Sky & The Classics

vinnymarsden

Does anyone else think that Skys attempt to bag a classic is going to end up winless??
They seem to get it going, ride on the front, but alas something goes awry....Thomas fell again today, Stannard faded, Eisel was their highest placed in 12th.
I personally think their approach has been a bit off, they don't appear to have a natural leader who everyone else rides for, look at Radioshack today in Paris-Roubaix..they rode their proverbial dangly bits off to help Cancellara as much as possible, whereas Sky just seem to ride along with no one being "ridden for".
We keep reading that Thomas is a big prospect but he doesn't feature up front with a team riding for him...just my thoughts...someone, feel quite free to disagree!!

rick_chasey

If you want to win a big race, you need riders capable of winning.

In Belgium they talk a lot about the distinction of riders who can finish it off and other very good riders.

Today, Sky didn't have someone capable of finishing it off.

RichN95.

In the past ten years Paris-Roubaix, Ronde van Vlaaderen and E3 have been won 20 times by either Fabian Cancellara or Tom Boonen. (Of the other ten races, they were 2nd three times, third once and Boonen's teammate won twice)

The best tactic is always to have the best rider.

RichN95.

Here's the cobbled classics tactics checklist.

Q1: Do you have Fabian Cancellara on your team?

Yes: Make sure he's within a minute or two of the front group with 50km to go and let him get on with it.
No: Go to Q2

Q2: Do you have Tom Boonen on your team?
Yes: Throw a bottle at Cancellara in the feed station, then make sure Tom's within a minute or two of the front group with 50km to go and let him get on with it
No: Go to Q3

Q3: Are you Euskaltel Euskadi?
Yes: Abandon en masse at the first feed station
No: You're pretty much screwed - ride for WT points

DeadCalm

RichN95 wrote:

Q3: Are you Euskaltel Euskadi?
Yes: Abandon en masse at the first feed station

Hey, that's being disrespectful to Ioannis Tamouridis who today surely justified Euskaltel's policy of signing non-Basque riders.

danlikesbikes

VinnyMarsden wrote:

Does anyone else think that Skys attempt to bag a classic is going to end up winless??

Yes & no - bit of a get out answer from me but with my reasoning I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

Sky as a team are & were set up for a GC win which they did, now they seem to have augmented the squad to try to go for 2 GC wins this year & if you look at their riders in early season doing well on their own who will come the summer become number 2,3 & 5 in the team. You can kind of see that at the moment the squad is still going for that and will take classic wins if & when they come.

OPQS are clearly going for 2 strategies this year the classics with Boonen (OK he's out but the plan was sound based on what he did last year) & out and out sprint domination in GC races that Cav opts to do.

Above sounds obvious right? Well of course it does but if you turn your question the other way round will OPQS ever win a GC? You'd have to say no in the their current set-up.

I think Sky have options & some very good riders but in reality if they win one/two GC's this year (who knows if Brad wins again if he will continue as number 1?) then perhaps they will purchase some riders more suited to classics racing.

EBH promised a lot but needs to make his mind up what he wants to do as he can sprint, climb, ride cobbles and TBH needs to get his head down and concentrate on one that he is better than good at. Stannard was made co-leader but only after his good race in MSR, but undoubtedly his training prior to this was a support rider (of EBH & Thomas). Thomas same as EBH really but perhaps less good on cobbles?

RichN95.

DeadCalm wrote:

Hey, that's being disrespectful to Ioannis Tamouridis who today surely justified Euskaltel's policy of signing non-Basque riders.

Thanks to Serebryakov the policy is very much in the red at the moment.

ratsbeyfus

RichN95 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Hey, that's being disrespectful to Ioannis Tamouridis who today surely justified Euskaltel's policy of signing non-Basque riders.

Thanks to Serebryakov the policy is very much in the red at the moment.

Ioannis Tamouridis?
Serebryakov?

What are the chances of Euskatel Euskadii employing a 'Tom' or a 'Bob'?

FJS

ratsbeyfus wrote:

What are the chances of Euskatel Euskadii employing a 'Tom' or a 'Bob'?

