Domestic cats and wildlife...

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Comments

  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Ironic that the OP and others are getting sentimental over wild birds. A couple of hundred years ago they would have been regarded as food and he would have been eating them himself.
    He would perhaps be complaining of cats eating his dinner. :lol:
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    My OP wasn't sentimental... If ickle biddy baby birds get eaten for food then that's just the way it is. I was frustrated at the random killing instinct of some domestic cats for sport and the inability of their owners to have the slightest regard for their little darlings, where they are and what they are up to when they are wiping out local wildlife and crapping all over my lawn... Subtle difference methinks
  • shortcuts
    shortcuts Posts: 366
    Mikey23 wrote:
    My OP wasn't sentimental... If ickle biddy baby birds get eaten for food then that's just the way it is. I was frustrated at the random killing instinct of some domestic cats for sport and the inability of their owners to have the slightest regard for their little darlings, where they are and what they are up to when they are wiping out local wildlife and crapping all over my lawn... Subtle difference methinks
    I can fully relate to this. Never seen the point to cats personally. Little b'stards!
  • twist83
    twist83 Posts: 761
    You will find the vast majority of the Animal Kingdom have individuals who will hunt for 'Sport' humans included. You will get overtly aggressive animals who will kill for killing sake. I would wager you probably have at least one friend/family member who may hunt or has hunted. Are they also savages for doing this?

    The recent bear program highlighted that sometimes animals do just kill.

    I personally love cats but agree they can be little savages but that is how they are, hunting is programmed in them just like it is us, but we have the brain power and capacity to supress this (Most of us do!) as we have food sources elsewhere. Granted cats do as well however they just know they should hunt.

    I feel a few people are getting uptight about the loss of a few birds. Seems a lot of effort gets put into protecting a few birds people have a vested interest in for whatever reason.

    Do you ensure every piece of meat you eat comes from a source where the animal does not suffer? I doubt that very much but out of sight and out of mind....
  • twist83
    twist83 Posts: 761
    shortcuts wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    My OP wasn't sentimental... If ickle biddy baby birds get eaten for food then that's just the way it is. I was frustrated at the random killing instinct of some domestic cats for sport and the inability of their owners to have the slightest regard for their little darlings, where they are and what they are up to when they are wiping out local wildlife and crapping all over my lawn... Subtle difference methinks
    I can fully relate to this. Never seen the point to cats personally. Little b'stards!

    Using this basis there is also no real point to keeping ANY animal as a pet other than for work reasons. Gun dogs, Sight dogs, Bomb dogs etc.

    Freedom to do so is good enough reason alone.
  • SuperStella
    SuperStella Posts: 3
    goonz wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    Genuine question - why can't cats generally be kept indoors? I have plenty of friends with indoor-only cats - what do people who live in flats with cats do?

    Cats naturally need to roam and need space so keeping them at home can be deemed unfair and cruel.

    I rescued my cat from a shelter and they put so much emphasis on the amount of space and whether you have a garden and access to one. If you do not they will not allow you to adopt a cat that has been used to the outdoors. In this instance we could only adopt a kitten that have always been indoor only.

    All shelters will make these checks, its only inconsiderate pet owners that buy cats directly from breeders or pet shops who do not care where the cat has been or how it has been kept.

    Have had a lot of cats and only 1 or 2 of them seemed that bothered about going out doors. The ones I had from kittens - from very reputable pet shop which even my animal activist partner approved of - never went out for long, usually only when i went out and usually never further than a few feet from the front door. Even when we installed a cat flap they didn;t seem to use it except as access to the sunny spot just outside the front door.

    Of the cats that didn't take as indoors cats, one of them escaped through the chimney!! - we re-homed them appropriately.
  • shortcuts
    shortcuts Posts: 366
    twist83 wrote:
    shortcuts wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    My OP wasn't sentimental... If ickle biddy baby birds get eaten for food then that's just the way it is. I was frustrated at the random killing instinct of some domestic cats for sport and the inability of their owners to have the slightest regard for their little darlings, where they are and what they are up to when they are wiping out local wildlife and crapping all over my lawn... Subtle difference methinks
    I can fully relate to this. Never seen the point to cats personally. Little b'stards!

    Using this basis there is also no real point to keeping ANY animal as a pet other than for work reasons. Gun dogs, Sight dogs, Bomb dogs etc.
    Absolutely correct in my view :lol:
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    twist83 wrote:
    You will find the vast majority of the Animal Kingdom have individuals who will hunt for 'Sport' humans included. You will get overtly aggressive animals who will kill for killing sake. I would wager you probably have at least one friend/family member who may hunt or has hunted. Are they also savages for doing this?

