Domestic cats and wildlife...

DesB3rd

Casseroling is far too much like trouble - you'd have to pluck them. Slit down the breast bone, peel the skin aside, cut out the breasts and throw the rest to the cat...

team47b

you all eat meat, what's the problem?

Catserole 'em

bompington

goonz wrote:

dont think you can take away a cats instincts from it

Oh, I think you can...

seanoconn

team47b wrote:

you all eat meat, what's the problem?

Catserole 'em

Trust the vegetarian to throw the cat among the pigeons :roll:

laurentian

goonz wrote:

Not equally repulsive, i admit not best worded at all.

I dont have speciesism, I care for all animals just dont think you can take away a cats instincts from it. Its part of nature, but I have no issue with neutering cats to keep the population under control. Dogs also have the instinct to hunt etc but I draw the line when its humans they turn on.

I agree - you can't take away the cat's instinct . . . and therein lies the problem. It makes no difference to a vole or a fledgling meadow pipit whether the population is under control or not when the controlled population follow their instincts.

BUT it is most definitely NOT "nature" in the UK.

The domestic cat is not an indigenous species. Sparrowhawks, snakes, foxes, badgers, buzzards, herons, pine martens and the native (scottish) wild cat are all examples of indigenous species and the result of their predatory actions IS nature.

A cat jumps over the wall into my mates garden, my mates dog (roaming freely within the confines of his owners property) catches said cat and injures it . . . guess which pet is the bad guy?

If people want to keep cats, I can live with it, but they should not be allowed to roam freely and kill, should be licensed and their owners be accountable for their pet's actions. Same as dogs.

I would rather their phased removal from our environment. This would not take any existing cats away from their owners, it would just mean that they could not be replaced once deceased.

pinno

Nigh on impossible to eradicate cats and for what reason ? Although I like cats, I do acknowledge the fact that they are walking environmental disasters. In their natural environment, Scottish Wildcats occupy hugh areas. The problem is, urban areas have disproportionately high numbers fo cats per square KM.
In urban areas, many bird species are doing well due to the fact that people are feeding them. Indeed, urban areas have better densitites of certain bird varieties than in the country.
So there is a number of factors here:
Too many cats
Too many stray cats
Years of intensive agriculture/pesticides/dwindling habitat affecting bird populations rurally.
Lack of community ?!!

We love our pets in the UK 'cos people have become isolated. A huge percentage of over 65's live alone. So whats the problem here - the cats, or the lack of community spirit and the dispersal of families for economic/social reasons, the North/south divide, the break up of family which was replaced by the nuclear familly and now replaced by disfunctional and uncohesive existences ?

bompington

pinarello001 wrote:

In their natural environment, Scottish Wildcats occupy hugh areas

Actually they don't. According to some estimates the number of pure wildcats is in low double digits - out-competed, outbred and hybridised with, yes, the humble domestic moggy.
Or what about

scientists wrote:

Feral cats on islands are responsible for at least 14% global bird, mammal and reptile extinctions

secretsam

Mikey23 wrote:

So why do people keep domestic cats and do they know or care what savage killing machines they are when the little darlings are out of sight?

Now, I got into trouble with a thread about horses being a pest, surely this rant about cats doing what comes naturally to them deserves some of the vitriol that was directed at me?!?!?!?!

Anyway - our cat killed a bird in the kitchen last week, in front of me. So they don't just do it out of sight.