Only if they also employ a Stijn or two

FJS

The Classics aren't over yet - Sky has more riders to be in contention at the Ardennes (well, LBL at least) classics than the cobbles ones. Not sure whether those will be fully committed there though

Richmond Racer

FJS wrote:

The Classics aren't over yet - Sky has more riders to be in contention at the Ardennes (well, LBL at least) classics than the cobbles ones. Not sure whether those will be fully committed there though

Have to agree, I think they stand much more chance in the hillies. Expect Henao and Uran to be leading the charge. As for JTL , its said that they've been working on him peaking - or start of peak - for the next two weeks but there's simply nothing for us to go on right now. All his work to date has been working for the team and his work's usually been down by the time by the tv coverage comes on. I guess the only ones who really know are the Sky coaches and their DSs at those races.

What's intriguing is the firepower they're going to have at L-B-L inc Wiggins, Froome and Porte. Not that any of them are known as 1-dayers, just that its a serious injection of their A-team.

BelgianBeerGeek

Danlikesbikes wrote:

VinnyMarsden wrote:

Does anyone else think that Skys attempt to bag a classic is going to end up winless??

Yes & no - bit of a get out answer from me but with my reasoning I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

Sky as a team are & were set up for a GC win which they did, now they seem to have augmented the squad to try to go for 2 GC wins this year & if you look at their riders in early season doing well on their own who will come the summer become number 2,3 & 5 in the team. You can kind of see that at the moment the squad is still going for that and will take classic wins if & when they come.

OPQS are clearly going for 2 strategies this year the classics with Boonen (OK he's out but the plan was sound based on what he did last year) & out and out sprint domination in GC races that Cav opts to do.

Above sounds obvious right? Well of course it does but if you turn your question the other way round will OPQS ever win a GC? You'd have to say no in the their current set-up.

I think Sky have options & some very good riders but in reality if they win one/two GC's this year (who knows if Brad wins again if he will continue as number 1?) then perhaps they will purchase some riders more suited to classics racing.

EBH promised a lot but needs to make his mind up what he wants to do as he can sprint, climb, ride cobbles and TBH needs to get his head down and concentrate on one that he is better than good at. Stannard was made co-leader but only after his good race in MSR, but undoubtedly his training prior to this was a support rider (of EBH & Thomas). Thomas same as EBH really but perhaps less good on cobbles?

Thomas less good on cobbles? He did win P-R as a junior, after all. More like just not his day.
Fair point about the above that maybe the classics aren't the major focus for Sky.

graeme_s-2

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Fair point about the above that maybe the classics aren't the major focus for Sky.

I think it would be a fair point if they hadn't talked themselves up ahead of them. If you asked Lefevere what he was doing to make sure OPQS win the yellow jersey in July I assume he'd say absolutely nothing, as that isn't their aim this year. In contrast when Sky bods have been asked about the classics over the last few months they've talked about marginal gains, their hot weather training camp, team work, strength in depth etc.

I agree it's not been their main aim for the year, but they have absolutely tried to win some classics races this year.

danlikesbikes

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Thomas less good on cobbles? He did win P-R as a junior, after all. More like just not his day.
Fair point about the above that maybe the classics aren't the major focus for Sky.

Hence the :?: I'm aware of his junior win, but to date he seems to fall off on cobbles quite a bit & have failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles. Could be his other commitments in 2012 & adjusting his training, could be that Sky are trying to train him as the next possible GC man or that he was super strong as a junior but the gulf has closed considerably since moving up to the senior rank

smithy21

They definitely wanted to give it a good go and I dont think they will view it so far as anything other than disappointing. They have had some minor placings in some of the smaller races but only Stannard at MSR being at the sharp end in the big ones.

Rich makes a good point about who has won these races- if Boonen or Cancellara are on form then its difficult to stop them. Is anyone really going to hail Lotto as having a great classics season as a result of Roelandts podium or Blanco as a result of Vanmarcke's ride yesterday?

If I was G or EBH I'd be more worried about my chances of getting into a GT squad after the last few weeks.

Richmond Racer

smithy21 wrote:

They definitely wanted to give it a good go and I dont think they will view it so far as anything other than disappointing. They have had some minor placings in some of the smaller races but only Stannard at MSR being at the sharp end in the big ones.

Rich makes a good point about who has won these races- if Boonen or Cancellara are on form then its difficult to stop them. Is anyone really going to hail Lotto as having a great classics season as a result of Roelandts podium or Blanco as a result of Vanmarcke's ride yesterday?

