Sky are dopers - Oh no they're not
Comments
-
Does anyone recall which DS said last year that he didn't believe Sky's scientific approach was in the spirit of the Tour, and he would be sticking to his traditional preparation?aztecboy0
-
No tail wind when the got out of the tree line and going up you have a wall of trees both sides . The tailwind was useful before they hit the climb once on the climb it was of no major benefit . Froomes times up the other climbs also show him beating times of known doped riders except Armstrong . It looks mighty suspicious and you have to be very blinded not to have suspicions. Personally I say let them dope . They are not taking steriods so no major health issues if done correctly and we can stop having this debate and we can get back all our past results as well .
You cannot stop doping . Simple as that. Whatever it is Sky are taking I want some .
MONT VENTOUX times .
1. Lance Armstrong ______ USA | 48:33 | 2002 doped
-2. Chris Froome _________ GBR | 48:35 | 2013 ?
-3. Andy Schleck _________ LUX | 48.57 | 2009 ?
-4. Alberto Contador _____ ESP | 48:57 | 2009 doped
-5. Lance Armstrong ______ USA | 49:00 | 2009 doped
-6. Marco Pantani ________ ITA | 49:01 | 2000 doped
-7. Lance Armstrong ______ USA | 49:01 | 2000 doped
-8. Frank Schleck ________ LUX | 49:02 | 2009 doped
-9. Nairo Quintana _______ COL | 49:04 | 2013 ?
10. Roman Kreuziger ______ CZE | 49:05 | 2009 doped
11. Franco Pellizotti ____ ITA | 49:15 | 2009 doped
12. Vincenzo Nibali ______ ITA | 49:17 | 2009 ?
13. Bradley Wiggins ______ GBR | 49:22 | 2009 ?
14. Joseba Beloki ________ ESP | 49:26 | 2000 doped
15. Jan Ullrich __________ GER | 49:30 | 2000 doped
16. Raimondas Rumsas _____ LTU | 49:49 | 2002 not sure
17. Roberto Heras ________ ESP | 49:49 | 2000 doped
18. Ivan Basso ___________ ITA | 49:52 | 2002 doped0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:If i hear "people like you" "invested too much in their favorite riders" "waited so long for a British Champion" "just like uspostal fans" and the absolutely incredible "not allowed an opinion" one more time from Rundfahrt I swear I'm going to go completely f@cking postal.
We know your opinion, we've heard it over and over and over again. Far from not being allowed to have one, youve been allowed to post it a million times without the mods stepping in. but apparently you dont think were allowed to express the counter opinion that youre a nasty little troll with a poisonous agenda and a massive superiority complex. And when you're trying to caricature some of the most level headed sensible posters like Rich as blind fan boys incapable of reasonable debate it's clear you wouldn't know it if someone smacked you in the face with it. All attempts at reasoned discourse just meet the same crap.
Please, for the love of God, just go away. I've had stomach upsets that have been more pleasurable, and have offered more intelligent thought.
I truly do not know if you are taking the piss or if you are simply a moron. Usually when you guys blindly defend Sky you post some things that are facts, but this post includes absolutely nothing that is true.
The only other time I have posted this was in the other doping thread that got buried.
I posted here as you blind sky defenders demanded, now you guys cry about it, just more proof that what I am saying is true.
Every time I post my opinion I am attack and insulted, that is far from being allowed to post my opinion. Hell, your post just proves what I am saying is correct.
The only thing you have done here is indict yourself with your own words.
I could resort to your level of attacks and insults but I won't, because I am actually trying to have a discussion not just trying to dismiss anyone who does not fall in lock step.0 -
TdF 2013 - Part II
By: Michele Ferrari
Published: 11 Jul 2013
The average speed of Tony Martin (54.2 Km/h) was indeed very high in yesterday's TT, but it was Froome's performance that surprised the suiveurs: 54.0 Km/h, with the rivals nearly 3 km/h slower.
While the usual malicious comments are being wasted around, repeating adjectives already used after the team time trial done at 58 km/h, I remind that in cycling, in the flats, the speed is not a very significant parameter, heavily influenced by the course (more or less straight), the wind direction, the type of asphalt, etc.
Technical materials are constantly evolving: apart from bikes frames and aero helmets, it is especially the new bodysuits textures and fabrics that significantly increase the speed at the same watts.
