys as established players.

Ok, no probs, like I wrote, it's my opinion, even so I dont think that's all that different to what I wrote about P2M:

More recently, data quality improvements have been made with an update to the power meter's firmware which provides better compensation for temperature induced torque zero drift. It's not clear to me yet how well this operates over all models under all conditions, so the jury is still out on this.
...
With another year or so to see how they perform, and with some more rigourous examination of the data quality from these units and a greater established user base, I can see Power2Max eventually moving into the Established Models category.

and what I said about those in new models list:

These newer offerings show promise but need more time to prove themselves before moving into one of the other categories. I applied the same personal categorisation to Quarqs when they first arrived on the scene.

Keep in mind that it's more than just power meter performance that I am considering here. Long term commercial viability, sales/service/support etc are all factors, and that takes a few years to demonstrate and/or big name backing. Just ask any former ergomo user.

From a user perspective, one of our coaches is using a P2M, so we'll have some good first hand info as well.