Edge 800 useless for anything it's designed for...

245

Comments

  • FFS. Garmin (nor any business with an ounce of common sense) do not price their products at what it costs to make them, plus a bit. They charge what people will pay. In the car satnav world, theres a lot of competition so prices are forced down. In the cycling world, there's virtually none so prices - stay with me here - are high.

    This lesson can be found on page 1 of "economics for dummies". If you are unhappy with the situation, I suggest you start your own company making bike satnavs, undercut Garmin by 10% and retire to the Bahamas in a couple of years time.
  • philwint
    philwint Posts: 763
    What I'm struggling with is what you'd use the "how to i get to x" for on a bike. In the car i use it all the time - all i want to know is the quickest/shortest/whatever route home, or to meeting or wherever....

    But on the bike it's not like that. I want to plot a nice interesting route of xx miles/xx hours almost always starting and ending at home.

    So much pouring over virtual maps on the Garmin site, working out the plan for tomorrow, then when I'm happy download it into my device. Next day follow the arrow.

    The only time i can think of that it might be interesting for it to pick a route is if i suddenly wanted to bail while out riding and wanted the "best" way home. But - and there had to be a but.... in that case I'd want to pick the route anyway - if i'm bailing its because I've had a serious mechanical, or am feeling shit. In both cases the "sat nav" idea of best might not be mine e.g. if it wanted to take me up a huge hill.

    So comparing the car sat nav with the bike sat nav is like comparing a cooker with a fridge. The both use the same thing - GPS signals for the sat nav & electricity for the kitchen appliances - but do completely different things with them.
  • Scrumple
    Scrumple Posts: 2,665
    FFS. Garmin (nor any business with an ounce of common sense) do not price their products at what it costs to make them, plus a bit. They charge what people will pay. In the car satnav world, theres a lot of competition so prices are forced down. In the cycling world, there's virtually none so prices - stay with me here - are high.

    This lesson can be found on page 1 of "economics for dummies". If you are unhappy with the situation, I suggest you start your own company making bike satnavs, undercut Garmin by 10% and retire to the Bahamas in a couple of years time.

    exactly

    complaining about being ripped off is as stupid as not understanding why!
  • MattC59
    MattC59 Posts: 5,408
    This is brilliant !
    :lol::lol::lol:
    Science adjusts it’s beliefs based on what’s observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    I have a VERY small understanding of economics, I employ more than 400 people. What some of you are failing to understand is that I am not moaning about the product, or indeed what it can or can not do. The issue is that it is quite clear to anyone with even an I.Q of 20 that cyclists get "stung" in almost every sector and this department is no exception. The only thing I find so odd is the amount of you guys who not only accept it, but actually fight the corner of those taking you for a ride (please do excuse the pun there folks)

    OK< so we all agree the 800 will measure many things, cadence, heart rate, route planning etc but when they charge extortionate prices for the cyclist sector of their business which is not portrayed within other sectors of their business someone (me) will feel the need to express his/her thoughts on the matter.

    I could mention that they do the same with the flying nav kit but firstly I didnt really want to talk about my other singular hobby and secondly, they have recently dropped prices.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech wrote:
    I have a VERY small understanding of economics, I employ more than 400 people. What some of you are failing to understand is that I am not moaning about the product, or indeed what it can or can not do. The issue is that it is quite clear to anyone with even an I.Q of 20 that cyclists get "stung" in almost every sector and this department is no exception. The only thing I find so odd is the amount of you guys who not only accept it, but actually fight the corner of those taking you for a ride (please do excuse the pun there folks)

    OK< so we all agree the 800 will measure many things, cadence, heart rate, route planning etc but when they charge extortionate prices for the cyclist sector of their business which is not portrayed within other sectors of their business someone (me) will feel the need to express his/her thoughts on the matter.

    I could mention that they do the same with the flying nav kit but firstly I didnt really want to talk about my other singular hobby and secondly, they have recently dropped prices.

    Again. They charge cyclists more because cyclists will pay it. A Garmin isn't a necessity - if you think they're overcharging, don't but one. Simple.
  • philwint wrote:
    What I'm struggling with is what you'd use the "how to i get to x" for on a bike. In the car i use it all the time - all i want to know is the quickest/shortest/whatever route home, or to meeting or wherever....

