Is Bradley Wiggins a great champion?

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  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    EPO Delivery Man wrote:
    Wiggins maybe be a bit boring compared to Contador but at least hes clean.

    You don't know that he's clean.

    TBF he hasn't failed a doping test though. Contador has.
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  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    I thought we were over this bit about failing tests long ago?
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,122
    mroli wrote:
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    EPO Delivery Man wrote:
    Wiggins maybe be a bit boring compared to Contador but at least hes clean.

    You don't know that he's clean.

    TBF he hasn't failed a doping test though. Contador has.

    Contador may not have tested positive if his sample had not been sent to the Cologne Lab. Do we know how many other rider samples have that 'special' treatment? Not saying that Wiggo would have been found out, but Contador was found because he was targeted.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Targeted by whom? Certainly not Fat Pat and the UCI who were a very reluctant joint party to WADA in the CAS appeal to overturn Contador's let-off by the Spanish fed
  • silverpigeon
    silverpigeon Posts: 327
    Gabbo wrote:
    I suppose we can only wait and see then. See how Wiggins fares in the Giro and whether Froome can meet some peoples expectations by seeing off Contador in the Tour.

    Not saying Bradley is NOT a great champion, just questioning it.

    What exactly do you mean though? A champion of what? An Olympic champion? He won a gold medal in 2004 (and a silver, and a bronze). And then again in 2008. And then again in 2012. So yes I'd say he was a pretty good Olympic champion.

    Or do you mean a road cycling champion? Well he won(and defended) a few titles in 2012, Paris Nice, Tour de Romandie, Dauphine etc as well as the TDF (which is apparently, a really hard race). I don't honestly see how anybody can argue with that sort of palmares and say Wiggins is not a road cycling champion.

    Or do you have to win more that one Tour to be considered a great champion?

    Who would you describe as a great champion?
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  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,122
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Targeted by whom? Certainly not Fat Pat and the UCI who were a very reluctant joint party to WADA in the CAS appeal to overturn Contador's let-off by the Spanish fed

    Don't know TBH :oops: I had assumed that is why his sample had been sent to Cologne? Maybe it was a random selection. I don't recall a reports on why exactly Contador's sample had been sent to Cologne, it was the only lab that could find such a miniscule amount of Clen. May be somebody here can advise on that one.

    Anyway FWIW I think Wiggins is a great champion.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    edhornby wrote:
    no rider has ever won Paris Nice, Dauphine, Romandie and the Tour in the same year
    no rider has won the Tour and Olympic Gold in the same year
    6 olympic Golds - multiple world champ on the track
    is he a great champion = of course he bloody well is
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    20 Feb 2013 11:31
    He was already a "great champion" before last year - one of the greatest, in fact.
    Just happened to be on the track.
    Gabbo wrote:
    Sorry if this topic has been discussed but am wondering what your opinions on him as a champion are?

    I'm a relatively new follower in the sport (as you can probably tell).
    Yes we can tell because you ask a stupid question, combined with your reasoning..
    The two people above have the right answer with the rest of the thread as bullshit because there is a difference between winning a race and winning a Championship. (slender though it might be)

    Bradley Wiggins is a World Champion in his own right (3 times Pursuit) but whether he is "as" great a champion as Hugh Porter who was World Pursuit Champion 4 times over 5,000 meters but because he was a Professional and not allowed to ride the Olympics of 4,000 meters. So Bradley is also a Great Olympic Champion.
    He is also the "Winner" of a Grand Tour called the Tour de France and as stated above the winner last year of several other races but not a World Road Champion.
    Bradley Wiggins will be in the Hall of Fame as a Great All-rounder and Champion as his Palmares will show that.
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  • thegibdog
    thegibdog Posts: 2,106
    ThomThom wrote:
    thegibdog wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Would Wiggins have won if Froome wasn't there?
    Of course he wouldn't.
    You genuinely think Wiggins wouldn't have won if Froome wasn't there? Interested to hear your reasoning.
    Why did you remove Richmond's quote? It was Richmond's post I replied to.
    Sorry, assumed the "he" was Froome. Were you an about Porte or Pate?
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  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    edited February 2013
    Wouldn't say I was on about anyone. Just thought Rich stretched it a little saying Porte would just do what Froome did for Bradley. I don't agree with that as I don't think Porte is anything close to Froome's level and ever will be.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    We shall see...

    I have Porte down as a future Giro winner

    8)
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Fight! Fight!

    I have Porte down as a future Giro winner

    8)


    If he gets 10 minutes from a breakaway again it might happen :)
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    ThomThom wrote:
    I don't think Porte is anything close to Froome's level and ever will be.
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Fight! Fight!

