Is my life less valuable than a police officer?

Frank the tank

I appreciate the police are there to "Protect and serve" but if the home secretary has her way the killing of a police officer will carry a mandatory life imprisonment tariff. However if I were to get murdered (perhaps defending an elderly person from attack, who knows) the sentence is up for debate.

Now I'm not being funny but, I think the loss of me to my family would be every bit as devastating to them as sharon beshenivsky's awful loss was to hers.

I'm not saying that the life tariff would be wrong, but when you join the force you do so with full knowledge (I hope) of what you're signing up to. One of the reasons I never joined the police force or armed forces.

morstar

I agree. No beef with the police from me but any murder sentence should reflect the circumstances. This should be based on things such as pre-meditation and vulnerability of the victim etc.

simona75

I think the idea of an extended tarif is to act as a deterrent rather than a punishment. I doubt it will have much impact and we all know it was just a tactic to try and sweeten what is often a difficult gig (federation conference) for the Home Sec. I doubt it will ever get through the Sentencing Board

fearby

It is a cynical attempt by the home secretary to get people to like her and the government policies. I thought that would be obvious.

CambsNewbie

simona75 wrote:

we all know it was just a tactic to try and sweeten what is often a difficult gig (federation conference) for the Home Sec. I doubt it will ever get through the Sentencing Board

As the song goes.. "give them the old razzle dazzle.. Razzle dazzle them.." and they might not notice the first pay rise for 3 years is 1%, budgets are being cut and cut again, officer numbers are down, double time for being told you have to work at short notice is gone, shifts are being extended at short notice (sometimes 30 mins before due to go home) to cover shortages, rest days cancelled at short notice, I can go on. But that's all ok, because if someone murders me on duty they will get life. What she's failing to notice is that the policies she is implementing and the cuts make it more likely that a police officer will be murdered or seriously hurt.

And yes I agree that all murders should get a life sentence unless there are mitigating circumstances as to why they shouldn't..

And I also appreciate that there are many other workers both public and private sector who have had pay cuts or no pay raises as well..

smoggysteve

fearby wrote:

It is a cynical attempt by the home secretary to get people to like her and the government policies. I thought that would be obvious.

She has to try something. Everything she has done whilst the Tories have been in power has pretty much turned into a complete clusterfuck. She has to be the worst cabinet minister or she has bad backroom staff. Either way, she always looks as though she has no idea what it is she is aiming to do.

She failed at her "promise" to get rid of Ubu Qatada so she is desperate to redeem herself.

morstar

SmoggySteve wrote:

fearby wrote:

It is a cynical attempt by the home secretary to get people to like her and the government policies. I thought that would be obvious.

She has to try something. Everything she has done whilst the Tories have been in power has pretty much turned into a complete clusterfuck. She has to be the worst cabinet minister or she has bad backroom staff. Either way, she always looks as though she has no idea what it is she is aiming to do.

She failed at her "promise" to get rid of Ubu Qatada so she is desperate to redeem herself.

No, sorry. She's not even in the same league as Gove. He is the most dangerous man in the country. Totally out of control narrow minded policy based on down the pub opinions.

CambsNewbie

morstar wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

fearby wrote:

It is a cynical attempt by the home secretary to get people to like her and the government policies. I thought that would be obvious.

She has to try something. Everything she has done whilst the Tories have been in power has pretty much turned into a complete clusterfuck. She has to be the worst cabinet minister or she has bad backroom staff. Either way, she always looks as though she has no idea what it is she is aiming to do.

She failed at her "promise" to get rid of Ubu Qatada so she is desperate to redeem herself.

No, sorry. She's not even in the same league as Gove. He is the most dangerous man in the country. Totally out of control narrow minded policy based on down the pub opinions.

Sounds like Nigel Farage then!

confused@BR

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

morstar

CambsNewbie wrote:

morstar wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

fearby wrote:

It is a cynical attempt by the home secretary to get people to like her and the government policies. I thought that would be obvious.

She has to try something. Everything she has done whilst the Tories have been in power has pretty much turned into a complete clusterfuck. She has to be the worst cabinet minister or she has bad backroom staff. Either way, she always looks as though she has no idea what it is she is aiming to do.

She failed at her "promise" to get rid of Ubu Qatada so she is desperate to redeem herself.

No, sorry. She's not even in the same league as Gove. He is the most dangerous man in the country. Totally out of control narrow minded policy based on down the pub opinions.

Sounds like Nigel Farage then!

Exactly, although it would be interesting to see where the country did end up with an incoherent jumble of populist policies.

morstar

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

This.