    I may have been fortunate that I had my Garmin 800 before I ever had a car that had SatNav and I never really trusted any maps that my iPhone provided when travelling. I even took my Edge 800 to Paris with me to help navigate the streets on foot as I have City Navigator maps and I knew that my iPhone data rates would be costly for being outwith UK.

    My current car now has inbuilt SatNav and I like this when I am in a city/town that is unknown to me, I also like to use it to calculate 'quickest way home' but I have no complaints about what my Edge 800 does in terms of it's navigation, what I like even more is the stats it gives me in terms of fitness, speed, cadence, HR, temperature, ascent/descent, etc and these are also some of the other major reasons that I purchased it for rather than just navigation.


    "I like riding in my car, it's not quite a Jaguar."
  • VTech wrote:
    I have a VERY small understanding of economics, I employ more than 400 people. What some of you are failing to understand is that I am not moaning about the product, or indeed what it can or can not do. The issue is that it is quite clear to anyone with even an I.Q of 20 that cyclists get "stung" in almost every sector and this department is no exception. The only thing I find so odd is the amount of you guys who not only accept it, but actually fight the corner of those taking you for a ride (please do excuse the pun there folks)

    OK< so we all agree the 800 will measure many things, cadence, heart rate, route planning etc but when they charge extortionate prices for the cyclist sector of their business which is not portrayed within other sectors of their business someone (me) will feel the need to express his/her thoughts on the matter.

    I could mention that they do the same with the flying nav kit but firstly I didnt really want to talk about my other singular hobby and secondly, they have recently dropped prices.

    So why has no other manufacturer like Tom Tom stepped in amd massively undercut Garmin to take over the cycle market?
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Brakeless wrote:
    VTech wrote:
    I have a VERY small understanding of economics, I employ more than 400 people. What some of you are failing to understand is that I am not moaning about the product, or indeed what it can or can not do. The issue is that it is quite clear to anyone with even an I.Q of 20 that cyclists get "stung" in almost every sector and this department is no exception. The only thing I find so odd is the amount of you guys who not only accept it, but actually fight the corner of those taking you for a ride (please do excuse the pun there folks)

    OK< so we all agree the 800 will measure many things, cadence, heart rate, route planning etc but when they charge extortionate prices for the cyclist sector of their business which is not portrayed within other sectors of their business someone (me) will feel the need to express his/her thoughts on the matter.

    I could mention that they do the same with the flying nav kit but firstly I didnt really want to talk about my other singular hobby and secondly, they have recently dropped prices.

    So why has no other manufacturer like Tom Tom stepped in amd massively undercut Garmin to take over the cycle market?

    I could not say for certain but it may be to do with the fact that tomtom has been working with auto manufacturers for incar live update systems.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech wrote:
    I could not say for certain but it may be to do with the fact that tomtom has been working with auto manufacturers for incar live update systems.

    Can you tell me your thoughts on the fact that a top of the range standalone satnav is about £250, whereas if you try to get the same thing added to your company car they charge you two grand?
  • Also, if I get a can of Coke from the vending machine at work, I get charged 70p, whereas if I buy lorryload direct from the distributor it costs a few pence per can? I feel a letter to Martin Lewis coming on...
  • DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE COST OF STAMPS GRRRRRRRRR
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    VTech wrote:
    I could not say for certain but it may be to do with the fact that tomtom has been working with auto manufacturers for incar live update systems.

    Can you tell me your thoughts on the fact that a top of the range standalone satnav is about £250, whereas if you try to get the same thing added to your company car they charge you two grand?


    Absolutely, like with cyclists, they have you where they want you and as most car owners would agree, upgrades from the dealer after purchasing a vehicle are far more costly that at the time of purchase or within a purchase package.
    The difference is, most car owners understand this.

    I find it odd how not only do a large proportion of cyclists accept this fact, not only do they go further and back the people who are ripping them but they then go forward and justify all of these weird and wonderful actions by suggesting that its to do with free trade and argue the toss with the leading argument that it happens in other circles.