It's their nature. They are killers. Sorry if it distresses you but there's no more chance of you preventing the cat doing it than of me getting my wish to convert all horses into lasagne

bompington

SecretSam wrote:

Mikey23 wrote:

Anyway - our cat killed a bird in the kitchen last week, in front of me. So they don't just do it out of sight.
It's their nature. They are killers. Sorry if it distresses you but there's no more chance of you preventing the cat doing it than of me getting my wish to convert all horses into lasagne

You're not listening...

pinno

bompington wrote:

pinarello001 wrote:

In their natural environment, Scottish Wildcats occupy hugh areas

Actually they don't. According to some estimates the number of pure wildcats is in low double digits - out-competed, outbred and hybridised with, yes, the humble domestic moggy.
Or what about

scientists wrote:

Feral cats on islands are responsible for at least 14% global bird, mammal and reptile extinctions

I agree. However, in natural conditions, cat density is very low. The conditions here mean that the conditions are un-natural.
The possum in NZ has decimated owls and other creatures not used to predators. The cat in essence is the same - non-native and invasive.

Pituophis

laurentian wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

Laurentian appears to be calling for a change to the law and the right to kill others pets and does not appear to understand the difference between cats and dogs currently held within the law. I would not mind a law that allows me to shoot Laurentian for being within 10 yards of me. Intolerance breeds intolerance.

I don't think you can argue that domestic cats are not an introduced species that predates on our indigenous wildlife.

All I would like to see is that the same restrictions apply to cats as currently apply to dogs.

Dogs are not allowed to roam if not under control. Dogs can be shot if they are worrying farm animals and otherwise destroyed if they are proved to be a nuisance or if stray. Dogs must be walked on a lead. Dog sh!t must be picked up . . . all of these controls and yet and dogs do not independently predate on our native species.

I'm all in favour of re introducing the wild cat, lynx, wolf and bear, all native to this country, but others disagree, preferring cats? :roll:
I would like to see the restrictions that apply to dogs...apply to dogs. They are not native to this country either in any of their present forms! And all the banned breeds are evident in increasing numbers in our inner cities, with seemingly no threat from the authorities
Dogs seem to be predating the native humans increasingly in this country, but mention it and a flurry of dog lovers will tell you it's the owners fault, and not the dogs????? (If you blame the deed not the breed, the dog still did it in my book :shock: )
Dog sh!t must be picked up? You are having a laugh there :evil: And at least cat owners don't tie it in bags then throw it into the nearest tree to be preserved for eternity.

I don't own a cat, and I wouldn't say I was a "cat lover" as the fur tickles my b*lls.
But one thing is for certain, there's no group of pet owners more biased and deluded that dog lovers

hangeron

goonz wrote:

Us breeding and killing baby cows for venison is much more cruel than what the cat does. .

genetic engineering has gone too far :shock:

laurentian

Pituophis wrote:

laurentian wrote:

bdu98252 wrote:

Laurentian appears to be calling for a change to the law and the right to kill others pets and does not appear to understand the difference between cats and dogs currently held within the law. I would not mind a law that allows me to shoot Laurentian for being within 10 yards of me. Intolerance breeds intolerance.

I don't think you can argue that domestic cats are not an introduced species that predates on our indigenous wildlife.

All I would like to see is that the same restrictions apply to cats as currently apply to dogs.

Dogs are not allowed to roam if not under control. Dogs can be shot if they are worrying farm animals and otherwise destroyed if they are proved to be a nuisance or if stray. Dogs must be walked on a lead. Dog sh!t must be picked up . . . all of these controls and yet and dogs do not independently predate on our native species.

I'm all in favour of re introducing the wild cat, lynx, wolf and bear, all native to this country, but others disagree, preferring cats? :roll:
I would like to see the restrictions that apply to dogs...apply to dogs. They are not native to this country either in any of their present forms! And all the banned breeds are evident in increasing numbers in our inner cities, with seemingly no threat from the authorities
Dogs seem to be predating the native humans increasingly in this country, but mention it and a flurry of dog lovers will tell you it's the owners fault, and not the dogs????? (If you blame the deed not the breed, the dog still did it in my book :shock: )
Dog sh!t must be picked up? You are having a laugh there :evil: And at least cat owners don't tie it in bags then throw it into the nearest tree to be preserved for eternity.

