Domestic cats and wildlife...
Comments
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nickyboy zz wrote:
I will do my best to find the reference. My understanding was that pet cats are present at a density approximately 7x that which would naturally be the case. I take your point that pet cats may or may not be "hunters". However, in the spirit of you asking me for proof of my statements please provide references to the following:
1) Large numbers of cats getting their collars caught
2) Proportions of cats which actively hunt
All of these studies support my argument, or the points in disagreement with your argument:
Trueman 1991; Paton 1991, 1993; Barratt 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998
"While it is undeniable that both feral cats and owned domestic cats prey on native wildlife, evidence
that this is a threat to the viability of wildlife populations is contentious, particularly in the suburbs."
Grayson and Calver (grayson@central.murdoch.edu.au).
Regarding the % of cats that hunt, or the effectiveness of hunting cats.
"Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor & Fabio Bontadina"
Quote:
"The frequency distribution of the numbers of prey items was markedly skewed: 16% of the cats accounted for 75% of prey, irrespective of sex, age or breed"
Another interesting quote from this study:
"In contrast, prey species on continental landmasses have co-evolved with domestic cats over hundreds of generations and have thus been considered little susceptible to this hunter for decades (Churcher
and Lawton 1987)."
http://www.ny-petrescue.org/catcollar.php
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local- ... ar-4274154
There are countless other link, surely you dont need me to copy them all for you, google is your friend.0 -
Wunnunda wrote:SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Cats cover their sh1t? Well I grant they make the effort. And sometimes they even make the effort while managing not to put soil and compost on the path/lawn.
Get stuff from somewhere to spray/spread on the garden? Apart from the fact that most of it disappears with the first half decent rainfall, I have to spend my money on chemical weapons to pollute my garden so someone else can have an indulgence they can't be bothered to manage? Great.
My really point is not the cat but the fact that people that own them are at worst wilfully negligent and, at best selfishly indifferent to the impact their little darling(s) has/have on others.
This stuff is herbal, non chemical and the rain helps to ingrain it in the soil and so prevent the need to re add it so regularly. Its all very modern these days you know, you should look it up.
How do you define " wilfully negligent"? What are you expectations of cat owners? Should cats be followed so that their droppings can be collected by the owner? Presumably then you wouldn't have a problem with someone going into your garden, either whilst your there or not, in order to clean the mess and therefore complete what you believe to be their duty?
The owners should keep their toy in it's box (and that is all they are - a toy) and not let make my life inconvenient. What genocidal acts the animal-loving owners chose to let Tibbles get up to their own back yard is between them and their conscience.
No-one has a right to let their pet roam free like that. Simple. We've made that step for dogs, just need to do the same for cats.
Oh - and -edit- herbal, non chemical (though presumably bio-chemical?) and modern...great, sounds wonderful....is it free?
"genocidal" - its always good to keep things in perspective.....0 -
...and the day that cyclists sh1t in front gardens they'd have a valid point (for oncenatrix wrote:Wunnunda wrote:The owners should keep their toy in it's box (and that is all they are - a toy) and not let make my life inconvenient.
Just what car owners would say about cyclists
complete with the poor grammar!! 
)
(Mind you, I'd expect a proper cyclist to dig a hole and bury it first)0 -
SpainSte wrote:nickyboy zz wrote:
I will do my best to find the reference. My understanding was that pet cats are present at a density approximately 7x that which would naturally be the case. I take your point that pet cats may or may not be "hunters". However, in the spirit of you asking me for proof of my statements please provide references to the following:
1) Large numbers of cats getting their collars caught
2) Proportions of cats which actively hunt
All of these studies support my argument, or the points in disagreement with your argument:
Trueman 1991; Paton 1991, 1993; Barratt 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998
"While it is undeniable that both feral cats and owned domestic cats prey on native wildlife, evidence
that this is a threat to the viability of wildlife populations is contentious, particularly in the suburbs."
Grayson and Calver (grayson@central.murdoch.edu.au).
