Jumping red Lights

davis

Headhuunter wrote:

davis wrote:

BigLights wrote:

On the way home last light, the light changed while I was approaching it, to green that is, so I cycled through...couple of middle aged ladies were ambling across the road (holding up traffice i'd add), shouted at me 'watch the lights'...'erm, it's green ladies'....

You were wrong to go through the lights (green though they were) while there were people still crossing the road.

Rubbish... If they've started to cross the road without looking at the lights properly that's their problem. I'm not saying you should mow them down but if you don't pay attention to traffic and traffic lights it's only a matter of time before you get hit by something.

To my eyes, his account reads as "Some ladies were crossing the road slowly, and the lights changed to green (for me) before they got to the other side". If that's what happened, then he's in the wrong as green on a traffic light doesn't mean "go", it means "go if it's clear to do so". Maybe you're reading it differently.

BigLights

No to be clear, they were beginning to cross as the lights went green..i rode nowhere near them, and in actual fact probably did them a favour giving them a headsup to scuttle back to the pavement. otherwise they may have been taken out by a motorbike or somesuch when they reached the middle of the road.

Rather amusingly, there's a guy at about 7pm on the Strand westbound who ALWAYS shouts at me (us) when he's there...irate, literally hysterical. RED LIGHT blah blah...erm, no, sorry pal, it's actually a green light....you're looking at the pedestrian lights mate. Whatevs.

Headhuunter

BigLights wrote:

No to be clear, they were beginning to cross as the lights went green..i rode nowhere near them, and in actual fact probably did them a favour giving them a headsup to scuttle back to the pavement. otherwise they may have been taken out by a motorbike or somesuch when they reached the middle of the road.

Rather amusingly, there's a guy at about 7pm on the Strand westbound who ALWAYS shouts at me (us) when he's there...irate, literally hysterical. RED LIGHT blah blah...erm, no, sorry pal, it's actually a green light....you're looking at the pedestrian lights mate. Whatevs.

Yes, I've had idiot peds look at me like I'm doing something wrong riding or shouting at me for riding through a green light at a ped crossing... Bloody nightmare!

Douglas74

I find that informing the pedestrians of my lack of brakes usually gets them scurrying before I do the lights.

<joke>

alexl89

There are particular lights I choose to ignore because it is safer for me to get a head start over all the motorised vehicles.

The Rookie

Then your a pr@t......as well as a criminal.

arran77

alexl89 wrote:

There are particular lights I choose to ignore because it is safer for me to get a head start over all the motorised vehicles.

I tend to agree with you but I'll often use the pavement as a way to avoid the lights, I also regularly ride up the inside of stationary traffic to cut ahead of them so they have to overtake me again.

alexl89

The Rookie wrote:

Then your a pr@t......as well as a criminal.

You have no clue. I am referring to round abouts in particular.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/20 ... ts-in.html

England is famous for having the worst cycling infrastructure in Europe. I am not going to let a red light increase my chances of being hit by an angry driver that hates cyclists, I would rather get out of their way as quickly as possible.

Douglas74

I always jump the lights myself. Why stop when it is perfectly safe to carry on?

chris_bass

Douglas74 wrote:

I always jump the lights myself. Why stop when it is perfectly safe to carry on?

but if you don't stop how will all the pedestrians and drivers tell you how cool you are?

Headlamp

I am not a cyclist but commute everyday on a motorbike. My commute from North London takes me into the City and includes Clerkenwell Road which resembles a peleton in the morning.

Every day without fail I reckon between 40%-60% of all cyclists I see jump red lights. It's their (your) choice. Very occasionally I see police on bicycles pulling the light jumpers over but in 98% of cases they get away with it. I think it's only fair to say that 70% of all cyclists in London show a reasonable level of roadcraft and awareness, so some 'good' cyclists do jump red lights. (I'll talk about the other 30% later! :shock: )

I read about once a week or see with my own eyes a cyclist who is injured, sometimes seriously or killed. The reason why the accident rate his high is because a proportion cyclists see other cyclists behaving as if they are above the law (jumping red lights) and they then think they are too. Except you can't beat the law of physics when a lorry turns left. Motorcyclists who obey every red light know that if there is a large vehicle up ahead, undertaking is a big risk as it may turn left, as is to cut in front of a car that turns right, or manouvre without checking mirrors and a lifesaver look over the shoulder.