I don't own a cat, and I wouldn't say I was a "cat lover" as the fur tickles my b*lls.
But one thing is for certain, there's no group of pet owners more biased and deluded that dog lovers

The point I'm trying to make is that there are laws that control dogs and I agree that they are not always adhered to but they can and should be enforced. Yes, transgression of these laws is the owners fault - its irresponsible ownership. Cats have no such restrictions and they should have - I have yet to see a good argument to say that they shouldn't be.

Dogs, in some guises, are not native to this country but they do not predate on our native species - at least not without human intervention (eg hunting where, weirdly, I can see conservation benefits ) when they are trained to do so and, again, are (or should be) licensed to do so.

Of course habitat is another major issue regarding all wildlife but, in a country where is scarce and shrinking, how is uncontrolled cat proliferation justifiable?

Ben6899

laurentian wrote:

sungod wrote:

plenty of birds kill insects, other birds, mammals, reptiles, fish etc.

that is nature, it doesn't discrminate in favour of the cute and/or fluffy

cats are doing what they evolved to do

projecting human emotions/values on them, or birds, is delusional

The difference is that the cat is a non-native, uncontrolled predator on our indigenous birds and small mammals whereas what you describe is, indeed, nature. It has nothing to do with projecting human emotions or the anthropomorphising of animals.

Imagine if there were no cats in this country and some bright spark approached the government or whoever and said that they would like to introduce a non-native species to the UK that is allowed to roam (and defecate!) wherever it wanted with impunity, would kill our native small mammals and birds with no redress, would be allowed to breed with no checks or balances and that does not require any kind of licence, checks or balances to own?

I would like to think that even the most bovine of our legislature would see the problem with it and not let it happen.

In all seriousness, I would like to see immediate licensing of cats and the requirement for them to wear a collar or microchip. Any found not to have one would be destroyed in the same way that stray dogs are. Their free movement should be controlled to within the secure boundary of the owner, otherwise they should be walked on leads and the owners obliged to pick up and dispose of their faeces in the same way that dog owners do. Any found to be trespassing on another's property could be legally trapped or shot (as per dogs on farmland now).

I would also prohibit breeding of them in the hope that in 20 or so years we are rid of the murderous vermin.

Is there some text missing?

sungod

DesWeller wrote:

sungod wrote:

plenty of birds kill insects, other birds, mammals, reptiles, fish etc.

that is nature, it doesn't discrminate in favour of the cute and/or fluffy

cats are doing what they evolved to do

projecting human emotions/values on them, or birds, is delusional

Except wild animals kill for food and form part of the ecosystem they occupy.

Domestic cats are not subject to predators or environmental conditions, so they have a disproportionate effect on their environment.

NB They did not evolve, they were bred.

nb breeding == evolution

sungod

laurentian wrote:

<...>
The difference is that the cat is a non-native, uncontrolled predator on our indigenous birds and small mammals whereas what you describe is, indeed, nature. It has nothing to do with projecting human emotions or the anthropomorphising of animals.
<...>

all species were at one time non-native, including humans, who are responsible for far more destruction

the rest of your post is so barking it's not worth responding to

Mikey23

Oorerr... 11/6d that's 57.5p I believe in that new fangled money... Much cheaper than the water pistol option methinks

desweller

sungod wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

sungod wrote:

plenty of birds kill insects, other birds, mammals, reptiles, fish etc.

that is nature, it doesn't discrminate in favour of the cute and/or fluffy

cats are doing what they evolved to do

projecting human emotions/values on them, or birds, is delusional

Except wild animals kill for food and form part of the ecosystem they occupy.

Domestic cats are not subject to predators or environmental conditions, so they have a disproportionate effect on their environment.

NB They did not evolve, they were bred.

nb breeding == evolution

Environmental selection of favourable mutation == evolution

Artificial selection of genetic traits == breeding != evolution

nickyboy zz

SecretSam wrote:

Mikey23 wrote:

So why do people keep domestic cats and do they know or care what savage killing machines they are when the little darlings are out of sight?

