Jumping red Lights

daddy0

Its a jungle out there.

I generally don't run red lights, but I am not 100% perfect and I have jumped reds on my bike and in my car by accident and on purpose. I probably stop at 99.99% of red lights though, so don't have a go at me for that statement or the next.

Some motorists are wound up by your very presence and it doesn't matter if you're obeying the law or not. The only times I have ever got in trouble were when I was obeying the law indicated and took primary position - had people knock me off my bike with their car/van twice for doing that. Both times on purpose. If I had jumped the red on these occasions I would've avoided getting in their way and their wrath.

I wear a helmet 99% of the time because I can reach over 50mph and I'm surrounded by big fast moving lumps of metal piloted by complete idiots. Some of these idiots are drunk, stoned, coked out of their heads etc... Its a no brainer, I'll get my coat...

BigLights

There is a red man on my habitual RLJ...because the other lane is green to go straight on.

peat

"I can do what i like, it's none of your business, it doesn't affect anyone else"

It does. It affects all of us. Driver's see you riding like a cnut and cast that negative view on every other cyclist just trying to get where we're going within the highway code.

To be honest, you sound like a petulant 13yr old.

Not a good look.................hombre.

Bustacapp

Peat wrote:

It does. It affects all of us. Driver's see you riding like a cnut and cast that negative view on every other cyclist just trying to get where we're going within the highway code.

I've not had one 'beep' off a single driver. I stop at red lights during the majority of the commute, but once I hit the town centre, I'll make judgements based on personal safety first, and highway code second. For example, if all the traffic is stopped at a red light, and I see an entry kerb to a cycle lane just in front of said light, then I will roll through and onto the pavement whilst the coast is clear. I fail to see the point of waiting until all the traffic starts moving to do so. It only increases risk to me.

To be honest, you sound like a petulant 13yr old.

Oh really?

Not a good look.................hombre.

To be honest, you sound like a 13yr old.

peat

Right. OK. Wonderful.

sandhun

Peat, you're spot on.

Let's face it, there will always be selfish idiots like Bustacapp.

It's a shame, but he genuinley sees nothing wrong with his behaviour.

He's the cycling equivalent of the motorist who thinks speed limits or drink driving laws don't apply to him.

We cannot possibly hope to educate ALL road users.

For the sake of some of the regulars who are bored of this topic maybe we should let it lie.

Bustacapp

sandhun wrote:

Peat, you're spot on.

Let's face it, there will always be selfish idiots like Bustacapp.

It's a shame, but he genuinley sees nothing wrong with his behaviour.

He's the cycling equivalent of the motorist who thinks speed limits or drink driving laws don't apply to him.

We cannot possibly hope to educate ALL road users.

For the sake of some of the regulars who are bored of this topic maybe we should let it lie.

Just for the record. I drink and ride too.

cedargreen

Slowbike wrote:

BigLights wrote:

big explanation

Ah - thanks ...

So it's a right turn filter that you "jump" ... or rather, just put yourself ahead of the traffic so you don't get squeezed .. I guess there's no "taking the lane" at the lights because the cars would just go round you on the junction.
Technically speaking you should choose a different route or walk your bike across on the pedestrian crossing, but I can see why you'd choose the route you do.

Why on earth should he 'choose a different route'? Or 'wheel his bike across the pedestrian crossing?
If we did these things every time we came across a piece of cycle unfriendly infrastructure implemented by brain dead traffic engineers, nobody would be able to cycle anywhere.

While I don't condone red light jumping, especially when it endangers pedestrians, the huge numbers doing it (at least in London) suggest that there's more to it than bloody-mindedness. I suspect that a lot of people have worked out, consciously or unconsciously, that the road system has been organised with only one purpose- to deal with increasing number of motor vehicles, and that in over half a century of putting in traffic lights and mini-roundabouts, sqeezing more lanes at the lights to 'improve traffic flow', the amount of time spent considering what the effect of all this shit might be on cyclists (and pedestrians) is less than a nanosecond. Cyclists are riding in what is basically a hostile environment and are adapting their behaviour in response. I think lots of people have worked out that riding cautiously through red is sometimes safer than being at the front/ alongside/ in the middle of several lanes of traffic, which thanks to the traffic engineers will probably be only one or two lanes at the other side of the junction, leading to aggressive/ selfish driving.