I don't hate cyclists for jumping red lights - I pity them - because one day they will encounter a speeding car or a stoned van driver (there are plenty of those on London roads) or whatever. Then we'll have that t*t Andrew Gilligan bemoaning it's not safe for cyclists in London and that cars & lorries should be banned or whatever! No, the starting point is for ALL road users to obey the law - especially traffic lights.

As for the other 30% of riders who are 'bad' e.g. riding up Camden High Street likes it's a country lane in Gloucestershire with headphones strikes me as one notch below suicide and 'death by cop'. Yet everyday I see several cyclists ambling about, out of position on the road, wearing no protection, listening to tunes on their i-phone. There are also those prats who are really aggressive, ride on the wrong side of the road, on pavements, harass pedestrians etc. Thankfully they make up 2% of cyclists but they are the ones that you guys need to 'embarrass' into behaving. They are a danger for all road users and there needs to be a crackdown on those idiots.

Headhuunter

On my commute in London I see motorists jump reds EVERY DAY. Try the junction of Borough HS/Marshalsea Rd/Gt Dover St... EVERY SINGLE DAY, 2 or 3 if not more motorists jump the red from Borough HS to turn right into Gt Dover St. Or I think it's the junction of Southwark Pk Rd/Dunton Rd and Grange Rd.... Again, EVERY DAY 3 or 4 cars shoot through the red from Dunton to turn right or go straight on.... That's 2 examples I can think of but there are plenty of other spots I see cars jumping reds at every light change....

cookeeemonster

Headlamp wrote:

I am not a cyclist but commute everyday on a motorbike. My commute from North London takes me into the City and includes Clerkenwell Road which resembles a peloton in the morning.

Every day without fail I reckon between 40%-60% of all cyclists I see jump red lights. It's their (your) choice. Very occasionally I see police on bicycles pulling the light jumpers over but in 98% of cases they get away with it. I think it's only fair to say that 70% of all cyclists in London show a reasonable level of roadcraft and awareness, so some 'good' cyclists do jump red lights. (I'll talk about the other 30% later! :shock: )

I read about once a week or see with my own eyes a cyclist who is injured, sometimes seriously or killed. The reason why the accident rate his high is because a proportion cyclists see other cyclists behaving as if they are above the law (jumping red lights) and they then think they are too. Except you can't beat the law of physics when a lorry turns left. Motorcyclists who obey every red light know that if there is a large vehicle up ahead, undertaking is a big risk as it may turn left, as is to cut in front of a car that turns right, or manouvre without checking mirrors and a lifesaver look over the shoulder.

I don't hate cyclists for jumping red lights - I pity them - because one day they will encounter a speeding car or a stoned van driver (there are plenty of those on London roads) or whatever. Then we'll have that t*t Andrew Gilligan bemoaning it's not safe for cyclists in London and that cars & lorries should be banned or whatever! No, the starting point is for ALL road users to obey the law - especially traffic lights.

As for the other 30% of riders who are 'bad' e.g. riding up Camden High Street likes it's a country lane in Gloucestershire with headphones strikes me as one notch below suicide and 'death by cop'. Yet everyday I see several cyclists ambling about, out of position on the road, wearing no protection, listening to tunes on their i-phone. There are also those prats who are really aggressive, ride on the wrong side of the road, on pavements, harass pedestrians etc. Thankfully they make up 2% of cyclists but they are the ones that you guys need to 'embarrass' into behaving. They are a danger for all road users and there needs to be a crackdown on those idiots.

we all know about the bad minority of cyclists who give the rest a bad name on londons roads - we know because they cause the good majority a hell of a lot more pain and put them in a lot more danger than they do cars/motorbikes etc.

But let me tell you fella - I also ride motorbikes/scooters in london, and have done for a lot more time than I have been a cyclist (mostly converted to a cycle now, not entirely though) and you really, really cant complain about cyclists breaking the highway code with a straight face.

I'd estimate 90% of motorbikes on londons roads break the speed limit all day every day if they can - normally when accelerating from lights, sometimes just for the hell of it (sports bikes are fun!!!! yay!!) They also illegally enter ASL's (the bike box), illegally enter cycle lanes, illegally enter bus lanes (not all allow motorbikes) and basically if there's any rule that they can break AND GET AWAY WITH that will help them to a faster journey, they will do it.