Now, I got into trouble with a thread about horses being a pest, surely this rant about cats doing what comes naturally to them deserves some of the vitriol that was directed at me?!?!?!?!

Anyway - our cat killed a bird in the kitchen last week, in front of me. So they don't just do it out of sight.

It's their nature. They are killers. Sorry if it distresses you but there's no more chance of you preventing the cat doing it than of me getting my wish to convert all horses into lasagne

The problem is twofold:

1) The density of pet cats is, I believe, about 7 times that which could be naturally sustained based on available prey. So this puts huge pressure on birds, small mammals

2) Owners could reduce their cat's effectiveness as hunters by fitting a bell

Nothing practically you can do about (1) but plenty that responsible cat owners could do about (2)

neilco

This worries you enough to sustain replies through three pages of posts? Really?

I've got a cat. Despite being well fed he eats birds, mice, even pigeons, whatever he can catch. Probably two or three a week, maybe more. Thats what they do. Before he eats them he tends to 'play' with them. Sure, he's a sadistic little thing, but there's still loads of birds around where I live despite his best efforts. The worst thing is the parent blackbird which constantly sings in our garden from sun up to sun down to bemoan the fact that Lucky took its two kids. Oh well.

Neil

PS - sometimes I kill things lower down the food chain too. Just this evening I killed a fly. Sorry.

PPS - problems of the 1st world, eh?

ballysmate

neilco wrote:

This worries you enough to sustain replies through three pages of posts? Really?

I've got a cat. Despite being well fed he eats birds, mice, even pigeons, whatever he can catch. Probably two or three a week, maybe more. Thats what they do. Before he eats them he tends to 'play' with them. Sure, he's a sadistic little thing, but there's still loads of birds around where I live despite his best efforts. The worst thing is the parent blackbird which constantly sings in our garden from sun up to sun down to bemoan the fact that Lucky took its two kids. Oh well.

Neil

PS - sometimes I kill things lower down the food chain too. Just this evening I killed a fly. Sorry.

PPS - problems of the 1st world, eh?

I don't think it overly worries people. Folks just like talking shite.

Pituophis

Cats were selectively bred by humans in the same way dogs were, to serve a useful function of catching vermin in and around human habitation. We altered them to be smaller and people tollerant, while retaining the instinct to catch smaller creatures. That's what we wanted them to be :roll:

Now maybe there is a case to be answered, where by as they are only pets now, perhaps we should do away with them.
If this is the case, we will have to get rid of all dogs with the exception of working sheep dogs and those owned by the police/forces/guide dogs/customs & excise. All terriers will have to go, as hunting with dogs is now illegal, so we have no use for them. Pet dogs are right out.
In fact, all pets must go as keeping them is unnatural :shock:

Cats don't kill people, dogs do though (and rappers, obviously :oops: )

nickyboy zz

neilco wrote:

This worries you enough to sustain replies through three pages of posts? Really?

I've got a cat. Despite being well fed he eats birds, mice, even pigeons, whatever he can catch. Probably two or three a week, maybe more. Thats what they do. Before he eats them he tends to 'play' with them. Sure, he's a sadistic little thing, but there's still loads of birds around where I live despite his best efforts. The worst thing is the parent blackbird which constantly sings in our garden from sun up to sun down to bemoan the fact that Lucky took its two kids. Oh well.

Neil

PS - sometimes I kill things lower down the food chain too. Just this evening I killed a fly. Sorry.

PPS - problems of the 1st world, eh?

100% agree that it is hardwired into a cat to do this. I would appreciate your comment, as a cat owner, on the following:

I presume there are ways for a cat owner to make the cat a less effective hunter. Such as a bell on its collar or whatever. Do you think this is a good idea? If you don't think it is a good idea then why not?