Ideally we would all obey traffic laws, but the way the roads are currently orgnised systematically ignores the needs of vulnerable road users, and traffic laws are rarely enforced- I've yet to see a single motorist stopped for using a mobile for example.

I'll save may anger for the useless parasites responsible for Britain's transport 'system'.

Headhuunter

cedargreen wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

BigLights wrote:

big explanation

Ah - thanks ...

So it's a right turn filter that you "jump" ... or rather, just put yourself ahead of the traffic so you don't get squeezed .. I guess there's no "taking the lane" at the lights because the cars would just go round you on the junction.
Technically speaking you should choose a different route or walk your bike across on the pedestrian crossing, but I can see why you'd choose the route you do.

Why on earth should he 'choose a different route'? Or 'wheel his bike across the pedestrian crossing?
If we did these things every time we came across a piece of cycle unfriendly infrastructure implemented by brain dead traffic engineers, nobody would be able to cycle anywhere.

While I don't condone red light jumping, especially when it endangers pedestrians, the huge numbers doing it (at least in London) suggest that there's more to it than bloody-mindedness. I suspect that a lot of people have worked out, consciously or unconsciously, that the road system has been organised with only one purpose- to deal with increasing number of motor vehicles, and that in over half a century of putting in traffic lights and mini-roundabouts, sqeezing more lanes at the lights to 'improve traffic flow', the amount of time spent considering what the effect of all this shoot might be on cyclists (and pedestrians) is less than a nanosecond. Cyclists are riding in what is basically a hostile environment and are adapting their behaviour in response. I think lots of people have worked out that riding cautiously through red is sometimes safer than being at the front/ alongside/ in the middle of several lanes of traffic, which thanks to the traffic engineers will probably be only one or two lanes at the other side of the junction, leading to aggressive/ selfish driving.

Ideally we would all obey traffic laws, but the way the roads are currently orgnised systematically ignores the needs of vulnerable road users, and traffic laws are rarely enforced- I've yet to see a single motorist stopped for using a mobile for example.

I'll save may anger for the useless parasites responsible for Britain's transport 'system'.

Absolutely agree. This dogged insistence by some cyclists that we all must obey the rules at all times is ridiculous. As you say, the road system in the UK is essentially built around the motor vehicle with little or no consideration for cyclists or even pedestrians. I'm afraid that until this situation is addressed, I couldn't give 2 hoots whether some idiot in his car is frustrated that I have just skipped a red, if it keeps me safe I'm afraid it's what I will continue to do. I'm not condoning willy nilly, careless jumping through all reds or blasting through pedestrian crossings but in some situations, sticking to the rules puts you in far more danger.

slowbike

cedargreen wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

BigLights wrote:

big explanation

Ah - thanks ...

So it's a right turn filter that you "jump" ... or rather, just put yourself ahead of the traffic so you don't get squeezed .. I guess there's no "taking the lane" at the lights because the cars would just go round you on the junction.
Technically speaking you should choose a different route or walk your bike across on the pedestrian crossing, but I can see why you'd choose the route you do.

Why on earth should he 'choose a different route'? Or 'wheel his bike across the pedestrian crossing?
If we did these things every time we came across a piece of cycle unfriendly infrastructure implemented by brain dead traffic engineers, nobody would be able to cycle anywhere.

I did say "technically" ... by jumping the red light (even if it is only by a few feet to get him in front of the traffic) he's breaking the law - it's not as though he has no alternative to this - he can take his chance with being squeezed out (obviously not desirable) or he could take an alternative route.
All I was doing was pointing out that there was an alternative to breaking the law - it may not be convenient and I agree that cyclists should be able to use the road without having to consider drastic avoidance procedures.

BigLights

I don't condone RLJ'ing for the sake of it, oh no. But I am also firmly a believer that the 'law' is not necessarily something to be followed blindly. I will gladly override the law and risk the consequences when my and others' safety is better served by doing so, or where there is a compelling moral case to do so, where the law just doesn't make sense. The law, whilst in the UK is very mature, is by no means perfect for every situation.