I try to be quite open minded about politics and not take a blinkered party centric view. However, Gove genuinely scares me. He is truly dangerous.
Made me laugh to hear Dorries talking about Labour wrecking the economy. What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

finchy

morstar wrote:

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

This.

I try to be quite open minded about politics and not take a blinkered party centric view. However, Gove genuinely scares me. He is truly dangerous.
Made me laugh to hear Dorries talking about wrecking the economy. What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

Well, he's allowing schools to take on non-qualified teachers so that it will be easier for the private companies that take over education in the next 10 years to make a massive profit. That's my best guess anyway.

morstar

johnfinch wrote:

morstar wrote:

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

This.

I try to be quite open minded about politics and not take a blinkered party centric view. However, Gove genuinely scares me. He is truly dangerous.
Made me laugh to hear Dorries talking about wrecking the economy. What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

Well, he's allowing schools to take on non-qualified teachers so that it will be easier for the private companies that take over education in the next 10 years to make a massive profit. That's my best guess anyway.

Seems plausible. Interesting to hear students complaining about value for university fees. Told to act like consumers buying a service but no access to redress over poor standards. Where does that leave the 6 year old getting a poor deal from a private sector school.

pinno

What gets me too is when you get a story of someone who is killed or dies and they go into how full of life they were or how much potential they had etc etc. Its adding a crazy subjectivism to the whole thing.
We are going down the American route unfortunately.

Bozman

We run away from trouble when they head towards it, plus a pair of jeans and a t-shirt isn't a target but a uniform is, the sentence is a deterrent and may make someone think twice.
I wouldn't do that job for all the tea in China, then again I wouldn't be a teacher either, professions like these are jobs from hell that attract constant criticism from folk that have no idea and would be the fist to complain if they weren't there.

apreading

Bozman wrote:

We run away from trouble when they head towards it, plus a pair of jeans and a t-shirt isn't a target but a uniform is, the sentence is a deterrent and may make someone think twice.

Totally agree with everything you have said and the police deserve much thanks and respect for what they do, but surely we should be trying to deter people from killing anyone - civilian or police - so the mandatory life should apply regardless of who was killed.

Whether it was a police officer or civilian killed may be very different in terms of the victim. In terms of the criminal or the crime there is no difference as far as I can see - they have taken a life and deprived a family of a loved one.

napoleond

Should be life no matter who the victim unless there are mitigating circumstances...

ballysmate

morstar wrote:

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

I make no comment on Gove but disagree about the education system.
The schools are turning out kids who don't have the basics in literacy and numeracy after over 10 years in education. They are turning out kids with qualifications that employers view as a sham. How can that not be termed 'fundamentally broken'.
I would hate to be a teacher and I take my hat off to the good ones out there, trying their best when the cards are stacked against them. The authority a teacher had in the classroom has been eroded and their position can be awful. I think back to my school years and remember the teachers and their reputations. Some you knew were strict and you sat and behaved. Other teachers you knew had no authority and well, there was chaos. With their authority stripped away, the teachers are now faced with chaos.
There are still bad teachers who are either lazy or just plain bad. I went to my son's school parents' evening, sat down with him to speak to his French teacher, only for his teacher to ask my son his name! Could not believe it!

MountainMonster

pinarello001 wrote:

What gets me too is when you get a story of someone who is killed or dies and they go into how full of life they were or how much potential they had etc etc. Its adding a crazy subjectivism to the whole thing.
We are going down the American route unfortunately.

How is that an American thing to say? I've heard it from Thailand, India, Austria, the UK, the US and many other places. Why do you hate Americans so much?

solosuperia

Once for my sins I joined a committee to assist the local Sixth Form College working out what they should teach their non computing students about IT. Obviously accounting students.... spread sheets.
I think I was the only technical person on the committee, the others were HR and such, basically I felt they were just along for the tea and biscuits.
I suggested things like HTML and SQL, as used in Microsoft Office I am going back a few years here. I gave up trying to drag them forward.
The College staff I felt didn't want to hear any opinions they just wanted to be able to say that they had consulted with businesses in the locality.
Just hope it has changed.................

the playing mantis

Ballysmate wrote:

morstar wrote:

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

I make no comment on Gove but disagree about the education system.
The schools are turning out kids who don't have the basics in literacy and numeracy after over 10 years in education. They are turning out kids with qualifications that employers view as a sham. How can that not be termed 'fundamentally broken'.
I would hate to be a teacher and I take my hat off to the good ones out there, trying their best when the cards are stacked against them. The authority a teacher had in the classroom has been eroded and their position can be awful. I think back to my school years and remember the teachers and their reputations. Some you knew were strict and you sat and behaved. Other teachers you knew had no authority and well, there was chaos. With their authority stripped away, the teachers are now faced with chaos.
There are still bad teachers who are either lazy or just plain bad. I went to my son's school parents' evening, sat down with him to speak to his French teacher, only for his teacher to ask my son his name! Could not believe it!