It is risky to estimate power outputs of athletes engaged in time trials on flat courses: Claudio Ghisalberti (Gazzetta dello Sport) ventured into assessments that Cyclingnews.com reported as "pseudo-science": 480w average for Martin and 470w average for Froome.
How he arrived at these numbers is not known, but the reporter adds: Froome "has 18% more power than their rivals."
Now, assuming the aerodynamic efficiency to be equal for all riders (something that IS NOT...), considering the square speeds, the difference in power would be represented as follows:
Froome: 54.0 Km / h - 2916 (v2)
Porte: 52.3 - 2738, -6.5%
Mollema: 51.3 - 2635; -10.6%
Valverde: 51.2 - 2619; -11.3%
Contador: 51.1 - 2613; -11.3%
Evans: 50.8 - 2580; -13.1%
Quintana: 49.6 - 2456; -18.7%
In the last 5 km of the climb towards Aix 3 Domaines, from the moment of Froome's attack, the differences were smaller (but still very significant):
Porte: -5.5%
Valverde: -7.5%
Mollema: -7.6%
Contador: -11.5%
Quintana: -11.5%
Froome's attitude towards time trials is well known, but these differences between climbing and TT performances cannot be explained solely by the difference in body weight among athletes.
Contrary to the large majority of cyclists, Froome (but also Wiggins) is climbing with higher cadences (100-110 RPM) than in TT's (90-100 RPM), where he prefers to push important gears, perhaps also due to the use of longer cranks.
The extreme thinness, even with a significant reduction in lean body mass, evidently does not take away the power in his pedaling, which is particularly fluid, probably due to a reduction of internal friction and the cost of "spinning the legs."Contador is the Greatest0 -
rayjay wrote:No tail wind when the got out of the tree line
Untrue I'm afraid, on the TV footage you could clearly see flags being blown in the direction of the riders i.e. a tailwind.
Oh, and because at least one rider said there was a tailwind:
Greg Henderson @Greghenderson1 21h
Tailwind up the whole climb helped my watts per kilo guys so don't go getting too impressed by my time up Ventoux.0 -
Rayjay demonstrates the agenda of the doping fanbois perfectly be posting a set of numbers that has been posted, and discussed already. I suppose you re now going to try and tell us that there are genuine questions to be asked?
Don't expect us to think you ll listen to the answers unless they all say Sky dope...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
-
Why do people get so wound up about the issue of Riders doping in cycling . They have always done it .FACT.
Why is it that all you Sky fans seem to think Nibali doped, yet when we ask the same questions about Sky you take such offence? Skys first year on the road was a failure . Other teams laughed at them i.e. all the gear no idea .
They then hire Dr Gert Leinders and they start winning big time. If you look at things simply and not let your biased for a fav team or rider blind your sight it looks mighty suspicious. Around the time of the Giro 3 riders tested positive, its still going on. I don't care if Froome is doping or not , that was still a dam fast ride .Its a shame the competition is not at its best. Sky fans your boy is winning , enjoy it for what it is . Don't get so defensive . legit questions are being asked in times when all sports come under scrutiny . No one is attacking you personally just asking questions based on what we have seen and on the evidence the questions are justifed.0 -
How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely no idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...0
-
ThomThom wrote:How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely know idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...
I can ask some BR posters that were there if you like?Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Yes we do. We can look at which way the flags are blowing. In the top part there was clearly a tail/cross win from the rear/left.ThomThom wrote:How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely know idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
No tailwind? I guess all these flags must be self-fluttering then:rayjay wrote:No tail wind when the got out of the tree line and going up you have a wall of trees both sides . The tailwind was useful before they hit the climb once on the climb it was of no major benefit .
They've got wires in them like the flag they planted on the moon (waits for someone to say the moon landings never happened
) 0 -
Rundfahrt wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:If i hear "people like you" "invested too much in their favorite riders" "waited so long for a British Champion" "just like uspostal fans" and the absolutely incredible "not allowed an opinion" one more time from Rundfahrt I swear I'm going to go completely f@cking postal.
We know your opinion, we've heard it over and over and over again. Far from not being allowed to have one, youve been allowed to post it a million times without the mods stepping in. but apparently you dont think were allowed to express the counter opinion that youre a nasty little troll with a poisonous agenda and a massive superiority complex. And when you're trying to caricature some of the most level headed sensible posters like Rich as blind fan boys incapable of reasonable debate it's clear you wouldn't know it if someone smacked you in the face with it. All attempts at reasoned discourse just meet the same crap.