I use my right turn example above as that's the one where i've been stopped by a traffic copper, had a discussion, and he had to agree, so there is some veracity to my argument I feel here.

I would use the driving analogy. The driving test and highway code teach you a set of rigid rules for situations. Once you complete the IAM or other advanced type driving course one is taught that, in fact, applying skill, knowledge, anticipation and most importantly analytics to each and every situation you find you end up doing things that would be entirely counterintuitive to a basic driver. One does what is safest for you and all other parties, in any given situation. So, for example, driving down a 30mph zone outside a school, at 9am, in teh rain, well, I'd be doing maximum 20. But equally on a deserted Scottish road where the tarmac is excellent, no traffic, and a vanishing point of over 1 mile well, let's just say the 60mph limit isn't necessarily adhered to....

The same goes for cycle paths. I use them as advisory only and will happily ride in other road positions where it is demonstrably safer. Basic stuff.

tebbit

Remember that if you are doing something outside of the highway code and you are hit by a motorist who is at fault any compensation may well be reduced under contributory negligence. So it is perfectly possible that you may be acting sensibly and safely, however you may well be held to have contributed to the accident, however a bit of commons sense and courtesy goes a long way in avoiding situations.

BigLights

Agreed Tebbit...but I would far rather significantly reduce my chances of actually having that accident in the first place!

superkenners

Roads are designed for cars, I approach things from the perspective of my own personal safety, including red lights.

MrChuck

I'd say in nearly 100% of the times I see people jumping reds it's because they don't want to wait. The only time there's ever a safety aspect to it is when they've forced themselves to the front rather than take the lane a few cars back and then (surprise!) find themselves vulnerable to left-turning cars so go forward through the lights.

The Rookie

If a car is at the front of the queue and you stop at the whiteline you are still well in front of the driver if he's not over the line, if he's over the line then stop just behind him and follow him off, do it near enough every day and really don't see an issue with that, safe, legal. If it's a van or lorry/bus at the front then stay behind.

philwi

As a motorist, rule-breaking cyclists are more at risk from me than I am from them. When I cycle, bad cyclists are a serious collision risk to me: if I hit them at 20mph I will be badly hurt.

Rule breakers in cars *or* on bikes are hazards to the rest of us. Statistically cars are overall more dangerous, but I don't think you can isolate one specific form of transport and try to solve the problem from there.

Most of the red light jumpers around here are useless cyclists - trivial to pass within 100m of the lights, and usually ignorant of the light sequences. If you want to ride fast and efficiently, then learn to do that.

sandhun

Well it's pleasing to see that the vast majority of people on here seem pretty sensible and that they respect the rules of the road.

I spent a little bit of time observing opinions towards cyclists online (mainly on Twitter). It seems that there is a LOT of hatred towards cyclists. Most of it is for the following reasons:

1. They think cyclists jump red lights. Everyone hears about cyclist deaths/accidents and people make the assumption that it happens because they jump red lights. Whether or not there's some truth in this, I do not know. Unfortunately there has been a recent high profile case in which a red light jumping cyclist killed another person http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/jul/ ... nslaughter

2. They think cyclists alternate between roads and pavements

3. They think cyclists should stick to cycle paths and be off the roads

4. They think cyclists slow them down

5. They think cyclists should pay road tax (despite the fact the fee the people pay for cars is an emssions tax. Roads are funded by local taxes such as council tax).

daddy0

I stop at reds almost all of the time. However, I had a trip up to London on my bike on Friday after work. I was meeting a friend from out of town at Liverpool Street, but I got there early and his train was delayed so I had some time to kill. I rode along the north side of the Thames and round a couple of parks - I stopped at all the red lights, however I did see between 5 and 10 black cabs and a couple of posh cars jump red lights - as did half the cyclists I saw, which in my opinion it was safe for them to do so. It got crazy when I got to Liverpool Street - the roads were gridlocked, it was hot, the exhaust fumes were disgusting, and none of the road users were taking any notice of any lights. Cyclists were zipping in and out of all the gaps available to them. My friend and I decided "when in Rome" and joined in the RLJing. As soon as we got to London Bridge we could breath and the traffic was flowing normally, so the RLJing stopped.

awavey

but I cant help feel London in is just a bad example to use, I mean youll get beeped or revved at, usually by taxis, the nanosecond the light changes (made worse by those quicker LED light changes) from red to red-amber, theres none of this wait for green marlarkey to let all the other light jumpers through first its like the F1 lights,the lights are red, they change and its go go go !!!

and I can spend all day arguing with my colleagues at work that not all cyclists jump red lights and we are really nice people and not at all like those idiots the tv cameras always seem to find to interview. and then on the way home I get not one but two of these idiots reinforcing all the negatives of at least 3 of those 4 anti cyclist twitter rants.

