This london hacking attack?

smoggysteve

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

Don't they keep guns in Woolwich barracks ?

I am helping on the Help for Heros bike ride on 2nd June. That is now likely to be locked down with police everywhere.

Not within the guard forces Rules of engagement. They can only open fire to eliminate an imminent threat. And as this was outside the view of the gate would not be able to react.

Pituophis

Velonutter wrote:

Gentlemen, We are receiving complaints of racialism on this thread, please bring it back on track and keep it so or it will have to be locked. Thank-you

This thread is all about discussing the racist murder of a loyal British soldier.
How do you stop a discussion on racism? Call the people involved racists. Simples. :roll:

CambsNewbie

mallorcajeff wrote:

The second most astounding thing is the police took 20 mins to arrive? Good job they did hang around with a twenty minute head start they could have gone anywhere.

Apparently first police were there in 9 mins and ARVs in 14 mins. It always takes a couple of minutes from taking the call to create a job, then pass that over to the controller, for that controller to get it over the air and then despatch officers to it. For the ARVs they then have an arse-covering briefing over the air by Oscar one to give them permission to arm and remind them of 'less lethal options(!)'

But I'm still surprised in central london it took them 14 mins to get there.

cornerblock

steve6690 wrote:

How many armed response units do you think there are ? 20 minutes is actually pretty good.

You really think 20 minutes is a good response time in a major city like London? I think it's very poor. Yesterday could have been an even sadder day if those two lunatics had wanted to kill more people. More armed response units are certainly needed if it's going to take 20 minutes to get to an incident this serious, where citizens are being murdered on the streets by killers armed with machetes and guns. I mean we are talking about a city that everyone knows is a target for those with evil intent, not a sleepy village miles from the nearest town or city.

CambsNewbie

Stanley222 wrote:

Cornerblock wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

How many armed response units do you think there are ? 20 minutes is actually pretty good.

You really think 20 minutes is a good response time in a major city like London? I think it's very poor. Yesterday could have been an even sadder day if those two lunatics had wanted to kill more people. More armed response units are certainly needed if it's going to take 20 minutes to get to an incident this serious, where citizens are being murdered on the streets by killers armed with machetes and guns. I mean we are talking about a city that everyone knows is a target for those with evil intent, not a sleepy village miles from the nearest town or city.

More armed police or maybe just police may be needed but seeing as numbers are being cut and budgets stripped of millions it's not going to happen!

I maybe wrong, but I don't think the Met have started their cuts yet. God knows what will happen when they kick in.

steve6690

Cornerblock wrote:

steve6690 wrote:

How many armed response units do you think there are ? 20 minutes is actually pretty good.

You really think 20 minutes is a good response time in a major city like London? I think it's very poor. Yesterday could have been an even sadder day if those two lunatics had wanted to kill more people. More armed response units are certainly needed if it's going to take 20 minutes to get to an incident this serious, where citizens are being murdered on the streets by killers armed with machetes and guns. I mean we are talking about a city that everyone knows is a target for those with evil intent, not a sleepy village miles from the nearest town or city.

I think 20 minutes (was 14 minutes it seems) is good bearing in mind the number of ARV's, who probably don't just sit around waiting to be called. You can rest assured the crew would have got there as soon as they could. How many armed response crews would be needed to guarantee an immediate response anywhere in the capital ? And who's going to pay for it ? Not this government, of that you can be sure.

steve6690

CambsNewbie wrote:

mallorcajeff wrote:

The second most astounding thing is the police took 20 mins to arrive? Good job they did hang around with a twenty minute head start they could have gone anywhere.

Apparently first police were there in 9 mins and ARVs in 14 mins. It always takes a couple of minutes from taking the call to create a job, then pass that over to the controller, for that controller to get it over the air and then despatch officers to it. For the ARVs they then have an arse-covering briefing over the air by Oscar one to give them permission to arm and remind them of 'less lethal options(!)'

But I'm still surprised in central london it took them 14 mins to get there.

Briefing done en route, and can be significantly shortened for incidents such as this. It can be very short actually.