Please, for the love of God, just go away. I've had stomach upsets that have been more pleasurable, and have offered more intelligent thought.
Some stuff about his martyrdom, completely lacking in self-reflection.
Pointless. Utterly, utterly pointless.
You join a very, very select blocked list.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Why do people get so wound up about the issue of Riders doping in cycling . They have always done it .FACT.
Well, fair enough
Why is it that all you Sky fans seem to think Nibali doped, yet when we ask the same questions about Sky you take such offence? Skys first year on the road was a failure . Other teams laughed at them i.e. all the gear no idea .
There was a thread on here during the Giro where someone asked that and all of us Skybois or not said we thought he was clean
They then hire Dr Gert Leinders and they start winning big time. If you look at things simply and not let your biased for a fav team or rider blind your sight it looks mighty suspicious.
Dealt with so often...
Around the time of the Giro 3 riders tested positive, its still going on.
You mean the Giro where Sky (according to most onlookers) had a shocker right?
I don't care if Froome is doping or not , that was still a dam fast ride .Its a shame the competition is not at its best. Sky fans your boy is winning , enjoy it for what it is . Don't get so defensive . legit questions are being asked in times when all sports come under scrutiny .
What are we...27 pages in and we ve not had one yet...
No one is attacking you personally just asking questions based on what we have seen and on the evidence the questions are justifed.
See above, 27 pages and not a shred of genuine evidence has been supplied yetWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Brailsford is in an impossible position (i.e. proving a negative, it can't be done) and is very understandably unwilling to broadcast his team's hard-won intellectual property (i.e. training regimes, power data etc., we wouldn't expect anyone else in any commercial field to do this).
He has laid down the challenge to the doubters: "what would convince you?"
So come on you doubters, spit it out, what is it exactly that you want to know?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ju ... ord-doping0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Yes we do. We can look at which way the flags are blowing. In the top part there was clearly a tail/cross win from the rear/left.ThomThom wrote:How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely know idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...
Thanks for proving my point.
Love my 'know' instead of 'no' btw, haha.0 -
I think we went to the moon, errr wrong site .
Obvioulsy there was a tail wind going up but at the top there was an head wind according to Paul Sherwin.
So I was wrong about the first point so I hope that I have not caused to much upset by my wrong wind views , although it does seem to have upset a few . On a personal note I have quite healthy wind and no smell except the odd occasion.0 -
ThomThom wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Yes we do. We can look at which way the flags are blowing. In the top part there was clearly a tail/cross win from the rear/left.ThomThom wrote:How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely know idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...
Thanks for proving my point.
Love my 'know' instead of 'no' btw, haha.
It was a double knewgative as well.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
ThomThom wrote:How does this sound: None of us sitting behind a computer far away from Ventoux have absolutely no idea if the winds were tail, cross or head...
To be fair, flags are pretty reliable in their indication of wind direction. I don't need to be there to see which way they are pointingSaracen Tenet 3 - 2015 - Dead - Replaced with a Hack Frame
Voodoo Bizango - 2014 - Dead - Hit by a car
Vitus Sentier VRS - 20170 -
.. 0
-
rayjay wrote:Obvioulsy there was a tail wind going up but at the top there was an head wind according to Paul Sherwin.
Yeah, Id take that as 100% proof that there was a tail wind to be honest...
Thom - what do you have against flags?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
For all the fanboys, you would do well to read this so as to understand why some of the longer-in-the-tooth cycling fans doubt some of the recent performances. http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/ ... rue_295224**************************************************
www.dotcycling.com
***************************************************0 -
frenchfighter wrote:But it is different if you do that after a 30min warm up or after 220km of racing at close to 50km/h though. Not to mention being interspersed with multiple incredible accelerations on a hot day with little oxygen in the air. Or do we disagree?
Curious, but 1900m is not THAT high - there are reasonable oxygen levels in the air at that altitude, but clearly not quite enough for Froome or Quintana who both needed a bottle at the end. Normal people only really start to feel the lack of oxygen above 2000m, but these are elite athletes whose bodies process oxygen very efficiently, although clearly both Froome and Quintana pushed themselves to the limit.
Also you conveniently ignore the fact that Froome was dragged along the flat and over half way up the climb - you post as if he was the one dragging the peleton along all day.