I saw two cyclists, who werent riding together, just happened to be on the same idiot wavelength ran one set of crossroad lights, forced aload of cars to suddenly heave a few foot to the right to allow them space, and then actually carried on straight through a set of roadworks on red too and met the traffic coming the other way head on :shock: at which point they hopped on the pavement and carried on their merry way oblivous to the near carnage they had just caused.

the only plus point was they got a right mouthful off another cyclist coming the other way in the roadworks who I think left them in no doubt they were very much in the wrong.

BigLights

I totally agree with your points Sandhun. It's a perception/prejudice thing. I have had 2 demonstration instances in the last 24 hours....one was an RLJer on CS7, white van next to me was all 'you effin self pleasurers, you all run red lights' etc. I looked at him, then looked around. There must have been a good 30 bikes crammed into the ASJ, cycle lane, behind cars etc, waiting....But drivers suffer from an extreme confirmation bias and only ever see the rule breakers. C'est lavie.

In the same way that we seem to view all bus drivers as hateful homicidal maniacs. To be fair, you have to be of that mindset to ensure you're prepared for strange moves, but actually if you think about it the majority of buses, at least in my experience, are driven pretty well. But you only see the standout aggressive maneuvres.

On the way home last light, the light changed while I was approaching it, to green that is, so I cycled through...couple of middle aged ladies were ambling across the road (holding up traffice i'd add), shouted at me 'watch the lights'...'erm, it's green ladies'....

jonomc4

In terms of jumping red lights I find the pedestrians in London worse offender of all - I have lost count of the times I have had to emergency stop from people going across pedestrian crossings on red - in heavy traffic you don't see them. I recently had to slam the brakes on only for a nodder (hate the term - but he was) to rear end me.

Did a post on it in my blog - for those that are bored and want a read - I know call them the Lemming Pedestrians.

http://ukmambo.blogspot.co.uk/

Headhuunter

sandhun wrote:

Well it's pleasing to see that the vast majority of people on here seem pretty sensible and that they respect the rules of the road.

I spent a little bit of time observing opinions towards cyclists online (mainly on Twitter). It seems that there is a LOT of hatred towards cyclists. Most of it is for the following reasons:

1. They think cyclists jump red lights. Everyone hears about cyclist deaths/accidents and people make the assumption that it happens because they jump red lights. Whether or not there's some truth in this, I do not know. Unfortunately there has been a recent high profile case in which a red light jumping cyclist killed another person http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2013/jul/ ... nslaughter

2. They think cyclists alternate between roads and pavements

3. They think cyclists should stick to cycle paths and be off the roads

4. They think cyclists slow them down

5. They think cyclists should pay road tax (despite the fact the fee the people pay for cars is an emssions tax. Roads are funded by local taxes such as council tax).

How about some opinions from cyclists on "motorists":

1. They all drive without insurance or MOT
2. They all speed
3. Most of them drink drive and kill people
4. They all drive with 1 hand on the wheel 1 hand clamping a mobile to an ear
5. Most of them have illegally tinted side windows restricting their view of what's around them
6. Most of them drive illegally on provisional licenses
etc etc etc

Personally I don't really care what 1 perceived collective of road users - "motorists" think of another perceived collective of road users "cyclists". As a cyclist I have nothing in particular in common with any other cyclist other than that I am on a bike, just as when I'm driving I am simply a bloke in a car not a "motorist" somehow in cahoots with every other car driver on the road... I think "motorists" need to pay more attention to what goes on in their own camp before casting aspersions about other road users and since when did "cyclists" have to prove themselves to "motorists"? We are all using roads which we have all paid for and have equal rights to....

rolf_f

Headhuunter wrote:

How about some opinions from cyclists on "motorists":

