Is Bradley Wiggins a great champion?
Comments
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If Porte loses some weight, moves teams and gets motivated he will place very highly in a Grand Tour.
He equipped himself very well whilst at THAT Giro.Contador is the Greatest0 -
That's a fair point about Froome and his pacing...and you're right, he was usually in Wiggo's wheel till the last man, usually Porte, peeled off.
Said in another thread but Porte said in an interview last month that he actually prefers riding for Wiggo than Froome as he feels it gets more out of him as a rider.
I like Porte being at Sky but if he doesnt get a shot at being at leadership next year, yeah, he probably should move - and Gerry Ryan would raid his offshore bank accounts in a heartbeat to get him to OGE (not that that would be the best place for Porte IMO)0 -
'Slow down'. 'Ok sure'.
'Slow down'. 'What a joke'.
Contador is the Greatest0 -
ThomThom wrote:OCDuPalais wrote:Porte's TT-ing was already "in the bag" and he's been working on his climbing over the last 18 months (lost a lot of the puppy fat during Winter '11/12). What better way to learn the ropes than at the sharp end of the lead group at the key moments of the mountain stages in a GT but without the pressure of being leader?
And if you want age to be a relevance, he won a stage race a full year before Froome...
Ultimately, it'll be with the brutal truth of retrospection that careers will be assessed; but 2 years ago there were about 8 people on the planet who ever imagined that Froome would amount to much: 2 years ago, Porte was in pink in the Giro...
That might very well be true, but Porte is still not as good as Froome which was what I didn't agree on to begin with.
Don't know why you keep using the Giro as an example. It's like saying Oscar Pereiro was the strongest rider in 2006 when there was a very simple reason for him being 2nd (ultimately 1st). Minutes from a breakaway.
Do minutes gained in a break not count then?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Contador is the Greatest0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Do minutes gained in a break not count then?
Depends if it is indicative of talent or luck.Contador is the Greatest0 -
fastandfurry wrote:ThomThom wrote:Still, Porte hasn't placed a poo on the top the heads of genuine GC-riders and mountain climbers like Froome has.
And as I wrote earlier - he would never have been in the top of the GC in the Giro if he hadn't been in a breakaway. He was, in fact, fairly avarage on each mountain stages. (still did good for his age, mind).
Personally, I suspect Porte might be stronger, but also a better domestique - by pulling evenly rather than surging he allows people to sit comfortably on his wheel while he's pulling pretty hard. Froome, on the other hand, keeps on losing focus, slowing down, then speeding up - 'bouncing the elastic' - which makes it harder to follow. I think that's why Froome was generally riding behind Brad in the tour until the last possible moment, and why he kept dropping him - not the sign of a domestique doing a good job!
Bear in mind Porte was sitting on the front stopping attacks and dragging back big names all the way through the tour. I think with some work on explosive power he'll be a top GC rider - although he might be better off heading to Greededge to get the team leadership he deserves.
Way to completely forget about Froome's domestique role for Wiggins in the Vuelta11.0 -
'A Million Pounds a Year? Ok, You're the boss Sean. “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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frenchfighter wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Do minutes gained in a break not count then?
Depends if it is indicative of talent or luck.
And what is the arbiter of that?
You have to get in the break first, and presumably if you are a rider of the talent of OP or RP, that can't be easy with teams looking to control the race, then you have to have the right companions and size of group which is an element of luck and then you need to drive a big enough gap.
Porte fully deserved his high placing because it was more of a split in the peloton in truly atrocious conditions that caught the big teams napping (there were 55 riders in it!). Pereiro gained over 10 minutes as a rider everybody knew could climb and still be strong over 3 weeks. You still have to defend the jersey too.
Put it this way, Voeckler in 2004, luck or talent? And why is it any different to the above examples?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
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disgruntledgoat wrote:frenchfighter wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Do minutes gained in a break not count then?
Depends if it is indicative of talent or luck.
And what is the arbiter of that?
You have to get in the break first, and presumably if you are a rider of the talent of OP or RP, that can't be easy with teams looking to control the race, then you have to have the right companions and size of group which is an element of luck and then you need to drive a big enough gap.
Porte fully deserved his high placing because it was more of a split in the peloton in truly atrocious conditions that caught the big teams napping (there were 55 riders in it!). Pereiro gained over 10 minutes as a rider everybody knew could climb and still be strong over 3 weeks. You still have to defend the jersey too.
Put it this way, Voeckler in 2004, luck or talent? And why is it any different to the above examples?