CambsNewbie

steve6690 wrote:

CambsNewbie wrote:

mallorcajeff wrote:

The second most astounding thing is the police took 20 mins to arrive? Good job they did hang around with a twenty minute head start they could have gone anywhere.

Apparently first police were there in 9 mins and ARVs in 14 mins. It always takes a couple of minutes from taking the call to create a job, then pass that over to the controller, for that controller to get it over the air and then despatch officers to it. For the ARVs they then have an arse-covering briefing over the air by Oscar one to give them permission to arm and remind them of 'less lethal options(!)'

But I'm still surprised in central london it took them 14 mins to get there.

Briefing done en route, and can be significantly shortened for incidents such as this. It can be very short actually.

Such as 'please don't shot them unless you really have to otherwise there's a shit load of paperwork, now, go get 'em!'

Ben6899

daviesee wrote:

Sorry Graham but you are wrong.

In the eyes of some Muslims not only is this done in the name of religion but it is perfectly right and justifiable. For context, as far as these people are concerned this is still the crusades that will not finish until Muslim is the only way.

R.I.P.

For the sake of balance (because we're all intelligent here and capable of proper debate), the exact opposite can be attributed to some British soldiers/ex-soldiers/EDL fanboys. I've seen them with St. George tattoos, calling themselves 'crusaders'. FFS, they're as deluded as these two nutters in Woolwich.

FishFish

Good balance.

Cleat Eastwood

Just for a bit more balance.

Muslim Mp's who voted in favour of gay marriage are fearing a reaction from radical clerics

And the good police who risk their lives can be tarnished by actions like this

Hates not your enemy, love's your enemy

Bozman

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Sorry Graham but you are wrong.

In the eyes of some Muslims not only is this done in the name of religion but it is perfectly right and justifiable. For context, as far as these people are concerned this is still the crusades that will not finish until Muslim is the only way.

R.I.P.

For the sake of balance (because we're all intelligent here and capable of proper debate), the exact opposite can be attributed to some British soldiers/ex-soldiers/EDL fanboys. I've seen them with St. George tattoos, calling themselves 'crusaders'. FFS, they're as deluded as these two nutters in Woolwich.

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

Gregger

What frustrates me here (and I recall with the case of the bloke who burnt his kids in Derby) is that a number of post say "wait until they get to prison wwhere they;ll be sorted out"
Is our justice sytem that bad we expects convicts themselves to dish it out. That is really bad
A great tragedy that the C*nts wh did it are still alive
Thoughts with the soldeirs family

RDW

Bozman wrote:

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eague.html

jedster

This thread is all about discussing the racist murder of a loyal British soldier

You what?

In what sense was this a racist murder?
It's pretty clear the guy was (digustingly, unjustifiably) murdered because he was a SOLDIER not because he was white. The would-be jihadis have issued particularly nasty threads to muslim and asian soldiers. The murder was not about ethnicity.

Bozman

RDW wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eague.html

And? Was he a member of he EDL? He's a nutter from another country trying to link himself to a right wing group, the EDL and other English right wing groups pale in to insignificance compared to Muslim fundamentalist groups, it's comical to even compare the two.

Cleat Eastwood

On average it takes 16 - 18 hours for a duckling to hatch. The duckling is very tired when it hatches and will often just want to rest and stay warm until it dries and becomes fluffy. Ducklings are not waterproof when they are born, it usually takes a few days.

By the age of 8 weeks the ducklings are fully grown.

Pross

usedtobefast wrote:

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned people just standing around taking photos; 1) people would be in a state of shock and confusion which paralyses rational actions and thoughts, and 2) you have to exclude the incredible actions of the women cub scout leader who went to the aid of the victim and tried the get the attacker to give up there weapons. It's amazing, humbling, and reassuring that we still have people like this in the community, I'm damn sure I wouldn't have been able to do the same.