1. They all drive without insurance or MOT
2. They all speed
3. Most of them drink drive and kill people
4. They all drive with 1 hand on the wheel 1 hand clamping a mobile to an ear
5. Most of them have illegally tinted side windows restricting their view of what's around them
6. Most of them drive illegally on provisional licenses
etc etc etc

Sandhuns observations probably have some truth amongst a fairly significant group of motorists. I'd be surprised if any sane cyclist really held the opinions in your list. It is relevant - the perception that we all RLJ etc is what gives drivers a misguided justification to treat us badly. We don't have to 'prove ourselves to motorists' but if we do then a few less of us might get killed by them.

Headhuunter

Rolf F wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

How about some opinions from cyclists on "motorists":

1. They all drive without insurance or MOT
2. They all speed
3. Most of them drink drive and kill people
4. They all drive with 1 hand on the wheel 1 hand clamping a mobile to an ear
5. Most of them have illegally tinted side windows restricting their view of what's around them
6. Most of them drive illegally on provisional licenses
etc etc etc

Sandhuns observations probably have some truth amongst a fairly significant group of motorists. I'd be surprised if any sane cyclist really held the opinions in your list. It is relevant - the perception that we all RLJ etc is what gives drivers a misguided justification to treat us badly. We don't have to 'prove ourselves to motorists' but if we do then a few less of us might get killed by them.

I made my points to illustrate how ridiculous the broad generalisations made about cyclists are not to genuinely show what I felt "all motorists" actually do on the road. I was just illustrating that these generalisations do not help anyone and I personally don't feel the need to prove that I am not guilty of them... AFAIC, if I have to somehow prove that I don't RLJ or cycle on the pavement and ride like the Pope with a halo at all times, then motorists need to drive this way too. All I'm saying is that before other road users cast aspersions and generalise about cyclists' behaviour, perhaps they should look closer to home at their own faults

pbkclements

Reasons why we should never ever take safety and life for granted. Cyclists are more vulnerable than motorists, but without care, cyclists can cause similar heartbreaking catastrophes. My thoughts with those concerned.

http://www.thisisdorset.net/news/tidnew ... y_injured/

squired

An alternative to jumping lights is to get off your bike and walk/jog across the junction with your bike at your side. It is something I've been doing for a while. In fact, on Friday evening I even got complimented by a police motorcyclist for doing it (pulled up alongside me as I was cycling and said "I like it, I like it"). At some junctions it can save a significant amount of time, but is totally legal (and safe). Often there is a long pedestrian phase, so you can get across very easily.

dilemna

EssieP wrote:

sandhun wrote:

Just seen this comment posted on another thread:
Jumping lights and failing to adhere to the rules gives all cyclists a bad name
- PLEASE don't do it!

No it does not.
You are wrong about this, I do not have a bad name because of the bahaviour of cyclists in a city far from here. In fact, I do not have a bad name at all. :!:

22 posts in 8 years. :shock:

davis

BigLights wrote:

On the way home last light, the light changed while I was approaching it, to green that is, so I cycled through...couple of middle aged ladies were ambling across the road (holding up traffice i'd add), shouted at me 'watch the lights'...'erm, it's green ladies'....

You were wrong to go through the lights (green though they were) while there were people still crossing the road.

Headhuunter

davis wrote:

BigLights wrote:

On the way home last light, the light changed while I was approaching it, to green that is, so I cycled through...couple of middle aged ladies were ambling across the road (holding up traffice i'd add), shouted at me 'watch the lights'...'erm, it's green ladies'....

You were wrong to go through the lights (green though they were) while there were people still crossing the road.

Rubbish... If they've started to cross the road without looking at the lights properly that's their problem. I'm not saying you should mow them down but if you don't pay attention to traffic and traffic lights it's only a matter of time before you get hit by something.

This is 1 of my pet peeves in London - the constant lemming behaviour of pedestrians crossing when the red man is showing and traffic has got a green light. Most likely these are the same peds who then comment about how they saw a cyclist mow down an old lady on the pavement blah, blah, blah on articles about cyclists on the Evening Standard website ...

Since cycling in London I am no longer surprised that so many pedestrians are killed on London roads every year... Some people must literally be blind or stupid or both....