So they're basically the same as all other road users then.

Most don't put other people in danger (much as the idiot red light jumping cyclists) but that's not the point, they break the highway code because they can and as a result people are biased against them much like cyclists (they hate cyclists more though I'd say).

Having said all that, the vast majority of cyclist and motorbike 'accidents' are caused not by d*ckhead riding but car drivers not looking before pulling out at junctions and left hooks and so on. But the perception is we deserve all we get.

Like life, some things are not fair...

Headlamp

CookeeeMonster wrote:

But let me tell you fella - I also ride motorbikes/scooters in london, and have done for a lot more time than I have been a cyclist (mostly converted to a cycle now, not entirely though) and you really, really cant complain about cyclists breaking the highway code with a straight face.

I'd estimate 90% of motorbikes on londons roads break the speed limit all day every day if they can - normally when accelerating from lights, sometimes just for the hell of it (sports bikes are fun!!!! yay!!) They also illegally enter ASL's (the bike box), illegally enter cycle lanes, illegally enter bus lanes (not all allow motorbikes) and basically if there's any rule that they can break AND GET AWAY WITH that will help them to a faster journey, they will do it.

I am not complaining! Each to their own I say! What I am saying is that there is an air of 'invincibility' that comes with breaking the law. Running red lights creates that ergo cyclists become complacent and have accidents.

I agree the majority of motorcyclists don't stick to 30MPH (or 20MPH in Camden and Islington). The difference is, as you'll know is that the training m/cyclists have had means we are bit more wary when it comes to general road awareness.

cookeeemonster

Headlamp wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

But let me tell you fella - I also ride motorbikes/scooters in london, and have done for a lot more time than I have been a cyclist (mostly converted to a cycle now, not entirely though) and you really, really cant complain about cyclists breaking the highway code with a straight face.

I'd estimate 90% of motorbikes on londons roads break the speed limit all day every day if they can - normally when accelerating from lights, sometimes just for the hell of it (sports bikes are fun!!!! yay!!) They also illegally enter ASL's (the bike box), illegally enter cycle lanes, illegally enter bus lanes (not all allow motorbikes) and basically if there's any rule that they can break AND GET AWAY WITH that will help them to a faster journey, they will do it.

I am not complaining! Each to their own I say! What I am saying is that there is an air of 'invincibility' that comes with breaking the law. Running red lights creates that ergo cyclists become complacent and have accidents.

I agree the majority of motorcyclists don't stick to 30MPH (or 20MPH in Camden and Islington). The difference is, as you'll know is that the training m/cyclists have had means we are bit more wary when it comes to general road awareness.

yeah that's true - I brought my 'defensive riding' training to my bicycle when I started. Basically if in doubt - give way - you aint gonna win against a 1/2/40 ton lump of metal and try to have a backup plan at all times (not always possible sadly).

I agree that more cyclists should follow this, makes for a lot less stressful journey than constantly taking risks and you only need to allow a few minutes extra for your commute in reality (from someone who does a 36 mile round trip)

dilemna

Cyclists who RLJ are vermin.

This evening a middle aged git on a road bike on Maids Causweay in Cambridge thought he would ride straight through a red light at a controlled crossing at speed, no attempt whatsoever to stop, weaving dangeroulsy between a guy pushing his kid in a push chair, me and another woman between all of us, narrowly missing the guy's other 5 year old kid. What a total tosser. An umbrella through their wheels is the best thing or just be able to shoot them.

Mr.Duck

I did RLJ once by accident. I was slowing for a red light, I was looking down at the road, as I got to the stop line I looked back up. All I saw was a green light right in front of me, I saw it was clear, then I saw a cyclist fly through. So I went. The green light I saw was 25m up the road. The red light that was for me was up high to the left or to the right, which is why I missed it. I'd really have to crane my neck to see it.

It seems pretty easy to do now that I think about it. Has anyone else done this?

chris_bass

To the people saying it is safer to jump some lights than wait, do you have any evidence for this?

proportion of cyclists killed or injured as a result of waiting at lights vs those who didn't?

