This london hacking attack?

Ben6899

Ballysmate wrote:

Ben, I am not saying you are wrong about some British soldiers, that may be your experience, and you may be in a better position to judge than I, but that has not been my experience.
I have known a fair few squaddies who have served in Afghanistan and before that, Iraq. I have met some who didn't want to go for a variety of understandable reasons, some who enjoyed the buzz and excitement and some who saw it as a way to get out of debt. I have yet to meet one who viewed what they were doing as a crusade. Other serving or ex servicemen on here may be able to shed more light on the idea of a 'crusade'.
I am not saying all British servicemen are angels, far from it. There have been investigations and proof of brutality that says they are not.
You mention tattoos and St George, thus implying that servicemen from Scotland, Wales and Ireland are above such thoughts and deeds. Are Scottish regiments comprised of a different type or calibre of recruit? This brings me to a tangental point.
Why has the English 'Cross of St. George' become synonymous with racism? If anyone sees someone sporting a Saltire tattoo or a Welsh dragon, they don't think 'racist' do they? Why is that?
For the record, I abhor what the EDL and fascists stand for so don't misunderstand me and think that I am in some way defending them.

The same reason the swastika became synonymous with extreme fascism.

daviesee

Ballysmate wrote:

Ben, I am not saying you are wrong about some British soldiers, that may be your experience, and you may be in a better position to judge than I, but that has not been my experience.
I have known a fair few squaddies who have served in Afghanistan and before that, Iraq. I have met some who didn't want to go for a variety of understandable reasons, some who enjoyed the buzz and excitement and some who saw it as a way to get out of debt. I have yet to meet one who viewed what they were doing as a crusade. Other serving or ex servicemen on here may be able to shed more light on the idea of a 'crusade'.
I am not saying all British servicemen are angels, far from it. There have been investigations and proof of brutality that says they are not.
You mention tattoos and St George, thus implying that servicemen from Scotland, Wales and Ireland are above such thoughts and deeds. Are Scottish regiments comprised of a different type or calibre of recruit? This brings me to a tangental point.
Why has the English 'Cross of St. George' become synonymous with racism? If anyone sees someone sporting a Saltire tattoo or a Welsh dragon, they don't think 'racist' do they? Why is that?
For the record, I abhor what the EDL and fascists stand for so don't misunderstand me and think that I am in some way defending them.

I would normally agree with your sentiment but in this specific context the answer is simple.

RDW

Bozman wrote:

RDW wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eague.html

And? Was he a member of he EDL? He's a nutter from another country trying to link himself to a right wing group, the EDL and other English right wing groups pale in to insignificance compared to Muslim fundamentalist groups, it's comical to even compare the two.

I think you'd have to count him as an 'EDL Supporter', having supposedly met and impressed their leaders, and having hundreds of online contacts from the EDL. Interesting that his mad thesis was written in English, under an English name. Of course we seem to attract 'nutters from other countries' here, like Omar Bakri, founder of the Al-Muhajiroun group that the Woolwich murderers were allegedly associated with. Fascism of every kind, political or 'religious', is an international malady. If you want an example of a home-grown EDL-supporting violent extremist, how about:

http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/Mo ... story.html

Nobody died on that occasion, though more by luck than judgement, and the hate-speech was as extreme as anything coming out of Al-Muhajiroun. The EDL didn't exist back in 1999, but it tends to be forgotten that we've already had fatal terrorist attacks by a supporter of far-right parties:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland

None of these killers are typical, of course, and most members of publicly visible extremist organisations in the UK are probably just in it for the shouting and maybe a bit of moderate violence. Only a handful will graduate to the sort of crimes committed by Copeland and the Woolwich killers.

ballysmate

Ben6899 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Ben, I am not saying you are wrong about some British soldiers, that may be your experience, and you may be in a better position to judge than I, but that has not been my experience.
I have known a fair few squaddies who have served in Afghanistan and before that, Iraq. I have met some who didn't want to go for a variety of understandable reasons, some who enjoyed the buzz and excitement and some who saw it as a way to get out of debt. I have yet to meet one who viewed what they were doing as a crusade. Other serving or ex servicemen on here may be able to shed more light on the idea of a 'crusade'.
I am not saying all British servicemen are angels, far from it. There have been investigations and proof of brutality that says they are not.
You mention tattoos and St George, thus implying that servicemen from Scotland, Wales and Ireland are above such thoughts and deeds. Are Scottish regiments comprised of a different type or calibre of recruit? This brings me to a tangental point.
Why has the English 'Cross of St. George' become synonymous with racism? If anyone sees someone sporting a Saltire tattoo or a Welsh dragon, they don't think 'racist' do they? Why is that?
For the record, I abhor what the EDL and fascists stand for so don't misunderstand me and think that I am in some way defending them.