+1, although i wouldnt mind being a teacher in a girls private school...

soceity is undoubtably more ignorant and by proxy, stupid these days. be that because of education or the culture we live in i think its both. either way the education system isnt churning out skilled individuals even with basic skills. we get cv's from school/uni leavers riddled with spelling mistakes and these people can't do basic numeracy. the modern fashion for want of a better words; namby pamby teaching (like interpreting ww2 through music as part of a history lesson as an extreme and possibly made up example) is dire. this was creeping in in my last years of school a few years ago. this for starters need to change.

as for the police life issue. does life mean life/ it should. but i cant see any harm in this its not causing a problem, its a step in the right direction.

fast as fupp

IRONY

daviesee

fast as fupp wrote:

IRONY

Maybe the Caps and apostrophe key is broken.

morstar

the playing mantis wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

morstar wrote:

confused@BR wrote:

Yes but Farage is not a Government Minister.

What on earth is Gove doing to education? There are tough decisions to be made in government under any circumstances, why take a wrecking ball to an education system that yes, can be improved, but isn't fundamentally broken other than for non-academic kids. Every change he proposes makes it even more likely to fail non-academics.

I make no comment on Gove but disagree about the education system.
The schools are turning out kids who don't have the basics in literacy and numeracy after over 10 years in education. They are turning out kids with qualifications that employers view as a sham. How can that not be termed 'fundamentally broken'.
I would hate to be a teacher and I take my hat off to the good ones out there, trying their best when the cards are stacked against them. The authority a teacher had in the classroom has been eroded and their position can be awful. I think back to my school years and remember the teachers and their reputations. Some you knew were strict and you sat and behaved. Other teachers you knew had no authority and well, there was chaos. With their authority stripped away, the teachers are now faced with chaos.
There are still bad teachers who are either lazy or just plain bad. I went to my son's school parents' evening, sat down with him to speak to his French teacher, only for his teacher to ask my son his name! Could not believe it!

+1, although i wouldnt mind being a teacher in a girls private school...

soceity is undoubtably more ignorant and by proxy, stupid these days. be that because of education or the culture we live in i think its both. either way the education system isnt churning out skilled individuals even with basic skills. we get cv's from school/uni leavers riddled with spelling mistakes and these people can't do basic numeracy. the modern fashion for want of a better words; namby pamby teaching (like interpreting ww2 through music as part of a history lesson as an extreme and possibly made up example) is dire. this was creeping in in my last years of school a few years ago. this for starters need to change.

as for the police life issue. does life mean life/ it should. but i cant see any harm in this its not causing a problem, its a step in the right direction.

Sorry for keeping this OT.

However, we have a generation of failures because they are not engaging with the schooling system. I agree with points re discipline but fundamentally, the focus is ACADEMIC, ACADEMIC, ACADEMIC. The less able kids are totally disengaged. Current solution, more three R's etc. etc.

How about practical lessons? Teaching trades. Half these kids that don't learn the basics are completely switched off. Don't you think putting maths and reading into a more practical context will not only help directly, but also break up teh routine and make it easier to engage in the traditional lessons. Just banging the sames old drum but louder and louder is not a solution. Obviously there's lots of other social conditions in there but none of this is being solved by more of the three R's.

ooermissus

English 15 years old perform around average for developed countries in reading and maths, and above average in science. No evidence that our education system is broken - or that it's especially great.

Interested in the vocational angle - every government promises to focus on this, but it never seems to go anywhere.

the playing mantis

teaching trades would be good, as would moving away from the ridiculous idea that everyone should go to university. in most cases its not needed, and simply a means for people to have a jolly up, and get into a load of debt that could potentially mess their lives up for years to come.

Frank the tank

Bozman wrote:

We run away from trouble when they head towards it, plus a pair of jeans and a t-shirt isn't a target but a uniform is, the sentence is a deterrent and may make someone think twice.
I wouldn't do that job for all the tea in China, then again I wouldn't be a teacher either, professions like these are jobs from hell that attract constant criticism from folk that have no idea and would be the fist to complain if they weren't there.