    Thats like saying its ok for a man in his 50's to marry a 12 year old because in certain african countries this is seen as normal.

    Come on guys, get the coffee on and take a whiff.....
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Also, if I get a can of Coke from the vending machine at work, I get charged 70p, whereas if I buy lorryload direct from the distributor it costs a few pence per can? I feel a letter to Martin Lewis coming on...

    Another meagre argument and if you dont mind, this is making me feel like im trying to make my 7 year old understand the issue.
    At a vending machine we all understand that the price will be higher, there is a cost to run the machine, maintenance, ground space used etc but if the price were £7 I reckon you would complain.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE COST OF STAMPS GRRRRRRRRR

    Actually, one of the best value items you can buy, for less than a £ you can send a letter to most places in the world, Now thats value !!!!

    Funny how you condone selling a software patch for the same price as a complete device with that very same software patch installed and yet you moan at the price of a stamp which enables you to send private correspondence to anyone on the planet.. OK, i accept it, im in the wrong.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech wrote:
    Also, if I get a can of Coke from the vending machine at work, I get charged 70p, whereas if I buy lorryload direct from the distributor it costs a few pence per can? I feel a letter to Martin Lewis coming on...

    Another meagre argument and if you dont mind, this is making me feel like im a 7 year old trying understand the issue.

    So what is it that you find tricky about a company with a virtual monopoly choosing to rip people off? And why do you think cyclists aren't aware of this?
  • VTech wrote:
    DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE COST OF STAMPS GRRRRRRRRR

    Actually, one of the best value items you can buy, for less than a £ you can send a letter to most places in the world, Now thats value !!!!

    Funny how you condone selling a software patch for the same price as a complete device with that very same software patch installed and yet you moan at the price of a stamp which enables you to send private correspondence to anyone on the planet.. OK, i accept it, im in the wrong.

    I know. I might use this very service to send you a sarcasm detector; it appears yours is broken.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    VTech wrote:
    Also, if I get a can of Coke from the vending machine at work, I get charged 70p, whereas if I buy lorryload direct from the distributor it costs a few pence per can? I feel a letter to Martin Lewis coming on...

    Another meagre argument and if you dont mind, this is making me feel like im a 7 year old trying understand the issue.

    So what is it that you find tricky about a company with a virtual monopoly choosing to rip people off? And why do you think cyclists aren't aware of this?

    Im not saying they are not aware of it, I just find it odd how some people justify and back them up for doing it.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    VTech wrote:
    DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE COST OF STAMPS GRRRRRRRRR

    Actually, one of the best value items you can buy, for less than a £ you can send a letter to most places in the world, Now thats value !!!!

    Funny how you condone selling a software patch for the same price as a complete device with that very same software patch installed and yet you moan at the price of a stamp which enables you to send private correspondence to anyone on the planet.. OK, i accept it, im in the wrong.

    I know. I might use this very service to send you a sarcasm detector; it appears yours is broken.

    I eagerly await the delivery :P
    Living MY dream.
  • It's not backing them up it's called understanding the situation.If there was loads of money to be made from selling cheaper sat navs for bikes then some one like Tom Tom would step in and prices would fall - simple market forces. Bryton make less expensive units but they're not as nice as Garmin. Yes Garmin are expensive but until someone else steps in they 'own' the market. It's up to them to charge what they wish and they are not a service they are a profit making company,if you're not happy paying what they wish to charge don't buy one - simple. If you owned Garmin would you sell something for £200 when people would pay £400?
  • I'm not backing Garmin specifically; I just find it difficult to get personally offended at the laws of economics. And if I didn't, I can't see why I'd single Garmin out as different from the vending machine proprietors and in-built satnav suppliers of the world.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    Brakeless wrote:
    It's not backing them up it's called understanding the situation.If there was loads of money to be made from selling cheaper sat navs for bikes then some one like Tom Tom would step in and prices would fall - simple market forces. Bryton make less expensive units but they're not as nice as Garmin. Yes Garmin are expensive but until someone else steps in they 'own' the market. It's up to them to charge what they wish and they are not a service they are a profit making company,if you're not happy paying what they wish to charge don't buy one - simple. If you owned Garmin would you sell something for £200 when people would pay £400?