The same reason the swastika became synonymous with extreme fascism.

The swastika was adopted by the Nazi party. The 'Cross of St. George' is the flag of the country of England and has been for centuries.. If I, or anyone else for that matter, choose to fly England's flag or have a tattoo, I don't become a racist do I? That was the point I was making. People and that I assume includes you seem to automatically label people on that basis. If I see a Welshman with a Dragon tattoo, I don't assume that he has a box of matches in his pocket, ready to burn my house down do I?

Frank the tank

ademort wrote:

The attack was surreal, just beyond belief that anyone could do such a thing in broad daylight in London and then hang around waiting for police. As a punishment it would be nice if the police could drive the 2 men once they recover upto Woolwich barracks and just let the Squaddies deal with them.

Couple of weeks ago on the news a gang of school children were sentenced for hacking to death with swords, knives and cleavers a schoolboy from another school gang in a train station in London in broad daylight.

ademort

Frank the tank wrote:

ademort wrote:

The attack was surreal, just beyond belief that anyone could do such a thing in broad daylight in London and then hang around waiting for police. As a punishment it would be nice if the police could drive the 2 men once they recover upto Woolwich barracks and just let the Squaddies deal with them.

Couple of weeks ago on the news a gang of school children were sentenced for hacking to death with swords, knives and cleavers a schoolboy from another school gang in a train station in London in broad daylight.

Frank
I never heard anything about that???

RDW

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19923748

"The teenagers had come prepared with knives and a samurai sword for the clash."

Pross

They didn't hang around to make speeches to camera and wait for the police then try to charge an armed response unit though.

ademort

RDW wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19923748

"The teenagers had come prepared with knives and a samurai sword for the clash."

Christ thats awful, whats the bloody world coming to.
Ademort

ballysmate

Daviesee - I am well aware of the history of the Crusades in the Middle East, but that was nearly a thousand years ago.

But Ben wrote

or the sake of balance (because we're all intelligent here and capable of proper debate), the exact opposite can be attributed to some British soldiers/ex-soldiers/EDL fanboys. I've seen them with St. George tattoos, calling themselves 'crusaders'. FFS, they're as deluded as these two nutters in Woolwich.

My post stated that I had never met any servicemen who felt that they were going on a crusade. You may know differently.

As regards the English flag, it should be reclaimed from being just associated with the far right. English people should be able to show affinity with their national flag and take pride in their country, if they wish, without being branded racists or Nazis. Scots can, Welsh can, Irish can, so why not the English?

daviesee

Ballysmate wrote:

Daviesee - I am well aware of the history of the Crusades in the Middle East, but that was nearly a thousand years ago....

Yeah. See my earlier post on page one.
None of my posts are meant to be inflammatory, just the way I read things.

ballysmate

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Daviesee -
None of my posts are meant to be inflammatory, just the way I read things.

I didn't find it so, mate.
If you thought my reply curt, it wasn't written with that intention. Sorry if you thought it so.

daviesee

Ballysmate wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Daviesee -
None of my posts are meant to be inflammatory, just the way I read things.

I didn't find it so, mate.
If you thought my reply curt, it wasn't written with that intention. Sorry if you thought it so.

More for others who took exception to the earlier post.

seanoconn

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Daviesee -
None of my posts are meant to be inflammatory, just the way I read things.

I didn't find it so, mate.
If you thought my reply curt, it wasn't written with that intention. Sorry if you thought it so.

More for others who took exception to the earlier post.

Get a room :roll:

ballysmate

seanoconn wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Daviesee -
None of my posts are meant to be inflammatory, just the way I read things.

I didn't find it so, mate.
If you thought my reply curt, it wasn't written with that intention. Sorry if you thought it so.

More for others who took exception to the earlier post.

Get a room :roll:

I would, but I'm fearful that he might be a 'giver' and not a 'taker'. OUCH

daviesee

Ballysmate wrote:

I would, but I'm fearful that he might be a 'giver' and not a 'taker'. OUCH

It is better to give than to receive.

daviesee

Ballysmate wrote:

English people should be able to show affinity with their national flag and take pride in their country, if they wish, without being branded racists or Nazis. Scots can, Welsh can, Irish can, so why not the English?

I had another thought........
The Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh have been operating under the command of the UK, ie the British flag so there is little connection internationally to their flags outside the sporting arena.
The Irish and their flag haven't been involved in anything right wing that I can think of. Other problems obviously, along with the British flag but that is another subject.

ballysmate

daviesee wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

English people should be able to show affinity with their national flag and take pride in their country, if they wish, without being branded racists or Nazis. Scots can, Welsh can, Irish can, so why not the English?

