Tour de France 2013 - Race Chat

Richmond Racer

The big question is whether we'll see the Shack vying for the right to wear those chuffing Team classification helmets through to the finish. Apart from a glorious do-or-die effort from Jens on a couple of stages, that's about your lot.

rickyrider

Jens Voigt - 41 - racing TDF. Freaking incredible.

Le Commentateur

Some very dramatic flash floods have been causing damage in the Tourmalet/Lourdes area yesterday and today, washing sections of roads away. I wonder if this will affect the race route – haven't got a map of it at the moment.

http://www.lasemainedespyrenees.fr/arti ... --7-h/5492






Road to Tourmalet:


Lourdes:

FJS

gpreeves wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Saxo
Michael Rogers, Roman Kreuziger, Nicolas Roche, Matteo Tosatto, Daniele Bennati, Sergio Paulinho, Alberto Contador, Jesus Hernandez, and Benjamin Noval.

Very strong mountain team for Saxo.

Excellent team for Saxo, possibly the first time they've turned up to the Tour without a Dane in the squad?

As I said earlier, Contador will have more support in the mountains than Froome

frenchfighter

Contador goes into the race as one of the favourites along with Team Sky's Chris Froome and the Denmark-based squad have opted to go into the race without a rider from their home nation.

On Sky news. Pretty much sums up the mentality of the nation. Its about teams not nations.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador goes into the race as one of the favourites along with Team Sky's Chris Froome and the Denmark-based squad have opted to go into the race without a rider from their home nation.

On Sky news. Pretty much sums up the mentality of the nation. Its about teams not nations.

It's very unusual though and certainly worthy of comment. It's hard to think of a precedent other than teams of unclear nationality (eg HTC & Cervelo)

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador goes into the race as one of the favourites along with Team Sky's Chris Froome and the Denmark-based squad have opted to go into the race without a rider from their home nation.

On Sky news. Pretty much sums up the mentality of the nation. Its about teams not nations.

It's very unusual though and certainly worthy of comment. It's hard to think of a precedent other than teams of unclear nationality (eg HTC & Cervelo)

Would the French not have the same attitudes, in particular with regard the TDF?

Giving wildcard places to French teams, the desire for a French winner, a French winner on Bastille Day?

Turfle

frenchfighter.
frenchfighter.
frenchfighter.

FJS

Blanco going to the TdF without a Dutch rider would be a very big deal; unthinkable really with Rabobank

Turfle

Cycling is extremely nationalistic. The idea that Sky news were the only people to mention Saxo not having a Danish rider on their team is just as ludicrous as the vast majority of frenchfighter's posts.

gpreeves

Turfle wrote:

Cycling is extremely nationalistic. The idea that Sky news were the only people to mention Saxo not having a Danish rider on their team is just as ludicrous as the vast majority of frenchfighter's posts.

Exactly. Haven't looked elsewhere but Cycling News highlighted it - "It will be the first time the Danish team hasn't included a rider from its home country since the 2007 Tour de France, and the team's owner Bjarne Riis struggled with the selections"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-well-supported-on-saxo-tinkoff-tour-de-france-squad

frenchfighter

Fair point Rich to a certain extent, but the fact that I wouldnt know off the top of my head is because it is not an issue or pointed out often.

You would have to look at the big budget teams though as often the smaller ones are developed with a more grass roots angle as well as having a sponsor almost exclusively operating in the home country.

Do OPQS take Boonen instead of Cavendish? No they take the guy who is going to win for them. Is Cannondale italian? I thought it was US. Why did they race Nibali at the Giro and Sagan at the Tour? Probably many of these examples.

It is more people in UK going bananas for anything SKY even if their Froomie is acutally a South African. I have and never will support a cycling team or cyclist based on Nationality. I have never been able to understand jingoism etc any how.

tailwindhome

frenchfighter wrote:

Fair point Rich to a certain extent, but the fact that I wouldnt know off the top of my head is because it is not an issue or pointed out often.