I think relaxing the laws on turning left at junctions with lights does have its benefits, like they do this in Paris. Or at T junctions having a cycle lane that goes across the top of the T wouldnt hold anyone up or be dangerous. There are definitely things that would help and might make people more likely to stop given that they arent held up at all the lights (i'll admit this may be wishful thinking!) a bit of give and take.

Having said all that, I always stop at lights and will continue to do so until the law is changed, but i'm not being all holier than thou and if people do run lights I don't approve but there isnt a lot I can do about it!

jonomc4

I tried jumping a red light last night but failed - it was too high

cookeeemonster

jonomc4 wrote:

I tried jumping a red light last night but failed - it was too high

you need a good run up

ManOfKent

Mr.Duck wrote:

I did RLJ once by accident. I was slowing for a red light, I was looking down at the road, as I got to the stop line I looked back up. All I saw was a green light right in front of me, I saw it was clear, then I saw a cyclist fly through. So I went. The green light I saw was 25m up the road. The red light that was for me was up high to the left or to the right, which is why I missed it. I'd really have to crane my neck to see it.

It seems pretty easy to do now that I think about it. Has anyone else done this?

I did something a little similar yesterday: went through a green light at a junction and realised too late that there was a pedestrian crossing at red about 20 yards further on. Fortunately it was clear.

I occasionally go through red lights on purpose, usually pedestrian crossings where there's no one waiting to cross or a couple of sets of lights near me where the magnetic pick-ups in the road don't seem to register bikes so I would otherwise be sitting stationary until a car comes along. That said, I know I'm in the wrong doing both those things. I simply don't want to wait.

That's one reason I don't buy the "it's safer" argument. Among the hundreds I ride across, I can't think of a single junction where it would be safer to ride through than stop for the lights. Also, a whole load of ASLs have been introduced in south-east London and whilst they aren't always respected by other road users, when they're clear and available some cyclists still don't stop. For me, it's simple: RLJers think their progress is more important than respecting the same laws that they expect other road users to obey. And I occasionally include myself in that.

junglist_matty

I RLJ'd this morning,

There's a traffic light controlled right turn onto the road my office is on, I always sit and wait and this morning was no different, but then there was a huge crash of thunder followed by a few big drips of rain, I thought to hell with this, there was a gap in the oncoming traffic so I darted across and went like hell to get my bike locked up and into the office, made it seconds before the heavens really opened!

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll ... gplus-ogsb

In the streetview link above, I wait where the red car is waiting, this is to turn right into the business park; as you can clearly see, when there is no oncoming traffic, it's no different to riding into any T junction, the lights are there for rush hour and mainly for people driving out of the business park to turn right because they're turning out onto a dual carriageway and in rush hour, there's always heavy traffic so getting out without the lights would be impossible.

joelsim

Jumping red lights just shows a total lack of respect for other road users. It p1sses me off and many others too. It's the same as drink driving in my book - dangerous, selfish, ignorant and just plain wrong.

tootsie323

I'm inclined to agree with Joelism, above. I expect other road uses to show me respect and consideration when I'm on my bike and, in turn, I expect myself to act in the same way by obeying the rules of the road. I'm not perfect - but, then, I'm not perfect in a car either (and, in both cases, I'll quickly acknowledge any mistakes to other users)!

I don't buy into the 'safer to jump them' argument I have read in one or two other posts - though it's only fair to point out that I tend to use mainly rural routes and live in a medium-sized town, not a large city, so I do not experience traffic levels that others will.

Still... how can we expect motorists to react to cyclists sharing the road if they witness some examples pertaining to the thread subject?

markhewitt1978

I made an attempt this morning. Country road with a set of roadworks so one lane coned off but only for about 50 metres. I was going downhill at about 20mph, nobody behind me and nobody approaching the works, so I just decided to go through anyway, however the lights turned to green just as I passed them (presumably detected by approach), so I didn't RLJ after all

Headhuunter

Joelsim wrote:

Jumping red lights just shows a total lack of respect for other road users. It p1sses me off and many others too. It's the same as drink driving in my book - dangerous, selfish, ignorant and just plain wrong.

I think classifying RLJing as the same as drink driving is a slight exaggeration of the situation to say the least! On the 1 hand you have a driver under the influence of drink, reactions severely impaired, driving 2 tones+ of steel and glass, potentially at high speed. On the other had we have a cyclist, not drunk (well possibly but not necessarily) riding a bike (bike and rider weighing up to 100kg I suppose) through a red.