If I was G or EBH I'd be more worried about my chances of getting into a GT squad after the last few weeks.

Blanco will be totally made up with Vanmarcke's ride. As they should be. No doubt about that.

G and EBH have hardly ruled themselves out of making the Tour, based on the last 3 weeks on the cobbles. Bit bizarre to suggest that IMO.

EDIT:

to add:

However much EBH frustrates in the Classics, he seems to save his best for Jun-Sep, as his palmares over last 3 years shows.

And in between the crashes over the last 3 weeks G managed to grab himself 2 x 4th places.

inkyfingers

All of Sky's classics team are very good cobbled classics riders, just not great ones. The likes of EBH, GT, Stannard and Eisel would walk into pretty much any other teams roster. Not a great analogy but imagine Barcelona FC without Messi, the rest of the team are very good, but Messi is perhaps the guy that makes them a truly great team, Sky need a Messi.

To win monuments you either need to be a truly great rider (Boonen, Cancellara etc) or a very good rider with a lot of luck (Van Summeren, O'Grady). Sky don't have any great cobbled classics riders and certainly haven't had any luck.

r0bh

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Hence the :?: I'm aware of his junior win, but to date he seems to fall off on cobbles quite a bit & have failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles.

Of the Junior Paris-Roubaix podium finishers since 2013 only Sagan (2nd, 2008) has a better senior palmares than GT.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Roubaix_juniors

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

iainf72

r0bh wrote:

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

To be fair, Cadel came 3rd in that stage and Andy Schleck was in the same group.

Richmond Racer

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

To be fair, Cadel came 3rd in that stage and Andy Schleck was in the same group.

Sure. Hushovd won with Van Summeren finishing 6th and Cancellara 7th. The top 10 was a right old mix of GC and Classics specialists. However fact remains that G rode a hell of a race that day and its an example of his ability to ride and do well on the cobbles, which was the point under debate

EDITED ABOVE

iainf72

Richmond Racer wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

To be fair, Cadel came 3rd in that stage and Andy Schleck was in the same group.

Sure but its an example of his ability to ride and do well on the cobbles, which was the point under debate

So we could say Andy could do well on cobbles?

I think Geraint could win. If he went to OPQS.

Richmond Racer

iainf72 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

To be fair, Cadel came 3rd in that stage and Andy Schleck was in the same group.

Sure but its an example of his ability to ride and do well on the cobbles, which was the point under debate

So we could say Andy could do well on cobbles?

I think Geraint could win. If he went to OPQS.

No. The point is that there are several examples of G doing well on cobbles, of which this was one. Hardly making the same point about Andy S - not that he's the rider under discussion.

TheBigBean

iainf72 wrote:

So we could say Andy could do well on cobbles?

In July yes, otherwise no.

TheBigBean

Please can someone bump that thread about the journalist that interviewed Cancellera asking if he was jealous of Sky. I remembered it this morning on my way in, and it made me chuckle again.

danlikesbikes

r0bh wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Hence the :?: I'm aware of his junior win, but to date he seems to fall off on cobbles quite a bit & have failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles.

Of the Junior Paris-Roubaix podium finishers since 2013 only Sagan (2nd, 2008) has a better senior palmares than GT.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Roubaix_juniors

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

So your point is?

He won the junior race in 2004, came 10th in a senior race in 2010 & 2nd on a TDF stage in 2010. Hardly what you would all a cobbles hard man. In that time frame I'm sure that we could list riders who have regularly done better in the cobbled classics. Which is perhaps the point I am making that if he wants to be considered a good rider for the one day classics (as most people inc TV commentators suggest he is a hard man & this should suit him) he needs to race & get good results consistently.

Don't get me wrong I think he has skills but as I said in my earlier post I'm not sure if its that he does not have it in him or he is dedicated to other team duties (which we saw Stannard break through this in MSR & do V well).

I he wins I'll be super happy for him, but until his results suggest that he is not as good in the senior ranks on the cobbled classics races.

r0bh

Danlikesbikes wrote:

r0bh wrote:

Danlikesbikes wrote:

Hence the :?: I'm aware of his junior win, but to date he seems to fall off on cobbles quite a bit & have failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles.