    Now thats the perfect statement, the one ive been waiting for.
    With that I agree 100%, I just dont like it thats all.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    I'm not backing Garmin specifically; I just find it difficult to get personally offended at the laws of economics. And if I didn't, I can't see why I'd single Garmin out as different from the vending machine proprietors and in-built satnav suppliers of the world.

    I never wanted to make it sound like Garmin were being singled out, I specifically said several times that I personally believe it to be widespread in the Bike business.
    I do think there is value but I also believe there is a huge amount of hype, artificially made to cause hysteria over certain products to make people buy products knowing that they will buy anything.
    I liken it to the gym business where there has been for years a case of thinking that you can sell any old tat to those seeking an end result.
    Living MY dream.
  • rich164h
    rich164h Posts: 433
    I really don't understand this assumption that it's too expensive and that all cyclists are being ripped off. That's only true if you as an individual don't value the benefit that the device gives you vs the asking price. For me, I think I bought mine 2 years ago and it has quite simply been the best value piece of cycling equipment that I've ever bought in terms of how useful it's been and the difference it has made to both my performance on the bike and the enjoyment of my hobby. To my mind there's no doubt about that, and that includes the upgrades I've made to things like wheels / tyres / saddles / turbo trainer etc i.e. all the things that people will tell you to upgrade in the 101 different "what should I spend my money on" questions that you see on this forum. If you don't need most of the features and the ones that you would use are at best "nice to haves" then yes, of course it's going to seem expensive, but that's not the way it is for me where there is virtually no feature that I don't genuinely find useful. In fact, as I've said above, the one feature that you're complaining about being missing is the one feature that I would find least useful if it did work with the maps that I've got installed!

    It's not a case of defending Garmin per sey, it's just that if you want a device that offers everything that this device does, there quite simply is no real competition. There's the Bryton or Memory Map devices which are cheaper, but honestly there's a reason why that's the case. Try one and you'll see. If they however offer you the features that you want then fine, go for one of these instead and save some cash, but for me I know that the Garmin is the device that offers me what I want and that the bryton doesn't so buying one of those instead wouldn't be money saved.

    Cherry picking one feature and saying that there's a completely different product in a completely different market sector that offers that same feature at a lot less is a ridiculous statement. If that's the way you view things, well you might as well have said that as the Garmin Edge 800 has a field for the time of day, that the whole thing is a rip off because you could get the same feature from a £10 timex!! In both cases you're not comparing apples with apples.

    Now, if you were talking about cyclists being ripped off in terms of clothing prices....well that's a whole different thing.
  • VTech wrote:
    I'm not backing Garmin specifically; I just find it difficult to get personally offended at the laws of economics. And if I didn't, I can't see why I'd single Garmin out as different from the vending machine proprietors and in-built satnav suppliers of the world.

    I never wanted to make it sound like Garmin were being singled out, I specifically said several times that I personally believe it to be widespread in the Bike business.
    I do think there is value but I also believe there is a huge amount of hype, artificially made to cause hysteria over certain products to make people buy products knowing that they will buy anything.
    I liken it to the gym business where there has been for years a case of thinking that you can sell any old tat to those seeking an end result.

    You're not wrong; but taking advantage of the uninformed is just about the most successful business model going. Look at Apple or the financial services industry. I work in the latter, and I can say with total certainty that if it wasn't for complete idiots every bank in the UK would go bust in about 0.4 seconds.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    rich164h wrote:
    I really don't understand this assumption that it's too expensive and that all cyclists are being ripped off. That's only true if you as an individual don't value the benefit that the device gives you vs the asking price. For me, I think I bought mine 2 years ago and it has quite simply been the best value piece of cycling equipment that I've ever bought in terms of how useful it's been and the difference it has made to both my performance on the bike and the enjoyment of my hobby. To my mind there's no doubt about that, and that includes the upgrades I've made to things like wheels / tyres / saddles / turbo trainer etc i.e. all the things that people will tell you to upgrade in the 101 different "what should I spend my money on" questions that you see on this forum. If you don't need most of the features and the ones that you would use are at best "nice to haves" then yes, of course it's going to seem expensive, but that's not the way it is for me where there is virtually no feature that I don't genuinely find useful. In fact, as I've said above, the one feature that you're complaining about being missing is the one feature that I would find least useful if it did work with the maps that I've got installed!