I wouldn't put that Giro breakaway down as luck - that was a rare example of pure racing. A superb day to watch the race.
Of course a result is a result but for me some are more equal than others.Contador is the Greatest0 -
Porte wasn't given 15 minutes ahead of Evans and the likes if he was any threat to the race. And it's not as he was winning that stage with ease. He was, in fact, dropped. Like he was dropped on any other mountainous stages.
Well done being in that breakaway - but he wasn't the 7th strongest rider in that peloton.
Just like Oscar Pereiro wasn't the second strongest rider in the peloton Tour2006.0 -
I still can't believe there are those who think Sky made a mistake in keeping Froome on a leash during the Tour. Wiggins had yellow and nothing short of a crash or illness would have lost it at that point. Even if the worst had happened they would have won the Tour anyway. That is a situation that most teams would kill for and if they found themselves in it they certainly wouldn't risk messing it up by allowing Froome to bugger off up the road, making the race more difficult and possibly leading to Wiggins blowing up. All the time still running the risk that Froome's attack would fail anyway.
They could have lost the whole shooting match just for a possible Froome stage win. From a spectator's viewpoint it would have been exciting, but tactically it would have been idiotic and all the people who had been saying Sky should do it would have been laughing at Sky because it failed.
Anyway...
Wiggins is a great champion.
Froome is well on the way to being one."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
ThomThom wrote:Porte wasn't given 15 minutes ahead of Evans and the likes if he was any threat to the race. And it's not as he was winning that stage with ease. He was, in fact, dropped. Like he was dropped on any other mountainous stages.
Well done being in that breakaway - but he wasn't the 7th strongest rider in that peloton.
Just like Oscar Pereiro wasn't the second strongest rider in the peloton Tour2006.
Just as well the measure of GT placing isn't who is the strongest then."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Talking of Porte... he's somebody i'd really like to see have the chance to make a real name for himself, hopefully he'll get that at Paris-Nice.
He's clearly a huge talent and I think in the long run he'll win some big races. He also strikes me as having a wiser head than Froome. It would be a shame if he rode his best years as a domestique de luxe."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:ThomThom wrote:Porte wasn't given 15 minutes ahead of Evans and the likes if he was any threat to the race. And it's not as he was winning that stage with ease. He was, in fact, dropped. Like he was dropped on any other mountainous stages.
Well done being in that breakaway - but he wasn't the 7th strongest rider in that peloton.
Just like Oscar Pereiro wasn't the second strongest rider in the peloton Tour2006.
Just as well the measure of GT placing isn't who is the strongest then.
Definitely not. And I haven't said so. People just argue that Porte's Giro results should somehow be considered as well when comparing him to Froome's result. That's quite weak if you ask me.0 -
ThomThom wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:ThomThom wrote:Porte wasn't given 15 minutes ahead of Evans and the likes if he was any threat to the race. And it's not as he was winning that stage with ease. He was, in fact, dropped. Like he was dropped on any other mountainous stages.
Well done being in that breakaway - but he wasn't the 7th strongest rider in that peloton.
Just like Oscar Pereiro wasn't the second strongest rider in the peloton Tour2006.
Just as well the measure of GT placing isn't who is the strongest then.
Definitely not. And I haven't said so. People just argue that Porte's Giro results should somehow be considered as well when comparing him to Froome's result. That's quite weak if you ask me.
I disagree. Especially on the Porte example. History is full of riders who got good results by gaining time where they had no right to and then lost it slowly."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Nevermind... I have already discussed this for like 3 pages and I can feel I'm not going anywhere here and I'm off to work now.
But you'd almost think that the people at Sky, who get paid a lot of money to know something about cycling, must have a reason to place Porte lower in the hierarchy than Froome. You'd almost think that's because they believe that he is, in fact, not as good as Froome - which every result since Froome got his breakthrough also proves.
I'll finish as I started; Porte isn't and will never be as good as Froome and all my reasons for that can be found on the previous pages.
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ThomThom wrote:EPO Delivery Man wrote:Wiggins maybe be a bit boring compared to Contador but at least hes clean.
No one on this forum can tell. Many things are favouring Bradley, some don't - but damn.. this particular sentence is really not working out for me.
Why? you have inside info? do tell0 -
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ThomThom wrote:Nevermind... I have already discussed this for like 3 pages and I can feel I'm not going anywhere here and I'm off to work now.
But you'd almost think that the people at Sky, who get paid a lot of money to know something about cycling, must have a reason to place Porte lower in the hierarchy than Froome. You'd almost think that's because they believe that he is, in fact, not as good as Froome - which every result since Froome got his breakthrough also proves.