That was my comment. I wasn't suggesting that anyone should physically intervene just that the first reaction these days seems to be to pull out a phone....not to call for help but to record the incident. I couldn't believe the one guy was prepared to stand feet away from a blood soaked murderer wielding a machete and film him, it was bizzarre. I realise that in this case it may come in useful as evidence but I doubt the person was thinking that at the time and I'm not sure why the TV channels used some of the recorded images. The worst case of this voyeuristic approach I can remember recently was people filming that big pile up and fire on the M5 in 2011

Ben6899

Bozman wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Sorry Graham but you are wrong.

In the eyes of some Muslims not only is this done in the name of religion but it is perfectly right and justifiable. For context, as far as these people are concerned this is still the crusades that will not finish until Muslim is the only way.

R.I.P.

For the sake of balance (because we're all intelligent here and capable of proper debate), the exact opposite can be attributed to some British soldiers/ex-soldiers/EDL fanboys. I've seen them with St. George tattoos, calling themselves 'crusaders'. FFS, they're as deluded as these two nutters in Woolwich.

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

I don't know? Would they? Can you categorically state?

I disagree they're worlds apart. I guess it's only because the average EDL loon is a British, white male that you don't feel as far removed as you do to the average Islamic Extremist.

I stand by my point that soldiers sporting tattoos conveying the Crusade message or soldiers thinking they're killing and maiming Middle Eastern insurgents in the name of St George are just as crackers as the two hatchet men in Woolwich.

Make sure you read that properly before you come back and ask me how I dare compare you to an EDL loon.

Pituophis

jedster wrote:

This thread is all about discussing the racist murder of a loyal British soldier

You what?

In what sense was this a racist murder?
It's pretty clear the guy was (digustingly, unjustifiably) murdered because he was a SOLDIER not because he was white. The would-be jihadis have issued particularly nasty threads to muslim and asian soldiers. The murder was not about ethnicity.

In exactly the same way that someone has complained that racist comments had been made earlier in this thread, when actually they hadn't.

I think all religion is b*****ks, but one thing is for certain, if you mention islam in an unfavourable light you are somehow a racist (when as you rightly say, it has absolutely nothing to do with "race") in order to shut you up!

Frank the tank

What is the best way to prevent people being turned into radical islamic fundamentalists (or however they describe themselves). I don't know.

Why are these people allowed to spout there vitriol and hatered of "westerners" and have there heads turned in such a way. Very often after outrages such as this it gets revealed that the killers are known to the security services and they'd been in the company of other radical islamists etc,etc. Should the muslim community start turning their own in if they have suspicions about certain people; rather than just distance themselves from the crime when it happens.

Ben6899

Frank the tank wrote:

Should the muslim community start turning their own in if they have suspicions about certain people; rather than just distance themselves from the crime when it happens.

This won't happen.

And it wouldn't happen, if the boot was on the other foot.

That's how it works, I'm afraid. Turning people in indicates you know it's happening and you're admitting a problem. Waiting for shit to get real and then distancing oneself indicates you didn't know what was going on.

Defence mechanism.

Bozman

Just take religion out of the equation and Bobs your uncle.

On 5 live this morning a bloke (apparently black and from Slough)commented that this country's problem lay with it trying to appease everyone, if you just had one set of rules for everyone there wouldn't be an issue, you come to a country and you know where you stand and if you don't like it you clear off or you don't come in the first place.
Sounds a bit "When in Rome" but the guy said that racial tension had never been higher because of cultures trying to force their way of life on you, you can't sell this, you can't eat this and you can't do that.

Cleat Eastwood

Bozman wrote:

cultures trying to force their way of life on you, you can't sell this, you can't eat this and you can't do that.

That doesnt come from minorities though IMO - those dictats come from white middle class males who want a cause to champion.

To misquote Ballsmate - its people thinking they can make us better.