Of the Junior Paris-Roubaix podium finishers since 2013 only Sagan (2nd, 2008) has a better senior palmares than GT.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris-Roubaix_juniors

Seems like his 10th place at Flanders 2010 and 2nd in the cobbled stage of the 2010 Tour have been quickly forgotten...

So your point is?

He won the junior race in 2004, came 10th in a senior race in 2010 & 2nd on a TDF stage in 2010. Hardly what you would all a cobbles hard man. In that time frame I'm sure that we could list riders who have regularly done better in the cobbled classics. Which is perhaps the point I am making that if he wants to be considered a good rider for the one day classics (as most people inc TV commentators suggest he is a hard man & this should suit him) he needs to race & get good results consistently.

Don't get me wrong I think he has skills but as I said in my earlier post I'm not sure if its that he does not have it in him or he is dedicated to other team duties (which we saw Stannard break through this in MSR & do V well).

I he wins I'll be super happy for him, but until his results suggest that he is not as good in the senior ranks on the cobbled classics races.

My point being, you say he has "failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles" and I'm saying so has everyone else who has won the Junior P-R in the last ten years! So that's hardly something to hold against him.

And as Richmond Racer points out he has had two 4th places in the semi-classics this spring so it's not as though he's been completely off the pace.

danlikesbikes

r0bh wrote:

My point being, you say he has "failed to turn a junior win into a senior win on the cobbles" and I'm saying so has everyone else who has won the Junior P-R in the last ten years! So that's hardly something to hold against him.

And as Richmond Racer points out he has had two 4th places in the semi-classics this spring so it's not as though he's been completely off the pace.

Yes but by your logic the junior P-R is no mark to use when comparing junior to senior riders as very few have done the same. I never said that his failure to turn a junior win into a senior was an indicator of his or any other junior riders form.

Think you need to re-read my original comments a few times regarding him
"EBH promised a lot but needs to make his mind up what he wants to do as he can sprint, climb, ride cobbles and TBH needs to get his head down and concentrate on one that he is better than good at. Stannard was made co-leader but only after his good race in MSR, but undoubtedly his training prior to this was a support rider (of EBH & Thomas). Thomas same as EBH really but perhaps less good on cobbles?"

"Could be his other commitments in 2012 & adjusting his training, could be that Sky are trying to train him as the next possible GC man or that he was super strong as a junior but the gulf has closed considerably since moving up to the senior rank"

I'm not slating him or saying that he is a bad rider as his results show that he is good. However I don't think with his post junior wins I could call him a strong cobbles rider at all compared with other riders.

Richmond Racer

It'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple of years. He's had more than his fair share of bad luck over the last 3 weeks, but there's also been lessons learned the hard way re placement.

ddraver

My biggest worry about Gee is that he doesnt have enough of a will to win on his own. It makes him a nice guy, but does nt make him a winner. He's much better as a team player.

For example, I fear that he would never have won any Individual Pursuit Medals, but his Team Pursuit record stands for itself...

Sky need to stop supporting EBH (but then the word on the street is that he commands a significant salary so I reckon that that might be why he appears to be so favoured despite all the evidence that he can't pull it off) and let Gee and Stannard have cracks by themselves (as with the Columbians and maybe JTL in the next few weeks). That said, i think that their main problem is that they re not called Boonen, Sagan or Cancellara unfortunately.

Duncanandthemachine

ddraver wrote:

My biggest worry about Gee is that he doesnt have enough of a will to win on his own. It makes him a nice guy, but does nt make him a winner. He's much better as a team player.

My thoughts on G too. In all his pre race interview's he's very much in the 'lets get out there and see how in pans out' camp, rather than portraying a really deep sense of self belief, a la Cav for example - a born winner.

danlikesbikes

Richmond Racer wrote:

It'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple of years. He's had more than his fair share of bad luck over the last 3 weeks, but there's also been lessons learned the hard way re placement.

Think also he is in the right team in terms of support etc. In the next few years if he can get the backing of the team could see him moved up the Sky roster & at his age would be the right time for him to really shine. He after all as shown that he can go from track to road, back to track and return to the road in very good shape just needs to keep it going and hopefully the bigger results will get closer.

Think your right especially on the cobbles experience & specific cobbles tactics are whats needed.