Regarding the % of cats that hunt, or the effectiveness of hunting cats.
"Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor & Fabio Bontadina"
Quote:
"The frequency distribution of the numbers of prey items was markedly skewed: 16% of the cats accounted for 75% of prey, irrespective of sex, age or breed"
Another interesting quote from this study:
"In contrast, prey species on continental landmasses have co-evolved with domestic cats over hundreds of generations and have thus been considered little susceptible to this hunter for decades (Churcher
and Lawton 1987)."
http://www.ny-petrescue.org/catcollar.php
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local- ... ar-4274154
There are countless other link, surely you dont need me to copy them all for you, google is your friend.
Thank you for the links.
Excuse my paraphrasing but it seems we definitely have a lot more cats that would naturally exist but there are some that hunt much more than others. But I guess identifying which is which is not possible?
There are studies suggesting little impact on prey species, equally there are studies suggesting significant impact on prey species so there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this matter
Collars seemed like a good solution (on the basis there is a problem) but I can understand cat owners being unwilling to fit one if they worry about it injuring their cat
So on the basis that cats may be impacting prey species (the jury appears to be out on that one) what do you suggest could be done to manage this problem? I hope it isn't nothing0 -
SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Cats cover their sh1t? Well I grant they make the effort. And sometimes they even make the effort while managing not to put soil and compost on the path/lawn.
Get stuff from somewhere to spray/spread on the garden? Apart from the fact that most of it disappears with the first half decent rainfall, I have to spend my money on chemical weapons to pollute my garden so someone else can have an indulgence they can't be bothered to manage? Great.
My really point is not the cat but the fact that people that own them are at worst wilfully negligent and, at best selfishly indifferent to the impact their little darling(s) has/have on others.
This stuff is herbal, non chemical and the rain helps to ingrain it in the soil and so prevent the need to re add it so regularly. Its all very modern these days you know, you should look it up.
How do you define " wilfully negligent"? What are you expectations of cat owners? Should cats be followed so that their droppings can be collected by the owner? Presumably then you wouldn't have a problem with someone going into your garden, either whilst your there or not, in order to clean the mess and therefore complete what you believe to be their duty?
The owners should keep their toy in it's box (and that is all they are - a toy) and not let make my life inconvenient. What genocidal acts the animal-loving owners chose to let Tibbles get up to their own back yard is between them and their conscience.
No-one has a right to let their pet roam free like that. Simple. We've made that step for dogs, just need to do the same for cats.
Oh - and -edit- herbal, non chemical (though presumably bio-chemical?) and modern...great, sounds wonderful....is it free?
"genocidal" - its always good to keep things in perspective.....
OK - murderous then. Better?0 -
Giraffoto wrote:SpainSte wrote:How do you define " wilfully negligent"? What are you expectations of cat owners? Should cats be followed so that their droppings can be collected by the owner? Presumably then you wouldn't have a problem with someone going into your garden, either whilst your there or not, in order to clean the mess and therefore complete what you believe to be their duty?
1. Leave precise definitions to the lawmakers, but "knowing that something will happen unless you act, and choosing not to act" is what we're talking about here, and probably fits the definition. Something being their cat cr@pping on someone else's property
2., 3. and 4. Yep, make it the owner's responsibility to make sure they don't trespass. So the owner doesn't have to follow them or clean up after them.
If you have chosen (no one forced you to get a cat/dog/monkey etc.) to get a pet, there should be some presumption of responsibility to stop it causing damage, trespassing, annoying other people or damaging wildlife. It should not be up to other people to accommodate your whims.
Do you not take responsibility for what happens when you're on your bike? Do you just ride where you like and expect everyone else to put up with you? Or do you follow the rules that exist to protect not just you, but non-cyclists?natrix wrote:Just what car owners would say about cyclists
We choose to ride bikes. I don't expect special treatment for it (lucky, that
), don't trespass, take care not to cause damage when I'm riding. When we make a choice, we assume responsibility for its consequences.