I had another thought........
The Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh have been operating under the command of the UK, ie the British flag so there is little connection internationally to their flags outside the sporting arena.
The Irish and their flag haven't been involved in anything right wing that I can think of. Other problems obviously, along with the British flag but that is another subject.

You make a valid point about people abroad finding it difficult to distinguish between English and British, sometimes to the chagrin of the Celtic populace. But even here in England, people have started to associate the English flag with the knuckle dragging thugs of the far right.
I would mention though that England also, as you put it, operates under the command of the UK, and is just an integral part. I do accept though that because of its relative large population, England can be seen as dominating or even domineering.

Ben6899

Stanley222 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

The same reason the swastika became synonymous with extreme fascism.

Seriously!?! :roll:

Which bit aren't you happy with?

The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei adopted the Swastika (an ancient symbol to convey the message of "piece" or "good") to represent everything they stand for. When we see the Swastika nowadays, I'm afraid the first images that come to mind are Hitler, The Holocaust, extreme fascism, skins etc.

Like it or not, the EDL wave the St. George Cross, like it's their own, to convey general messages along the lines of "send 'em back" and "purge the world of Islam".

Tell me I'm wrong. But make sure if you do, you back it up.

I love a good debate, me!

Ben6899

I never said flying the St George Cross makes you extreme or racist automatically.

That used to be the case with the Swastika, but now it's not debatable. The St George Cross is going the same way because of how the EDL and a niche swathe of soldiers use it.

cornerblock

It will only go that way if the majority of decent and proud English people give it up to the morons of the extreme right. Talking as if it's a done deal doesn't help. There are dickheads out there with the Manchester United badge as a tattoo, does that mean all decent United fans should be embarrassed to use the badge? Of course not.

Frank the tank

Pross wrote:

They didn't hang around to make speeches to camera and wait for the police then try to charge an armed response unit though.

That is true, I was just pointing out to Ademort the hideous act although (thankfully) very rare was not unique. Although as you point out the hanging about waiting for the police is unusual.

rick_chasey

Bozman wrote:

I can remember a conversation with a Sikh when I was an apprentice way back in 1984, the subject of Muslims came up and the guy just said, give them an inch and they'll take a mile, they won't stop until they control this country.

Well that settles it. :roll:

rick_chasey

Basically he's a nutter.

Whatever comes out of the mouth of a chap who's just hacked a man he doesn't know to death is just mental guff.

rick_chasey

Probably been posted already, but this chap says it very clearly and concisely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4

As you can see, it's not related to a particular faith. You get mental people in all faiths.

Bozman

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bozman wrote:

I can remember a conversation with a Sikh when I was an apprentice way back in 1984, the subject of Muslims came up and the guy just said, give them an inch and they'll take a mile, they won't stop until they control this country.

Well that settles it. :roll:

It's far from being my point of view, but It rings a bell when you get a radical Muslim putting a boot into the system that they don't agree with.

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

Probably been posted already, but this chap says it very clearly and concisely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4

As you can see, it's not related to a particular faith. You get mental people in all faiths.

True. Very true.
Are you sure that is the same opinion as those who committed the atrocities though?
Witness reports -
"According to ITV News, the man said: “We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.
“The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth.”
He added: “I apologise that women have had to witness this today but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don’t care about you.’’"

That, I think explains it.

rick_chasey

Bozman wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bozman wrote:

I can remember a conversation with a Sikh when I was an apprentice way back in 1984, the subject of Muslims came up and the guy just said, give them an inch and they'll take a mile, they won't stop until they control this country.

Well that settles it. :roll:

It's far from being my point of view, but It rings a bell when you get a radical Muslim putting a boot into the system that they don't agree with.

Where does the chap in my youtube clip fit in?? Hmm?

He's not doing this 'cos he's muslim. There are an awful lot of muslims in the world. Many many millions.

You can't take what a cold blooded brutal murderer says seriously or give it legitimacy because he's caught your attention.His rarationalisation is on a par with the rationalisation of the soham girls murderer. It's beyond abhorrent. Just cos he mentions it everyone's up in arms about society and immigration. Yet we get grusome stuff likd this from whitd Brits here too. That little girl who disappeared and was murdered to name a recent example. That nutter with a gun who Gascoigne tried to help. Etc etc.

People are sometimes mental and do awful things. Judge them for what they do, not what you think theg represent.

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Probably been posted already, but this chap says it very clearly and concisely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00WRRD7Yud4

As you can see, it's not related to a particular faith. You get mental people in all faiths.

True. Very true.
Are you sure that is the same opinion as those who committed the atrocities though?
Witness reports -
"According to ITV News, the man said: “We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you.
“The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth.”
He added: “I apologise that women have had to witness this today but in our land our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don’t care about you.’’"

That, I think explains it.

Explains what?

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

Explains what?

The motive for what happened on the day in question.