The RLJing cyclist is most likely to be a danger to him or herself than anyone else on the road. The drink driver is more than capable of multiple homicide and ruining many families and lives...

cookeeemonster

Headhuunter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Jumping red lights just shows a total lack of respect for other road users. It p1sses me off and many others too. It's the same as drink driving in my book - dangerous, selfish, ignorant and just plain wrong.

I think classifying RLJing as the same as drink driving is a slight exaggeration of the situation to say the least! On the 1 hand you have a driver under the influence of drink, reactions severely impaired, driving 2 tones+ of steel and glass, potentially at high speed. On the other had we have a cyclist, not drunk (well possibly but not necessarily) riding a bike (bike and rider weighing up to 100kg I suppose) through a red.

The RLJing cyclist is most likely to be a danger to him or herself than anyone else on the road. The drink driver is more than capable of multiple homicide and ruining many families and lives...

I understand this argument but a couple of months ago I had to do an emergency stop on my Vespa due to a red light jumping roadie almost hitting me. Had I been slightly less alert or if the road was slightly wet I would have either hit him or skidded off and probably gone under the wheels of the car/lorry either side of me.

Of course after the 'rabbit in the headlights' look on his face disappeared he sped off without a word of apology (or anything for that matter)...which is pretty typical of this type of rider.

And a number of times I've seen cars swerve unexpectedly due to these idiots. It's thankfully rare but sometimes red light jumping does have terrible consequences.

Headhuunter

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Jumping red lights just shows a total lack of respect for other road users. It p1sses me off and many others too. It's the same as drink driving in my book - dangerous, selfish, ignorant and just plain wrong.

I think classifying RLJing as the same as drink driving is a slight exaggeration of the situation to say the least! On the 1 hand you have a driver under the influence of drink, reactions severely impaired, driving 2 tones+ of steel and glass, potentially at high speed. On the other had we have a cyclist, not drunk (well possibly but not necessarily) riding a bike (bike and rider weighing up to 100kg I suppose) through a red.

The RLJing cyclist is most likely to be a danger to him or herself than anyone else on the road. The drink driver is more than capable of multiple homicide and ruining many families and lives...

I understand this argument but a couple of months ago I had to do an emergency stop on my Vespa due to a red light jumping roadie almost hitting me. Had I been slightly less alert or if the road was slightly wet I would have either hit him or skidded off and probably gone under the wheels of the car/lorry either side of me.

Of course after the 'rabbit in the headlights' look on his face disappeared he sped off without a word of apology (or anything for that matter)...which is pretty typical of this type of rider.

And a number of times I've seen cars swerve unexpectedly due to these idiots. It's thankfully rare but sometimes red light jumping does have terrible consequences.

Well yes, RLJing can be dangerous but in general the only person likely to be killed or injured is the cyclist him or herself. This is most certainly not the case with drink driving...

Mr.Duck

The other day I was waiting at a red with a car right beside me on my left. This isn't London where the traffic keeps moving from another direction. We were just sitting there for what felt like 60 seconds with nothing much going on. Felt good to do it. Equality, commerardary, and all that.

You need to follow the same rules if you expect to use the same roads.

tootsie323

Headhuunter wrote:

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Joelsim wrote:

Jumping red lights... the same as drink driving in my book - dangerous, selfish, ignorant and just plain wrong.

I think classifying RLJing as the same as drink driving is a slight exaggeration of the situation to say the least...! The RLJing cyclist is most likely to be a danger to him or herself than anyone else on the road. The drink driver is more than capable of multiple homicide and ruining many families and lives...

I understand this argument but... a number of times I've seen cars swerve unexpectedly due to these idiots. It's thankfully rare but sometimes red light jumping does have terrible consequences.

Well yes, RLJing can be dangerous but in general the only person likely to be killed or injured is the cyclist him or herself. This is most certainly not the case with drink driving...

I believe the counter-argument above is that a cyclist jumping a red light may well cause other traffic to take instinctive avoiding action and, as a result, endanger ther road users. There's an example on another thread about a bus passenger severely injured due to the bus driver making a sudden emergency stop to avoid a cyclist who had cut in fromt of the bus. In other words, it is quite possible that the consequences of RLJing may be as serious as those for drink driving, even if the offences in themselves are not the same.