    I have Porte down as a future Giro winner

    8)

    Darn my toddler typing skills - too quick for me, RR...

    Obviously not party to any inducements dangled in front of Porte's eyes, but if he keeps his sh!t together at Sky - and they do good by him - I reckon he's next in line to a GC throne once Son of Kilburn and Fenton have done what they've got to do in 2013. His is a phenomenal talent that has been fully utilised by the GC contenders he's ridden for over the last few years (Bertie, before Sky). With the top berths for Sky's moveable feast looking largely snapped up for 2013 (although La Vuelta...?), I reckon Porte will be offered leadership for Giro/Vuelta 2014. This year will see him only get stronger.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    edited February 2013
    He's older than Froome as well. Unless Chris stagnates completely how and what on earth suggests that he should ever come close - or even above - Froome's level.
  • Gabbo
    Gabbo Posts: 864
    deejay wrote:
    edhornby wrote:
    no rider has ever won Paris Nice, Dauphine, Romandie and the Tour in the same year
    no rider has won the Tour and Olympic Gold in the same year
    6 olympic Golds - multiple world champ on the track
    is he a great champion = of course he bloody well is
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    20 Feb 2013 11:31
    He was already a "great champion" before last year - one of the greatest, in fact.
    Just happened to be on the track.
    Gabbo wrote:
    Sorry if this topic has been discussed but am wondering what your opinions on him as a champion are?

    I'm a relatively new follower in the sport (as you can probably tell).
    Yes we can tell because you ask a stupid question, combined with your reasoning..
    The two people above have the right answer with the rest of the thread as bullshit because there is a difference between winning a race and winning a Championship. (slender though it might be)

    Stupid question yet it's managed 4 pages. And what reasoning have I came up with? I've asked the question and as someone rightly said, opened a can of worms. This is to find the reasoning from others as to WHY Bradley Wiggins is a great champion.

    I never said he was not a great champion, I just questioned it.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    mroli wrote:
    TBF he hasn't failed a doping test though. Contador has.

    Please tell me you didn't really post that...

    We're surely not going to use 'never failed a test' as conclusive proof of innocence are we?
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited February 2013
    ThomThom wrote:
    He's older than Froome as well. Unless Chris stagnates completely how and what on earth suggests that he should ever come close - or even above - Froome's level.


    Porte's 5 months older. Dont think we can call that a big age difference. Also compare his palmares to Froome's up until the '11 Vuelta (tho looking just now at Froome's, god knows what the hell the Anatomic Jock Race was/is :shock: )
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    He's older than Froome as well. Unless Chris stagnates completely how and what on earth suggests that he should ever come close - or even above - Froome's level.


    Porte's 5 months older. Dont think we can call that a big age difference. Also compare his palmares to Froome's up until the '11 Vuelta.

    But if Porte is considered 'phenomenal talent' what is Froome then?

    I know, of the two, who has developed the most in the last years. Why should that be any different?

    I might be wrong, but it seemed like you (or perhaps more OCDuPalais) thought he was a bit younger than 28?

    I thought he was younger myself, I have to admit.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    I'm not saying that Froome isnt a great talent, I'm just arguing that Porte is as well.

    Porte had his breakthrough year in '10. Sky came courting and Riis told Porte and Sky in no uncertain terms that there'd be no breaking of Porte's contract. Saxo then used him as a workhouse in '11, and gave him little chances of his own apart from the mighty Tour of Denmark at the like, and his confidence took a bit of a bashing.

    Like OCDP, I think he'll be a GT leader next year.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    ThomThom wrote:
    He's older than Froome as well. Unless Chris stagnates completely how and what on earth suggests that he should ever come close - or even above - Froome's level.


    Porte's 5 months older. Dont think we can call that a big age difference. Also compare his palmares to Froome's up until the '11 Vuelta.

    But if Porte is considered 'phenomenal talent' what is Froome then?

    I know, of the two, who has developed the most in the last years. Why should that be any different?

    I might be wrong, but it seemed like you (or perhaps more OCDuPalais) thought he was a bit younger than 28?

    I thought he was younger myself, I have to admit.


    Was a tri-tard till he concentrated on cycling. Only joined ProTour in '10, and then went and came 7th on GC and won the white jersey at the Giro. So yeah, he's a big talent, just that Saxo didnt help him build on that in '11.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Still, Porte hasn't placed a poo on the top the heads of genuine GC-riders and mountain climbers like Froome has.

    And as I wrote earlier - he would never have been in the top of the GC in the Giro if he hadn't been in a breakaway. He was, in fact, fairly avarage on each mountain stages. (still did good for his age, mind).
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    Porte's TT-ing was already "in the bag" and he's been working on his climbing over the last 18 months (lost a lot of the puppy fat during Winter '11/12). What better way to learn the ropes than at the sharp end of the lead group at the key moments of the mountain stages in a GT but without the pressure of being leader?
    And if you want age to be a relevance, he won a stage race a full year before Froome...