And in contrast to their superiority they need to create a minority - its been the irish, the white working class, blacks, asians and now its the muslims - women still don't have a chance

mididoctors

Pross wrote:

I'm pretty sure the whole point of this attack and the murderers lack of an escape attempt is to try to bring about revenge killings and a whole downward spiral. Remember the victim, leave the murderers to face the full extent of what is allowed in the law without publicity and don't fall into the trap of retribution is the only way to sensibly move on but others will use it as a reason to get support for their own extremist agenda.

basically this


if you satand back this is a act designed to enflame by 2 geezers with issues (self)manipulated into sacrificing themselves. The death penalty wasn't going to put them off :roll:

the ability to kill large numbers is pretty limited compared to the perceived moral outrage.

The PM doesn't fly back for some multiple drug related murder or even a spree killer?

ballysmate

Ben6899 wrote:

Bozman wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Sorry Graham but you are wrong.

In the eyes of some Muslims not only is this done in the name of religion but it is perfectly right and justifiable. For context, as far as these people are concerned this is still the crusades that will not finish until Muslim is the only way.

R.I.P.

For the sake of balance (because we're all intelligent here and capable of proper debate), the exact opposite can be attributed to some British soldiers/ex-soldiers/EDL fanboys. I've seen them with St. George tattoos, calling themselves 'crusaders'. FFS, they're as deluded as these two nutters in Woolwich.

Would an EDL supporter try to decapitate someone on a public highway?
They're worlds apart, one will be all talk and the other..... Well we know what the other is capable of.

I don't know? Would they? Can you categorically state?

I disagree they're worlds apart. I guess it's only because the average EDL loon is a British, white male that you don't feel as far removed as you do to the average Islamic Extremist.

I stand by my point that soldiers sporting tattoos conveying the Crusade message or soldiers thinking they're killing and maiming Middle Eastern insurgents in the name of St George are just as crackers as the two hatchet men in Woolwich.

Make sure you read that properly before you come back and ask me how I dare compare you to an EDL loon.

Ben, I am not saying you are wrong about some British soldiers, that may be your experience, and you may be in a better position to judge than I, but that has not been my experience.
I have known a fair few squaddies who have served in Afghanistan and before that, Iraq. I have met some who didn't want to go for a variety of understandable reasons, some who enjoyed the buzz and excitement and some who saw it as a way to get out of debt. I have yet to meet one who viewed what they were doing as a crusade. Other serving or ex servicemen on here may be able to shed more light on the idea of a 'crusade'.
I am not saying all British servicemen are angels, far from it. There have been investigations and proof of brutality that says they are not.
You mention tattoos and St George, thus implying that servicemen from Scotland, Wales and Ireland are above such thoughts and deeds. Are Scottish regiments comprised of a different type or calibre of recruit? This brings me to a tangental point.
Why has the English 'Cross of St. George' become synonymous with racism? If anyone sees someone sporting a Saltire tattoo or a Welsh dragon, they don't think 'racist' do they? Why is that?
For the record, I abhor what the EDL and fascists stand for so don't misunderstand me and think that I am in some way defending them.

essjaydee

Those who murdered Lee Rigby, do not deserve to live :twisted:

If this had been carried out by animals, they would be put down. I don't see the difference!

cornerblock

essjaydee wrote:

Those who murdered Lee Rigby, do not deserve to live :twisted:

If this had been carried out by animals, they would be put down. I don't see the difference!

No that would only make them martyrs to all the other like minded idiots out there, and judging by the way they ran at the police that is probably exactly what they wanted to become. Better that they rot to death in their own poison.

morstar

Cornerblock wrote:

essjaydee wrote:

Those who murdered Lee Rigby, do not deserve to live :twisted:

If this had been carried out by animals, they would be put down. I don't see the difference!

No that would only make them martyrs to all the other like minded idiots out there, and judging by the way they ran at the police that is probably exactly what they wanted to become. Better that they rot to death in their own poison.

And who knows, maybe one day realise their mistake and turn others who they meet in prison away from a similar course. Wishful thinking? Probably, but it's about the only positive I can see ever coming out of this hideous act.

ademort

The attack was surreal, just beyond belief that anyone could do such a thing in broad daylight in London and then hang around waiting for police. As a punishment it would be nice if the police could drive the 2 men once they recover upto Woolwich barracks and just let the Squaddies deal with them.