Please read my OP again, I was not belittling what the police do, far from it.

You, like myself appreciate what a difficult/dangerous job it is and chose not to do it. I assume those who choose to do it do so knowing the risks involved.

I tend to agree the home sec is trying to get officers on side, given the stick their pay and T&Cs have have taken on her watch. All I am saying is if it were to come to fruition somehow the life of a none police officer or prison warder would be in the eyes of the law second rate/class/less valuable whatever.

Another point, most police not all (I would think) are murdered in order to make good an escape from a crime scene. So (not excusing it) there is some kind of twisted reasoning to the killing, some murder victims are just killed totally at random for no reason at all. Other than the evil in some idiots mind.

Just to reiterate, I in no way have an issue with the police but murder is murder and no one life should seemingly be valued above another in a discriminatory way when it comes to sentencing.

MountainMonster

the playing mantis wrote:

teaching trades would be good, as would moving away from the ridiculous idea that everyone should go to university. in most cases its not needed, and simply a means for people to have a jolly up, and get into a load of debt that could potentially mess their lives up for years to come.

This also needs to change from a business side as well. One of the problems we have faced in my age group (23 years old) is coming out of university only to find that we can not get a job because the market is saturated with people who scrape by on their courses and get a diploma, and the SERIOUS lack of ways to begin in careers we want to have. Things such as the experience rules, and MUST have a college degree for almost everything professionally is a major deterrent for people who want to find work.

If I wasn't self employed I would be struggling very hard at this moment. I spent 2 years with good connections, good marks and no experience applying for everything under the sun job wise to no avail. This is with a 3.57 GPA (American System), and even being told for internships they would love to take me on as they can see I know what i'm talking about but since I had no experience I was no eligible because their boss would not sign off the form to let me start.

That is one serious problem.

With regards to the police officer issues, I find this appalling. If I slap someone in Staples doing their job and being cheeky to me I could maybe get a warning or they just tell me to leave, but I face jail time if it just so happens to be a police officer because they are "higher" than anyone else. I remember one of my friends back in the states when I was 15 or 16 had a drug K9 come out of the middle of nowhere completely at random, and because my friend had weed in his pocket the dog was latching on to his arm and not letting go, and left his arm shredded. There was no officer in sight because they dog had gone forward to search for someone. Anyway, after about a minute of this dog ripping his arm up he gave the dog a slap to try to get it away, and this is when the officer emerged from the trail and saw it happen. My friend spent one year in jail for slapping a random dog that was attacking him all because it was a police dog. I find things like this terrible, as if the cop had bothered to keep up with the dog he would have told it to leave my buddies arm alone, but since he was not present my friend panicked as he was watching his arm pouring out blood.

apreading

the playing mantis wrote:

teaching trades would be good, as would moving away from the ridiculous idea that everyone should go to university. in most cases its not needed, and simply a means for people to have a jolly up, and get into a load of debt that could potentially mess their lives up for years to come.

everyone going to university also erodes one of the key reasons to go to university - to differentiate yourself from less able people when going for a job. If everyone has degrees then suddenly you start needing a PHD or masters to get a job. Apart from a fairly low percentage, most people who get a degree dont use the knowledge/skills afterwards but all expect it to look good on their CV and help them get a better job. Its pointless if everyone gets to uni and then the A levels or degrees get dumbed down to help everyone achieve. We have dumbed our academic qualifications down so much that we are now looking overseas at things like the Baccalaureate. Just because we dont want anyone to fail, but then passing becomes meaningless...

BelgianBeerGeek

apreading wrote:

Bozman wrote:

We run away from trouble when they head towards it, plus a pair of jeans and a t-shirt isn't a target but a uniform is, the sentence is a deterrent and may make someone think twice.

Totally agree with everything you have said and the police deserve much thanks and respect for what they do, but surely we should be trying to deter people from killing anyone - civilian or police - so the mandatory life should apply regardless of who was killed.

Whether it was a police officer or civilian killed may be very different in terms of the victim. In terms of the criminal or the crime there is no difference as far as I can see - they have taken a life and deprived a family of a loved one.

The police are civilians not some kind of paramilitary force. If you're not in HM Forces, you are a civilian. This isn't just a point of pedantry. The Police are just like the rest of Her Majesty's subjects but do a vital job on top. And sometimes that job can be difficult, dangerous and disgusting and thank the gods someone does it. The Home Secretary is talking guff, as usual.

sufferingpete

To extend the argument:-

So if a Policeman/woman kills someone should they get a life?

How many deaths at the hands of the police has resulted in prosecution?