Cats trespassing....whatever next.
I believe that your expectations are unrealistic and unworkable and any application of these suggestions would be unenforceable.0 -
Blimey is this what you guys really talk about at your cake stops? Surprised any cycling gets done! Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
Specialized Langster SS for Ease
Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
n+1 is well and truly on track
Strava http://app.strava.com/athletes/16088750 -
nickyboy zz wrote:SpainSte wrote:nickyboy zz wrote:
I will do my best to find the reference. My understanding was that pet cats are present at a density approximately 7x that which would naturally be the case. I take your point that pet cats may or may not be "hunters". However, in the spirit of you asking me for proof of my statements please provide references to the following:
1) Large numbers of cats getting their collars caught
2) Proportions of cats which actively hunt
All of these studies support my argument, or the points in disagreement with your argument:
Trueman 1991; Paton 1991, 1993; Barratt 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998
"While it is undeniable that both feral cats and owned domestic cats prey on native wildlife, evidence
that this is a threat to the viability of wildlife populations is contentious, particularly in the suburbs."
Grayson and Calver (grayson@central.murdoch.edu.au).
Regarding the % of cats that hunt, or the effectiveness of hunting cats.
"Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor & Fabio Bontadina"
Quote:
"The frequency distribution of the numbers of prey items was markedly skewed: 16% of the cats accounted for 75% of prey, irrespective of sex, age or breed"
Another interesting quote from this study:
"In contrast, prey species on continental landmasses have co-evolved with domestic cats over hundreds of generations and have thus been considered little susceptible to this hunter for decades (Churcher
and Lawton 1987)."
http://www.ny-petrescue.org/catcollar.php
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local- ... ar-4274154
There are countless other link, surely you dont need me to copy them all for you, google is your friend.
Thank you for the links.
Excuse my paraphrasing but it seems we definitely have a lot more cats that would naturally exist but there are some that hunt much more than others. But I guess identifying which is which is not possible?
There are studies suggesting little impact on prey species, equally there are studies suggesting significant impact on prey species so there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this matter
Collars seemed like a good solution (on the basis there is a problem) but I can understand cat owners being unwilling to fit one if they worry about it injuring their cat
So on the basis that cats may be impacting prey species (the jury appears to be out on that one) what do you suggest could be done to manage this problem? I hope it isn't nothing
No problem, I'm happy to engage in a proper dicussion about anything. I should point out that I'm not particular a cat lover or anything, I have a dog
Well based on your last sentence, which shows the issue we have "cats may be impacting", "the jury appears to be out" - I dont know if there is actually a problem.
If there is.....well I honestly don't know the answer, having not studied it.
I do not agree with the "keep your toy in it's box" argument, or the "your cat is tresspassing" rubbish raised in an earlier posts by other people, I believe cats should be able to roam reasonably freely and I do feel there is a massive difference between cats and dogs in terms of whether they should be allowed out on their own, off a lead or whatever.
If it were conclusively proven one way or the other, I think that probably the best method of control is a liscencing type situation, like we used to have for dogs. Perhaps all owned domestic cats could be neutered or something and only authorised breeders could breed their cats to be sold to general public. But again, I'm not 100% convinced that there is a problem in the first place, I am yet to be convinced.
Regarding this point:
"Excuse my paraphrasing but it seems we definitely have a lot more cats that would naturally exist but there are some that hunt much more than others. But I guess identifying which is which is not possible?"
The study I copied a bit of earlier (Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor &
Fabio Bontadina; "Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village") is actually pretty interesting regarding this particular point. The study showed that by tracking what the animals brought back (assuming that not all catches are returned) it was possible to determine the most prolific hunters.0 -
But it is possible for the owner of an uncontrolled pet to be held accountable. And, in case you still haven't realised, for me it's the owners that are the problem here.0
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Wunnunda wrote:But it is possible for the owner of an uncontrolled pet to be held accountable. And, in case you still haven't realised, for me it's the owners that are the problem here.