    It's not a case of defending Garmin per sey, it's just that if you want a device that offers everything that this device does, there quite simply is no real competition. There's the Bryton or Memory Map devices which are cheaper, but honestly there's a reason why that's the case. Try one and you'll see. If they however offer you the features that you want then fine, go for one of these instead and save some cash, but for me I know that the Garmin is the device that offers me what I want and that the bryton doesn't so buying one of those instead wouldn't be money saved.

    Cherry picking one feature and saying that there's a completely different product in a completely different market sector that offers that same feature at a lot less is a ridiculous statement. If that's the way you view things, well you might as well have said that as the Garmin Edge 800 has a field for the time of day, that the whole thing is a rip off because you could get the same feature from a £10 timex!! In both cases you're not comparing apples with apples.

    Now, if you were talking about cyclists being ripped off in terms of clothing prices....well that's a whole different thing.


    Totally invalid argument, im not and have not argued with the fact I paid £350 (rep £399) for the device.
    If I had made this argument then your post above would stand but instead it has no bearing because I didnt.
    In fact, my point was that due to being a cycle product they have the ability to charge more than they would/could if it were for a car.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    VTech wrote:
    I'm not backing Garmin specifically; I just find it difficult to get personally offended at the laws of economics. And if I didn't, I can't see why I'd single Garmin out as different from the vending machine proprietors and in-built satnav suppliers of the world.

    I never wanted to make it sound like Garmin were being singled out, I specifically said several times that I personally believe it to be widespread in the Bike business.
    I do think there is value but I also believe there is a huge amount of hype, artificially made to cause hysteria over certain products to make people buy products knowing that they will buy anything.
    I liken it to the gym business where there has been for years a case of thinking that you can sell any old tat to those seeking an end result.

    You're not wrong; but taking advantage of the uninformed is just about the most successful business model going. Look at Apple or the financial services industry. I work in the latter, and I can say with total certainty that if it wasn't for complete idiots every bank in the UK would go bust in about 0.4 seconds.


    Agree 100%.
    Living MY dream.
  • VTech wrote:
    In fact, my point was that due to being a cycle product they have the ability to charge more than they would/could if it were for a car.

    Its not because its for a bike, its because there happens to be no competition in satnav GPS units for bikes. If you want to buy a sh!tty mountain bike, an area of the bike industry where there is a lot of competition, then you can buy a complete bike for about £80 which surely can't be much more than it costs to produce.

    Conversely, if there was no competition in the car sector, then they'd charge 2 grand. Which, you'll note, is EXACTLY what they do when they offer you the option to build a satnav into the dashboard of your new car - precisely because there is no competition at that point.

    Its not a bike thing FFS, its everywhere.
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    My only issue with this type of thing is that as long as people buy them at the current prices the rest of us have no chance of getting them cheaper.

    If eveyone said "were not paying that much" they would have to reduce the prices.

    So yes it is all consumer bollox and you lot are costing me a fortune!!!! :-)
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • VTech
    VTech Posts: 4,736
    VTech wrote:
    In fact, my point was that due to being a cycle product they have the ability to charge more than they would/could if it were for a car.

    Its not because its for a bike, its because there happens to be no competition in satnav GPS units for bikes. If you want to buy a sh!tty mountain bike, an area of the bike industry where there is a lot of competition, then you can buy a complete bike for about £80 which surely can't be much more than it costs to produce.

    Conversely, if there was no competition in the car sector, then they'd charge 2 grand. Which, you'll note, is EXACTLY what they do when they offer you the option to build a satnav into the dashboard of your new car - precisely because there is no competition at that point.

    Its not a bike thing FFS, its everywhere.

    Another bad argument, I never suggested that it was a bike thing alone, Again, ive stated previously that it happens elsewhere but as we are on a bike forum I referred to bikes.
    Living MY dream.