You would have to look at the big budget teams though as often the smaller ones are developed with a more grass roots angle as well as having a sponsor almost exclusively operating in the home country.

Do OPQS take Boonen instead of Cavendish? No they take the guy who is going to win for them. Is Cannondale italian? I thought it was US. Why did they race Nibali at the Giro and Sagan at the Tour? Probably many of these examples.

It is more people in UK going bananas for anything SKY even if their Froomie is acutally a South African. I have and never will support a cycling team or cyclist based on Nationality. I have never been able to understand jingoism etc any how.

You're trying to shoehorn facts into an argument there, rather than constructing your argument based on facts.

Anyway the key point is there will be 2 Irishmen starting (I presume Martin will start). I'm sure it's been a while since that happened....

thomthom

Riis is getting quite a fair bit of stick for the selection here. Especially because an overweight Benjamin Noval has, somehow, managed to get a ticket instead of the legendary Chris Anker.

But this is no surprise. The only thing that's Danish about this team is the License. Riis does f*ck all for Danish development and this is just another example of that. Absolutely pathethic.

gpreeves

frenchfighter wrote:

Do OPQS take Boonen instead of Cavendish? No they take the guy who is going to win for them. Is Cannondale italian? I thought it was US. Why did they race Nibali at the Giro and Sagan at the Tour? Probably many of these examples.

The point of interest isn't that Saxo don't have a Danish leader, it's that they haven't taken a single Danish rider to the Tour for the first time since sponsoring the team. You're absolutely right to say that some teams have a more nationalistic slant (imagine Euskaltel, Blanco/Rabo or Katusha without a single Spanish, Dutch or Russian rider), but it's rare to see a team not even making a token nod towards their sponsor's country of origin.

Also, although Canondale are a US company the team is based in Italy and have an Italian GM (Amadio).

Richmond Racer

ThomThom wrote:

Riis is getting quite a fair bit of stick for the selection here. Especially because an overweight Benjamin Noval has, somehow, managed to get a ticket instead of the legendary Chris Anker.

But this is no surprise. The only thing that's Danish about this team is the License. Riis does f*ck all for Danish development and this is just another example of that. Pathethic.

I'm neither Danish nor am Iiving in Daneland, but still...^This.

tailwindhome

Alongside Roche, the team features some strong men in the shape of Michael Rogers, Roman Kreuziger, Matteo Tosatto, Daniele Bennati, Sergio Paulinho, Jesus Hernandez and Benjamin Noval

Decent looking team there, no?

tailwindhome

Schleck will be joined by a number of strong riders, including crowd favourite Jens Voigt, Andreas Klöden, Haimar Zubeldia, Maxime Monfort, Laurent Didier, Tony Gallopin, Markel Irizar and Jan Bakelands. Missing will be Fabian Cancellara, who already said he didn’t intend doing the race as he hopes to become world road race champion later this year, and Schleck’s currently-suspended brother Frank.

TheBigBean

frenchfighter wrote:

Fair point Rich to a certain extent, but the fact that I wouldnt know off the top of my head is because it is not an issue or pointed out often.

You would have to look at the big budget teams though as often the smaller ones are developed with a more grass roots angle as well as having a sponsor almost exclusively operating in the home country.

Do OPQS take Boonen instead of Cavendish? No they take the guy who is going to win for them. Is Cannondale italian? I thought it was US. Why did they race Nibali at the Giro and Sagan at the Tour? Probably many of these examples.

It is more people in UK going bananas for anything SKY even if their Froomie is acutally a South African. I have and never will support a cycling team or cyclist based on Nationality. I have never been able to understand jingoism etc any how.

I have no greater like of jingosim than you, but I think a lot of it can be explained by history and economics. Sponsors of trade teams have often been economically focused on one particular country, and even with globalisation, this is still true. The reason people like Sean Kelly speak so many languages is that every time he changed teams he had to learn a new language - that was cycling's historic structure: each team represented a country.