But as I said, it isnt possible for a cat to murder a bird, or any other animal so there would be nothing to hold the owner to account for.0 -
SpainSte wrote:No problem, I'm happy to engage in a proper dicussion about anything. I should point out that I'm not particular a cat lover or anything, I have a dog
Well based on your last sentence, which shows the issue we have "cats may be impacting", "the jury appears to be out" - I dont know if there is actually a problem.
If there is.....well I honestly don't know the answer, having not studied it.
I do not agree with the "keep your toy in it's box" argument, or the "your cat is tresspassing" rubbish raised in an earlier posts by other people, I believe cats should be able to roam reasonably freely and I do feel there is a massive difference between cats and dogs in terms of whether they should be allowed out on their own, off a lead or whatever.
If it were conclusively proven one way or the other, I think that probably the best method of control is a liscencing type situation, like we used to have for dogs. Perhaps all owned domestic cats could be neutered or something and only authorised breeders could breed their cats to be sold to general public. But again, I'm not 100% convinced that there is a problem in the first place, I am yet to be convinced.
Regarding this point:
"Excuse my paraphrasing but it seems we definitely have a lot more cats that would naturally exist but there are some that hunt much more than others. But I guess identifying which is which is not possible?"
The study I copied a bit of earlier (Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor &
Fabio Bontadina; "Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village") is actually pretty interesting regarding this particular point. The study showed that by tracking what the animals brought back (assuming that not all catches are returned) it was possible to determine the most prolific hunters.
I think if anyone really had a think about using legislation to deal with this problem (on the basis there is a problem
) then they would see that it won't work. Too many cats, too many owners, too long a history of no regulation. Daily Mail readers would be up in arms...vote loser...etc.etc
I think the only way is to win hearts and minds of cat owners. I would guess most cat owners are pretty empathetic to birds (just more empathetic to their cats) so it is a winnable argument. I think a licensing system is too cumbersome
How about some cheap device that your cat could wear/have implanted that would scare birds but wouldn't present a risk to the cat?0 -
People not being accountable for the consequences of their lifestyle choices? An interesting idea.0
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Wunnunda wrote:People not being accountable for the consequences of their lifestyle choices? An interesting idea.
If your not reading my posts whats the point?
It is not possible for a cat to murder a bird or any other animal - there is therefore nothing to hold the owners to account for.0 -
nickyboy zz wrote:SpainSte wrote:No problem, I'm happy to engage in a proper dicussion about anything. I should point out that I'm not particular a cat lover or anything, I have a dog
Well based on your last sentence, which shows the issue we have "cats may be impacting", "the jury appears to be out" - I dont know if there is actually a problem.
If there is.....well I honestly don't know the answer, having not studied it.
I do not agree with the "keep your toy in it's box" argument, or the "your cat is tresspassing" rubbish raised in an earlier posts by other people, I believe cats should be able to roam reasonably freely and I do feel there is a massive difference between cats and dogs in terms of whether they should be allowed out on their own, off a lead or whatever.
If it were conclusively proven one way or the other, I think that probably the best method of control is a liscencing type situation, like we used to have for dogs. Perhaps all owned domestic cats could be neutered or something and only authorised breeders could breed their cats to be sold to general public. But again, I'm not 100% convinced that there is a problem in the first place, I am yet to be convinced.
Regarding this point:
"Excuse my paraphrasing but it seems we definitely have a lot more cats that would naturally exist but there are some that hunt much more than others. But I guess identifying which is which is not possible?"
The study I copied a bit of earlier (Britta Tschanz & Daniel Hegglin & Sandra Gloor &
Fabio Bontadina; "Hunters and non-hunters: skewed predation rate by domestic cats in a rural village") is actually pretty interesting regarding this particular point. The study showed that by tracking what the animals brought back (assuming that not all catches are returned) it was possible to determine the most prolific hunters.