    Ultimately, it'll be with the brutal truth of retrospection that careers will be assessed; but 2 years ago there were about 8 people on the planet who ever imagined that Froome would amount to much: 2 years ago, Porte was in pink in the Giro...
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    ...At least now we're addressing proper questions, rather than the nonsense thread title (that I've accidentally added bulk to paying attention to it. There must be a readily drum-upable graph to depict how much of any thread that makes it over 5 pages consists of posts agreeing/disagreeing/trolling/misunderstanding/deviating/denying its right to exist/etc...?)
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Porte's TT-ing was already "in the bag" and he's been working on his climbing over the last 18 months (lost a lot of the puppy fat during Winter '11/12). What better way to learn the ropes than at the sharp end of the lead group at the key moments of the mountain stages in a GT but without the pressure of being leader?
    And if you want age to be a relevance, he won a stage race a full year before Froome...

    Ultimately, it'll be with the brutal truth of retrospection that careers will be assessed; but 2 years ago there were about 8 people on the planet who ever imagined that Froome would amount to much: 2 years ago, Porte was in pink in the Giro...

    That might very well be true, but Porte is still not as good as Froome which was what I didn't agree on to begin with.

    Don't know why you keep using the Giro as an example. It's like saying Oscar Pereiro was the strongest rider in 2006 when there was a very simple reason for him being 2nd (ultimately 1st). Minutes from a breakaway.
  • apriliarider
    apriliarider Posts: 222
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    mroli wrote:
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    EPO Delivery Man wrote:
    Wiggins maybe be a bit boring compared to Contador but at least hes clean.

    You don't know that he's clean.

    TBF he hasn't failed a doping test though. Contador has.

    Contador may not have tested positive if his sample had not been sent to the Cologne Lab. Do we know how many other rider samples have that 'special' treatment? Not saying that Wiggo would have been found out, but Contador was found because he was targeted.

    Utter flannel - he was found out because he cheated
    At least his performances post ban are in the realms of "believable"
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    In one of the Tour of Oman stages Porte was up the road from Froome... waited for Froome.. and then pulled Froome back up to the front group.

    I think this provides all the evidence we need that Porte is the 'true champion'.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ALIHISGREAT wrote:
    In one of the Tour of Oman stages Porte was up the road from Froome... waited for Froome.. and then pulled Froome back up to the front group.

    I think this provides all the evidence we need that Porte is the 'true champion'.


    In fact my chant is going to be #FreePorte during the Tour

    (will also have #FreeUran and #FreeHenao in reserve)
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,317
    Class defence - like it: no concessions.
    ThomThom wrote:
    [whatever anyone else said - don't care, wasn't paying attention]
    ...That might very well be true, but Porte is still not as good as Froome which was what I didn't agree on to begin with.

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  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Eh...?
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,122
    apriliarider wrote:
    SecretSqirrel wrote:
    mroli wrote:
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    EPO Delivery Man wrote:
    Wiggins maybe be a bit boring compared to Contador but at least hes clean.

    You don't know that he's clean.

    TBF he hasn't failed a doping test though. Contador has.

    Contador may not have tested positive if his sample had not been sent to the Cologne Lab. Do we know how many other rider samples have that 'special' treatment? Not saying that Wiggo would have been found out, but Contador was found because he was targeted.

    Utter flannel - he was found out because he cheated
    At least his performances post ban are in the realms of "believable"

    Do you think that everybody who cheats is caught?
  • fastandfurry
    fastandfurry Posts: 138
    ThomThom wrote:
    Still, Porte hasn't placed a poo on the top the heads of genuine GC-riders and mountain climbers like Froome has.

    And as I wrote earlier - he would never have been in the top of the GC in the Giro if he hadn't been in a breakaway. He was, in fact, fairly avarage on each mountain stages. (still did good for his age, mind).

    Personally, I suspect Porte might be stronger, but also a better domestique - by pulling evenly rather than surging he allows people to sit comfortably on his wheel while he's pulling pretty hard. Froome, on the other hand, keeps on losing focus, slowing down, then speeding up - 'bouncing the elastic' - which makes it harder to follow. I think that's why Froome was generally riding behind Brad in the tour until the last possible moment, and why he kept dropping him - not the sign of a domestique doing a good job!

    Bear in mind Porte was sitting on the front stopping attacks and dragging back big names all the way through the tour. I think with some work on explosive power he'll be a top GC rider - although he might be better off heading to Greededge to get the team leadership he deserves.

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