Now a team like Saxo Bank can bring in lots of big names to raise its profile, but if it is trying to sell services to the people of Denmark it may be more successful with a homegrown Danish rider who the population (not cycling fans) can easily get behind. Whilst it would be nice if they chose their riders to support without a national bias, the reality is that many people don't do that. It is therefore an interesting, and unusal, strategy by Saxobank.

Cannondale are not trying to market themselves to the average American on the street - they are targetting cyclists. The best way to do that is by winning races.

My only explanation of OPQS is that Belgium is nation of cycling fans who actually watch the sport, so picking a winner is a good startegy.

thomthom

The 'bad' thing about having Contador on the team is how dull the rest of the riders become. Even if Chris Anker was selected, we wouldn't get to see the epic facial expressions and fighting will for very long as he would get 2 minutes in front of the peloton, if any, to prepare an attack for Alberto. So if that means we will get to see him go crazy in the Vuelta on breakaways or even for a good GC position instead, then I can live with that, actually.

Still, Nicki or Matti instead of that disgraceful rider that is Noval, would have been preferred, imo. (I have nothing against Michael Møkøv but I'm not a fan either. Going into the breakaways that no one wants to be in, is not really an achievement at all).

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

Froomie is acutally a South African.

He sure as hell isn't a Saffer. Kenyan maybe.

Turfle

Are young Danes less likely than before to go with Riis? I know Juul-Jensen went there, but others like Lasse Norman Hansen and Sebastian Lander have notably gone elsewhere. Not a huge sample size, but interesting I think.

thomthom

Turfle wrote:

Are young Danes less likely than before to go with Riis? I know Juul-Jensen went there, but others like Lasse Norman Hansen and Sebastian Lander have notably gone elsewhere. Not a huge sample size, but interesting I think.

They have definitely wised up. Or, some have.. Lander moving BMC is pretty much a failure in the making if you ask me..

Take away the disgraceful Christina Watches- Onfone, a team that destroyed the talented Rasmus Guldhammer's career because the focus was solely on doping convicted riders, there are great deal of continental teams like Blue Water, Cult-Energy and Concordia that form and prepare these riders before the next step up the ladder. They are, especially Michael Skelde, Team Cult Energy, the ones who really should be applauded. Sadly, they don't. Not enough at least.

It seems like it's not as huge to get offered a neo-contract from Riis as it used to be. I mean, the fact that Saxo's development team, Ceramica Flaminia, has precisely 0 Danish riders tells everything about how little they care. And the doping cases have obviously also had an effect..

oneof1982

frenchfighter wrote:

Contador goes into the race as one of the favourites along with Team Sky's Chris Froome and the Denmark-based squad have opted to go into the race without a rider from their home nation.

On Sky news. Pretty much sums up the mentality of the nation. Its about teams not nations.

The TdF has always had a strong national flavour. As late as 1961 "teams" were nations. Keeping up with this tradition, the official records show the riders nationality first, and the team second.

David Brailsford was always very clear that he wanted to establish a "British" team and win the TdF within 5 years. (big thread coming when Porte wins for Sky! Be just like when the Brits were first to climb Everest )

The whole nation thing is reflected at the roadside. Dutch corner on the Alpe? Norweigan corner on the Rue d Rivoli? Basques crowding the Tourmalet?

So in terms of Sky bashing, I'd say this one is a MISS!

frenchfighter

Lets face it, the Danes are not exactly a hotbed of cycling talent so it is not surprising

TheBigBean wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Fair point Rich to a certain extent, but the fact that I wouldnt know off the top of my head is because it is not an issue or pointed out often.

You would have to look at the big budget teams though as often the smaller ones are developed with a more grass roots angle as well as having a sponsor almost exclusively operating in the home country.

Do OPQS take Boonen instead of Cavendish? No they take the guy who is going to win for them. Is Cannondale italian? I thought it was US. Why did they race Nibali at the Giro and Sagan at the Tour? Probably many of these examples.

It is more people in UK going bananas for anything SKY even if their Froomie is acutally a South African. I have and never will support a cycling team or cyclist based on Nationality. I have never been able to understand jingoism etc any how.