I think if anyone really had a think about using legislation to deal with this problem (on the basis there is a problem ) then they would see that it won't work. Too many cats, too many owners, too long a history of no regulation. Daily Mail readers would be up in arms...vote loser...etc.etc
I think the only way is to win hearts and minds of cat owners. I would guess most cat owners are pretty empathetic to birds (just more empathetic to their cats) so it is a winnable argument. I think a licensing system is too cumbersome
How about some cheap device that your cat could wear/have implanted that would scare birds but wouldn't present a risk to the cat?
I agree with your point, if it were decided there were a problem, then I do feel the legislation wouldn't work, your right, for the reasons you stated.
Your probably right about the licencing too, that was just something I thought about in the 5 mins I was typing the reply - although.....it could be a money maker for the government, so could be a winner
Not sure about the devices, I don't know how it would be possible to fit something to the animal that would fulfill what was required of it, but at the smae time would pose no risk to the cat. I wouldnt go down the implant route - I think that would probably lose any goodwill amongst cat owners, so is a non starter.0 -
SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:People not being accountable for the consequences of their lifestyle choices? An interesting idea.
If your not reading my posts whats the point?
It is not possible for a cat to murder a bird or any other animal - there is therefore nothing to hold the owners to account for.
And as I said earlier - what happens in their own garden is between them and their animal-loving conscience. Just keep them undercontrol. It's not a lot to ask. It's how we all co-exist : tolerance and consideration for others.0 -
Could easily be done. Just not convenient to do it. After all, if they were kept in a pen, or confined to a space then the owners would HAVE to clean after them. Instead of letting them use the world (or at least my little bit of it :laugh: ) as a toilet0
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Wunnunda wrote:SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:People not being accountable for the consequences of their lifestyle choices? An interesting idea.
If your not reading my posts whats the point?
It is not possible for a cat to murder a bird or any other animal - there is therefore nothing to hold the owners to account for.
And as I said earlier - what happens in their own garden is between them and their animal-loving conscience. Just keep them undercontrol. It's not a lot to ask. It's how we all co-exist : tolerance and consideration for others.
Funny you cite tolerance....and yet wish charge cats with trespass....interesting.0 -
Wunnunda wrote:Could easily be done. Just not convenient to do it. After all, if they were kept in a pen, or confined to a space then the owners would HAVE to clean after them. Instead of letting them use the world (or at least my little bit of it :laugh: ) as a toilet
Yes...keeping cats in pens. Great idea. You should get out in the real world sometimes!0 -
Some people on here just sound pretty grumpy and bitter.Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
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Sorry - just have a problem with the idea that I have to accept that one type of four-legged pet to sh1t in my garden while for another type of four-legged pet to do it is considered wrong. As I said - what they do in their space is nothing to do with me.0
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Happens all the time with show cats, and cat shelters, and with cat breeders, and catteries. I know there isn't a cat's (!) chance in hell it'll ever be done. Cat owners are far to much like their pets to care.SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Could easily be done. Just not convenient to do it. After all, if they were kept in a pen, or confined to a space then the owners would HAVE to clean after them. Instead of letting them use the world (or at least my little bit of it :laugh: ) as a toilet
Yes...keeping cats in pens. Great idea. You should get out in the real world sometimes!0 -
Wunnunda wrote:
Happens all the time with show cats, and cat shelters, and with cat breeders, and catteries. I know there isn't a cat's (!) chance in hell it'll ever be done. Cat owners are far to much like their pets to care.SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Could easily be done. Just not convenient to do it. After all, if they were kept in a pen, or confined to a space then the owners would HAVE to clean after them. Instead of letting them use the world (or at least my little bit of it :laugh: ) as a toilet
Yes...keeping cats in pens. Great idea. You should get out in the real world sometimes!