    The recent bear program highlighted that sometimes animals do just kill.

    I personally love cats but agree they can be little savages but that is how they are, hunting is programmed in them just like it is us, but we have the brain power and capacity to supress this (Most of us do!) as we have food sources elsewhere. Granted cats do as well however they just know they should hunt.

    I feel a few people are getting uptight about the loss of a few birds. Seems a lot of effort gets put into protecting a few birds people have a vested interest in for whatever reason.

    Do you ensure every piece of meat you eat comes from a source where the animal does not suffer? I doubt that very much but out of sight and out of mind....

    The only difference being, cats are not subject to the same checks and balances as wildlife, i.e. they are pretty much guaranteed food and shelter thanks to their owners. So their numbers are artificially high and their impact on their prey correspondingly so.
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  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    What!! No pets?
    Where would the inspiration for Sylvester and Tweetie Pie come from? Not to mention Tom and Jerry.
    Robert Stroud wouldn't have his place in history and we would have been robbed of a great Burt Lancaster film.
  • adamfo
    adamfo Posts: 763
    Cats are essential where I live in the sticks. I know from experience that rats quickly take over. Just a few cats patrolling a garden or farm and the rats are smart enough to move out.
    The European wildcat is the native species in England but is now extinct here. Luckily for us the Romans bought over Persian breeds.
    The recent Horizon program about the patrol area of village cats showed how limited their range really is. The amount of mammals taken as prey is tiny given the overall numbers. For example, one breeding pair of barn owls catch up to 3000 small rodents a year.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,495
    But barn owls are an indigenous species and therefore form part of the UK's natural food chain. Cats aren't and don't.

    8,000,000 cats in the UK don't need to kill very often to make a significant impact on our birds and small mammals. If only half of these killed just once per week there would be over 200 million of our indigenous birds and small mammals dead . . . hardly "tiny".

    I don't necessarily disagree with using cats for pest control but it should be just that. Controlled.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    We have Ugandan teenagers staying with us from time to time when the pearl of Africa children's choir are touring. They are quite amazed that we keep animals as pets and not to be eaten. These guys generally have meat twice a year usually chicken on Christmas Day and Easter Day. They seem pretty healthy on it to
  • Wunnunda
    Wunnunda Posts: 214
    So many cats....so few recipes.... :?
  • shortcuts
    shortcuts Posts: 366
    Wunnunda wrote:
    So many cats....so few recipes.... :?
    Love it :lol:
  • adamfo
    adamfo Posts: 763
    laurentian wrote:
    But barn owls are an indigenous species

    So are cats. This one lived in England from the end of the last ice age right up to the end of the 18th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

    Regarding bird catches I think it's fewer than you think. I see the remains of rodents in my garden. Only one cat munches through the whole mouse head and tail included. Seldom do I find any bird remains. I've seen one pigeon taken which had a gamy leg and one pheasant in 22 years.
    The 50 cats in the Horizon programme (with access to gardens, fields and woodland) caught in one week a mole! A rabbit, a pile of rodents and a few birds.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,495
    adamfo wrote:
    laurentian wrote:
    But barn owls are an indigenous species

    So are cats. This one lived in England from the end of the last ice age right up to the end of the 18th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wildcat

    Regarding bird catches I think it's fewer than you think. I see the remains of rodents in my garden. Only one cat munches through the whole mouse head and tail included. Seldom do I find any bird remains. I've seen one pigeon taken which had a gamy leg and one pheasant in 22 years.
    The 50 cats in the Horizon programme (with access to gardens, fields and woodland) caught in one week a mole! A rabbit, a pile of rodents and a few birds.

    No problem with native wildcats - at all. I would love to see one doing its thang. Its is a top of the food chain predator who's numbers are regulated by the abundance of its prey. The problem is with domestic (persian) cats that are effectively "subsidised" by their owners feeding them letting them roam without control.

    I think (nb think) that the programme on cats or the lady who was on the radio that commissioned the study quoted that 40% of the cats in their survey killed whilst being studied.