I have no greater like of jingosim than you, but I think a lot of it can be explained by history and economics. Sponsors of trade teams have often been economically focused on one particular country, and even with globalisation, this is still true. The reason people like Sean Kelly speak so many languages is that every time he changed teams he had to learn a new language - that was cycling's historic structure: each team represented a country.

Now a team like Saxo Bank can bring in lots of big names to raise its profile, but if it is trying to sell services to the people of Denmark it may be more successful with a homegrown Danish rider who the population (not cycling fans) can easily get behind. Whilst it would be nice if they chose their riders to support without a national bias, the reality is that many people don't do that. It is therefore an interesting, and unusal, strategy by Saxobank.

Cannondale are not trying to market themselves to the average American on the street - they are targetting cyclists. The best way to do that is by winning races.

My only explanation of OPQS is that Belgium is nation of cycling fans who actually watch the sport, so picking a winner is a good startegy.

Definitely agree BB which is why I alluded to that somewhat in my post. At the end of the day sponsors (well almost all) are in the sport to promote their brand and make more money. However I suppose how does a team focusing on country A for most of its sales etc benefit from bringing a rider from country A to a race? Is a British person more likely to buy a product from Sky if the Sky TdF team has a British rider? Don`t know the response to be honest and advertising etc has always been a bit foreign to me as it has zero effect on me.

thomthom

frenchfighter wrote:

Lets face it, the Danes are not exactly a hotbed of cycling talent so it is not surprising

With a population of only 6 million, Denmark sure are a hotbed of cycling talent.

Over one million watched the last climb in the Tour 2011. One million! That's why so many are not happy with this selection.

mike6

Sky might put up the money but they don't put the roster of riders together, or pick the Tour squad, so that's a none argument.
Having a British based and run team can only be good for British riders, assuming there is a development squad to bring promising riders through. Sometimes promising young riders don't get the chance to develop, in smaller teams where results are everything. They can get thrown in, and burned out too young, as cannon fodder for the team leader.
Graham Jones was apparently an example of this.

Is a British person mere likely to buy a product fronSky if there team has a British rider? I would say a big yes to that. Not me, I hate Sky as a company, but there are plenty out there who buy into it and support the "British" team.

Funny how some can claim to have no time for jingoism, then claim Froome is not British. He has a British passport and represented Britain in the Olympics, ergo he is British.

Crankbrother

Saxo's team looks full of guys that know the drill when it doesn't quite go to plan, and we all know it only takes one bad day to win/lose le Tour ... This coupled with Contador also having this advantage over Froome (plus his Spanish pals who know how to race at the sharp end) makes me sure that AC is nailed on to win ...

tailwindhome

frenchfighter wrote:

However I suppose how does a team focusing on country A for most of its sales etc benefit from bringing a rider from country A to a race? Is a British person more likely to buy a product from Sky if the Sky TdF team has a British rider? Don`t know the response to be honest and advertising etc has always been a bit foreign to me as it has zero effect on me.

Team or sponsor?

One would imagine that the sponsor benefits from the extra media coverage in the that country. The Tour being wall to wall in the mainstream British media last year for example.

Would OPQS bring Boonen instead of Cavendish to the Tour, unlikely, however I'm convinced they were more interested in having Boonen on the start line of the spring classics than getting Cavendish to the finish line. If they had no Belgians in the team there would be outrage.

There's a strong argument that the team benefits too - neither Cofidis or Sojasun would be at the Tour if they planned bringing 9 non French riders.

No_Ta_Doctor

ThomThom wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Lets face it, the Danes are not exactly a hotbed of cycling talent so it is not surprising

With a population of only 6 million, Denmark sure are a hotbed of cycling talent.

Over one million watched the last climb in the Tour 2011. One million! That's why so many are not happy with this selection.

Especially when you consider how much publicity they got out of Chris Anker at the tour last year. Tried to chop his own finger off then carried on for 14th place and to win the combativity jersey. I'm quite shocked.