One thing is very clear so far this Tour, and that is Contador has (so far) been riding it clean as his performances in comparison to his pre-ban, and even last year have been way off.0 -
ddraver wrote:Why do people get so wound up about the issue of Riders doping in cycling . They have always done it .FACT.
Well, fair enough
Why is it that all you Sky fans seem to think Nibali doped, yet when we ask the same questions about Sky you take such offence? Skys first year on the road was a failure . Other teams laughed at them i.e. all the gear no idea .
There was a thread on here during the Giro where someone asked that and all of us Skybois or not said we thought he was clean
They then hire Dr Gert Leinders and they start winning big time. If you look at things simply and not let your biased for a fav team or rider blind your sight it looks mighty suspicious.
Dealt with so often...
Around the time of the Giro 3 riders tested positive, its still going on.
You mean the Giro where Sky (according to most onlookers) had a shocker right?
I don't care if Froome is doping or not , that was still a dam fast ride .Its a shame the competition is not at its best. Sky fans your boy is winning , enjoy it for what it is . Don't get so defensive . legit questions are being asked in times when all sports come under scrutiny .
What are we...27 pages in and we ve not had one yet...
No one is attacking you personally just asking questions based on what we have seen and on the evidence the questions are justifed.
See above, 27 pages and not a shred of genuine evidence has been supplied yet
Very nice replys . You cannot say Gert Leinders is not evidence . He dopes riders for a living . Sky forgot to check his CV? come on. You look at previous results of Wiggo and Froome before Leinders joined Sky and they were no where at that levels they now achieve. They are not new riders. Ring a bell. Some very very fast times beating times set by doped riders . I think that is enough to ask questions . Don't forget Until Armstrong admitted doping there was no actual proof that he doped . Fact. He got caught by the huge number of testomonies against Him .Not physical evidence0 -
-
Can someone explain, is fanboy/fanboi a derogatory term and something only Sky supporters can be called?Eddy Merckx EMX-3
Dolan L'Etape
Cougar Zero Uno
Genesis Core 50
Planet X TOR0 -
Wasn't the last bend a hairpin? In that case Sherwin might be right that there was a headwind at the finish, but not the rest of the way up! 0
-
rayjay wrote:Why do people get so wound up about the issue of Riders doping in cycling . They have always done it .FACT.
Why is it that all you Sky fans seem to think Nibali doped, yet when we ask the same questions about Sky you take such offence? .
loads of us don't get involved in this shitstorm or at least only the periphery.
That said I think its inportant pressure is put on us all looking at the yellow jersey to make sure.
there are basically three options apart from sitting on the wall, which is where we are really because the truth is we do not know.
option one.You believe Sky Froome et al are clean
option two. You believe Sky/BC cycling are systematically doping the "ukpostals" option. Note just froome on the gear but with team knowledge counts as systemic
option three. You believe Riders in Sky are DIY doping without team knowledge or consent. As soon as the team management discovers it and do nothing it becomes option two.
of all of those option 3 strikes me as the most unlikely...the team would just find out and if they have then we are into the ukpostals. And that strikes me as very unlikely for political reasons. if DB is pulling a fast one he is going to be strung up by his gonads when it comes out..and cycling credibility will drop to a debilitating low.
the sponsors all over will walk.
road racing out the olympics and by association with BC the track as well.
its too crazy to contemplate that they are dirty..its this that makes me give them the sliver of doubt required.
the area of sky I have a problem with is the hypocrisy of taking on the zero tolerance policy then hiring rodgers who may well be clean now but etc... and the whole we didn't know thing is ridiculous! DB saying he was shocked to learn about Larry was disturbing because his sincerity was only just below his norm so lying is not off his agenda in my estimation
At least at Garmin they basically said "look we are a bunch of dopers and we are trying to do something about it".
the two areas of scandal I am guessing as most likely is Froome at Barloworld? or discovering that Sky are doing things that are not banned but should be... new forms of intervention that act like PEDS.. this switching off the brain response to physical exertion thing using ECT or some-such voodoo
Or they really have looked at the training and got it right... they are straight as a die. nutrition and weight control has come along heaps
VAM etc... I haven't seen good numbers argued well but would note that the numbers arguing that Lance doped were not questioned as much by the fanbois base as the explanations given here as to why froome is in a comparative league of his own.
personally from a Wild Ar5e Guessing spectators' POV cycling looks a lot less doped than I can remember including Froome"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
This discussion has been closed.