    " . . . a pile of rodents and a few birds" in one week. 50 cats. I think that kind of reinforces the point. Lets say the "pile of rodents" amounted to 15 and the "few birds" to 5. That's over 1000 of our native species, killed by a non-native predator in one village by a fraction of that village's cat population in one year.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    I think the point was made in the prog that they could only count based on the bits that remained. Obviously what has been eaten and what has been left dead or dying in situ is unquantifiable
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    I'm not going to read all 9 pages, so apologies if this has been done before:

    Put some orange peel into blender, chop it up into tiny, tiny pieces and then scatter it around your garden. Like washing your hair, this needs to be repeated on a monthly basis.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Nope, not been mentioned before ... Sounds interesting
  • Phil Fouracre
    Phil Fouracre Posts: 207
    Sounds interesting! Even better, put the cat in the blender!!
  • SpainSte
    SpainSte Posts: 181
    laurentian wrote:
    But barn owls are an indigenous species and therefore form part of the UK's natural food chain. Cats aren't and don't.

    8,000,000 cats in the UK don't need to kill very often to make a significant impact on our birds and small mammals. If only half of these killed just once per week there would be over 200 million of our indigenous birds and small mammals dead . . . hardly "tiny".

    I don't necessarily disagree with using cats for pest control but it should be just that. Controlled.


    There is no evidence that domestic cats have had a major impact in the numbers of mammals etc in the UK. The horizon programme stated pretty much the same, that it was inconclusive.

    The programme also highlighted the ratio of cats to prey. In the study there were 50 cats, only 20 prey items were recorded for the 50 in a week. So less than half a prey item per cat per week.

    Hardly the genocidal murderous devil spawn that some would have us believe.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    As stated above, that was based on the evidence found ie left over bits. Not including stuff completely eaten or killed and left in situ
  • SpainSte
    SpainSte Posts: 181
    Mikey23 wrote:
    As stated above, that was based on the evidence found ie left over bits. Not including stuff completely eaten or killed and left in situ


    Not quite.


    The owners of the cats took 15 carcasses to the researchers that the cats had brought back and owners reported a further 5 (in total) animals that had been consumed in front of them before the owner could retrieve it.

    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills, this is further backed up by a study by Paul Leyhausen ("Cat Behavior") which explains the machanism within the cat that makes this happen, therefore we can safely assume that the vast majority of kills are returned home to be delivered or eaten by the cat. Meaning therefore that the evidence shown in the study on the Horizon program is correct (within a reasonable margin of error), which further supports my post above.
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    SpainSte wrote:
    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills

    How do the owners know, if the cats have left them behind or eaten them?
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  • SpainSte
    SpainSte Posts: 181
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills

    How do the owners know, if the cats have left them behind or eaten them?


    You should read the study I highlighted in previous post if your really interested in the answer.
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    SpainSte wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills

    How do the owners know, if the cats have left them behind or eaten them?


    You should read the study I highlighted in previous post if your really interested in the answer.

    I couldn't give a rat's arse about the study, I'm interested in this sweeping 'any cat owner will tell you' statement, since most cat owners that let their cats out don't have the slightest clue what their pets get up to.
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  • SpainSte
    SpainSte Posts: 181
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills

    How do the owners know, if the cats have left them behind or eaten them?


    You should read the study I highlighted in previous post if your really interested in the answer.

    I couldn't give a rat's ars* about the study, I'm interested in this sweeping 'any cat owner will tell you' statement, since most cat owners that let their cats out don't have the slightest clue what their pets get up to.


    The study provides the evidence to back up the statement dear friend. Perhaps if you took the time to read, you might enlighten yourself rather than make such statements yourself "since most cat owners that let their cats out don't have the slightest clue what their pets get up to".
  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    SpainSte wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    DesWeller wrote:
    SpainSte wrote:
    Cat often dont leave dead items in situ, as any cat owner will tell you, cats return home with thir kills

    How do the owners know, if the cats have left them behind or eaten them?


    You should read the study I highlighted in previous post if your really interested in the answer.

    I couldn't give a rat's ars* about the study, I'm interested in this sweeping 'any cat owner will tell you' statement, since most cat owners that let their cats out don't have the slightest clue what their pets get up to.


    The study provides the evidence to back up the statement dear friend. Perhaps if you took the time to read, you might enlighten yourself rather than make such statements yourself "since most cat owners that let their cats out don't have the slightest clue what their pets get up to".

    :lol::lol:
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  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Never let facts and evidence get in the way of a good rant...

    Being the OP can you repeat the link to the study as I'm not sure what is being referred to... Sorry to be thick!
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Grub's up!

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