Seriously? Thats the argument? So because elephants are kept in a cage in a circus or zoo means they should be kept in a cage elsewhere too?Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
Specialized Langster SS for Ease
Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
n+1 is well and truly on track
Strava http://app.strava.com/athletes/16088750 -
Errrm...you're thinking about all those people who keep elephants as pets ? Well OK lets go with that. Safari parks are the closest I can think of and yes, they are penned, albeit in a suitably big enclosure. Which is fair enough.goonz wrote:Wunnunda wrote:
Happens all the time with show cats, and cat shelters, and with cat breeders, and catteries. I know there isn't a cat's (!) chance in hell it'll ever be done. Cat owners are far to much like their pets to care.SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Could easily be done. Just not convenient to do it. After all, if they were kept in a pen, or confined to a space then the owners would HAVE to clean after them. Instead of letting them use the world (or at least my little bit of it :laugh: ) as a toilet
Yes...keeping cats in pens. Great idea. You should get out in the real world sometimes!
Seriously? Thats the argument? So because elephants are kept in a cage in a circus or zoo means they should be kept in a cage elsewhere too?0 -
Wunnunda wrote:Sorry - just have a problem with the idea that I have to accept that one type of four-legged pet to sh1t in my garden while for another type of four-legged pet to do it is considered wrong. As I said - what they do in their space is nothing to do with me.
So you expect everyone to tolerate you, but you won't tolerate anyone/thing else. Nice.
You obviously have a problem with a certain local cat visiting your garden. Why dont you simply pop round to the owsers and tell them calmly that their cat is ruining your garden with its waste and that you would like to get some safe, non-chemical treatment that will prevent the cat from using your garden, you could even take photos as evidence to show them, that stuff I referred to earlier cost less than £4, ask them to chip in, or buy it. Be a bit more social instad of arbitrarily insisting that all cats be kept in rediculous pens, you know, live some of that tolerace and consideration of others you were preaching about earlier.
All the examples you cite ref cat pens are temporary situations and are not permanent homing solutions.0 -
SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Sorry - just have a problem with the idea that I have to accept that one type of four-legged pet to sh1t in my garden while for another type of four-legged pet to do it is considered wrong. As I said - what they do in their space is nothing to do with me.
So you expect everyone to tolerate you, but you won't tolerate anyone/thing else. Nice.
You obviously have a problem with a certain local cat visiting your garden. Why dont you simply pop round to the owsers and tell them calmly that their cat is ruining your garden with its waste and that you would like to get some safe, non-chemical treatment that will prevent the cat from using your garden, you could even take photos as evidence to show them, that stuff I referred to earlier cost less than £4, ask them to chip in, or buy it. Be a bit more social instad of arbitrarily insisting that all cats be kept in rediculous pens, you know, live some of that tolerace and consideration of others you were preaching about earlier.
All the examples you cite ref cat pens are temporary situations and are not permanent homing solutions.
Or leave them a flaming bag of poopLife isnt like a box of chocolates, its like a bag of pic n mix.0 -
SpainSte wrote:Wunnunda wrote:Sorry - just have a problem with the idea that I have to accept that one type of four-legged pet to sh1t in my garden while for another type of four-legged pet to do it is considered wrong. As I said - what they do in their space is nothing to do with me.
So you expect everyone to tolerate you, but you won't tolerate anyone/thing else. Nice.
Where did i say this - I repeat - what they do in their own space is their problem - I DON'T CARE.
I was brought up to consider every action I take in terms of the effect it has on others. Still do, still am. Just want others to do the same for me.
You obviously have a problem with a certain local cat visiting your garden. Why dont you simply pop round to the owsers and tell them calmly that their cat is ruining your garden with its waste and that you would like to get some safe, non-chemical treatment that will prevent the cat from using your garden, you could even take photos as evidence to show them, that stuff I referred to earlier cost less than £4, ask them to chip in, or buy it. Be a bit more social instad of arbitrarily insisting that all cats be kept in rediculous pens, you know, live some of that tolerace and consideration of others you were preaching about earlier.
Eight (8) cats - 5 owners
Why should I have to make the effort? Why I do I have to be the one to run round after them?
All the examples you cite ref cat pens are temporary situations and are not permanent homing solutions.
I have no idea why cat's have special status in this way. It's very odd.0