I'll finish as I started; Porte isn't and will never be as good as Froome and all my reasons for that can be found on the previous pages.
Have a good day at work.0 -
Yeh, Have a nice day and you made an interesting point which could well be right.EPO Delivery Man wrote:
Have a good day at work.ThomThom wrote:Nevermind... I have already discussed this for like 3 pages and I can feel I'm not going anywhere here and I'm off to work now.
I'll finish as I started; Porte isn't and will never be as good as Froome and all my reasons for that can be found on the previous pages.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
ThomThom wrote:Nevermind... I have already discussed this for like 3 pages and I can feel I'm not going anywhere here and I'm off to work now.
But you'd almost think that the people at Sky, who get paid a lot of money to know something about cycling, must have a reason to place Porte lower in the hierarchy than Froome. You'd almost think that's because they believe that he is, in fact, not as good as Froome - which every result since Froome got his breakthrough also proves.
I'll finish as I started; Porte isn't and will never be as good as Froome and all my reasons for that can be found on the previous pages.
We went off track from the original question to which I was originally responding - god, was it really only 24 hours ago, it feels like days - which was whether Wiggins would have won the Tour without Froome. My view was/is that Sky would have had Porte in the Froome role and I think he would have done very well, with all the planning and training through the spring geared around him being in that role. At no point am I saying that I think Porte's better than Froome right now. He might not have finished 2nd like Froome, and maybe Wiggo's lead over whoever had finished 2nd, wouldnt have been +3mins. But I maintain that he would have done a very fine job helping Wiggo win.0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:ThomThom wrote:Nevermind... I have already discussed this for like 3 pages and I can feel I'm not going anywhere here and I'm off to work now.
But you'd almost think that the people at Sky, who get paid a lot of money to know something about cycling, must have a reason to place Porte lower in the hierarchy than Froome. You'd almost think that's because they believe that he is, in fact, not as good as Froome - which every result since Froome got his breakthrough also proves.
I'll finish as I started; Porte isn't and will never be as good as Froome and all my reasons for that can be found on the previous pages.
We went off track from the original question to which I was originally responding - god, was it really only 24 hours ago, it feels like days - which was whether Wiggins would have won the Tour without Froome. My view was/is that Sky would have had Porte in the Froome role and I think he would have done very well, with all the planning and training through the spring geared around him being in that role. At no point am I saying that I think Porte's better than Froome right now. He might not have finished 2nd like Froome, and maybe Wiggo's lead over whoever had finished 2nd, wouldnt have been +3mins. But I maintain that he would have done a very fine job helping Wiggo win.
You also need to factor into the argument regarding Porte's performance in the TdF that Sky lost one of their mountain diesels before the mountains started, Sivtsov - tactics may have been different and Porte wouldnt have dropped off as early as he would have had a man in front doing part of his pull.0 -
Porte was top 10 in that Giro even without the time gained in the break, wasn't he?0
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Everyone who is caught (and convicted) is a cheat.SecretSqirrel wrote:Do you think that everybody who cheats is caught?
Otherwise it is benefit of the doubt - innocent until proven guilty and all that.http://www.georgesfoundation.org
http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/0 -
Talking of the 2010 Giro, whatever happened to David Arroyo?"I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0
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Like most riders. After they leave Riis their results and performances go downhill.
Contador is the Greatest0 -
Contador is the Greatest0
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inkyfingers wrote:I still can't believe there are those who think Sky made a mistake in keeping Froome on a leash during the Tour. Wiggins had yellow and nothing short of a crash or illness would have lost it at that point. Even if the worst had happened they would have won the Tour anyway. That is a situation that most teams would kill for and if they found themselves in it they certainly wouldn't risk messing it up by allowing Froome to bugger off up the road, making the race more difficult and possibly leading to Wiggins blowing up. All the time still running the risk that Froome's attack would fail anyway.
They could have lost the whole shooting match just for a possible Froome stage win. From a spectator's viewpoint it would have been exciting, but tactically it would have been idiotic and all the people who had been saying Sky should do it would have been laughing at Sky because it failed.
Anyway...
Wiggins is a great champion.
Froome is well on the way to being one.
I felt the one mistake that Wiggo made was going into dreamworld in the final km of Stage 17 to Peyragourds (not that you could blame him for this) when he knew he was going to take the tour. If Bradley had held the emotion back he could have let Fenton off the leash, he would have looked magnaminous and we wouldn't have to see Valverde on the podium.
Absolutely concur Bradley is a great champion.0