As a non-cat owner my logic is that the cat is already well fed so doesn't need to kill to survive. I like birds so if I could stop my cat killing some birds that would be a good thing. Or am I missing something?

Mikey23

prog about the secret life of the domestic cat tonight 9pm horizon bbc2... 49 cats in a village were fitted with camera and gps and tracked to find out what they actually get up to. should be interesting. some evidence about what they do get up to.

was OP was a tad emotional because i was involved but over it now. there is still one baby trying hard to make it to adulthood and i have fenced off the obvious stalking point in my garden.i have no prob with domestic mogs per se and i fully accept there are more important things to deal with in life. cats do seem to be pets for idiots.. low maintenance, dump them out and have no idea what they are up to and take no responsibility for them

@neilco.. i find your post somewhat chilling however. i hope you and lucky have a good life in copenhagen

desweller

Pituophis wrote:

Cats were selectively bred by humans in the same way dogs were, to serve a useful function of catching vermin in and around human habitation. We altered them to be smaller and people tollerant, while retaining the instinct to catch smaller creatures. That's what we wanted them to be :roll:

Now maybe there is a case to be answered, where by as they are only pets now, perhaps we should do away with them.
If this is the case, we will have to get rid of all dogs with the exception of working sheep dogs and those owned by the police/forces/guide dogs/customs & excise. All terriers will have to go, as hunting with dogs is now illegal, so we have no use for them. Pet dogs are right out.
In fact, all pets must go as keeping them is unnatural :shock:

Cats don't kill people, dogs do though (and rappers, obviously :oops: )

I've no problem with people keeping cats. I only have a problem with their being allowed out with no control. I don't see why they can't be kept indoors.

simonhead

Mikey23 wrote:

prog about the secret life of the domestic cat tonight 9pm horizon bbc2... 49 cats in a village were fitted with camera and gps and tracked to find out what they actually get up to. should be interesting. some evidence about what they do get up to.

was OP was a tad emotional because i was involved but over it now. there is still one baby trying hard to make it to adulthood and i have fenced off the obvious stalking point in my garden.i have no prob with domestic mogs per se and i fully accept there are more important things to deal with in life. cats do seem to be pets for idiots.. low maintenance, dump them out and have no idea what they are up to and take no responsibility for them

@neilco.. i find your post somewhat chilling however. i hope you and lucky have a good life in copenhagen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22567526 worth watching the video on the cat Orlando

verylonglegs

I couldn't leave my kitchen windows open in the summer without a neighbours cat thinking it was an invitation to pop in and have a look round. As they seemed to have little interest in controlling it I felt well within my rights to 'persuade' it that it wasn't welcome.

bompington

Mikey23 wrote:

@neilco.. i find your post somewhat chilling however.

Well known that cruelty to animals is a strong marker for psychopathic tendencies.

Mikey23

Must remember to strike Copenhagen of my list of holiday destinations then :-)

Wondering if springwatch is big in Denmark...

ballysmate

Some cats kill some birds. Sad but there it is.
Some people get upset by this. but there it is.
People have said that cats are not indigenous to UK. I think there were cats of some description living wild in this country long before man decided to domesticate them for pest control. The vast majority of today's cats though are kept as pets and not primarily for pest control.
If people are going to use the argument that you can only keep indigenous animals, I think it would be cool to have domesticated pine martens.
People feed birds in their gardens, helping to artificially inflate the populations. But this is ok because they are cute little dickie birds. They seem to be given preferential treatment to other types of vermin such as mice, rats and squirrels. Yes, vermin. Some birds are regarded as vermin by gardeners and people who have to clean up bird droppings.
As I said, birds seem to be set apart because of their cuteness, but even within the bird world, some birds are more equal than others. Think blue tit v magpie for example.
Why are people so shocked that because they create better breeding conditions for songbirds, a predator takes advantage. Not just cats, but the likes of magpies, whose population has benefited from all those fresh eggs and new born chicks.