Just how crucial to road cycling is THE BRAND ?

Camus

Raffles wrote:

thanks for the insult Grill you spoonfed brainwashed A-hole , I have a right to speak my mind on a public forum and i certainly do not need or require your approval.

Grill wrote:

Raffles wrote:

robbo2011 wrote:

My goodness me, the OP does seem to have a serious inferiority complex/inverse snobbery thing going on. He is also guilty of projecting his value judgements onto others. What's the point of getting wound up by what other people spend their money on? It isn't healthy.

Raffles, my advice be to stop worrying about what everybody else is doing and just get on with enjoying your cycling.

I love my cycling Rob and thats never gonna be an issue dude.

I was asked to provide proof of big brands ripping the @rse out of it with pricing and here goes
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=18628
Oakleys at asking price £187, should come with Im a gullible mug tee shirt, Ill buy a set of bolles and pocket the £177 change thanks very much, do they look £187 worth............nope and a set of the latest Assos ones will cost well over £200 :shock: and an awful lot of riders when it comes to visuals agree that they suck.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=89759

Assos long cycling pants at..................wait for it...................£306.00 :shock: :shock: :shock:
Jeezus what are that brand like, they look awful and anybody who shells out £306 deserves all they get in my opinion, go on and somebody justify how Assos can charge £306 for pants as id love to read it.

In my opinion Assos are about bleeding the money out of riders for chinese made products that cost buttons to make and their price structure is way beyond immoral. Your mileage may vary and thats your opinion, but Im stating how I feel on this one, not looking to pick fights here but opinions make for good reading and lively discussion

You're an idiot. If you want Bolles then by all means buy a set, but that doesn't mean that the Oakleys aren't worth the coin to someone else. I can certainly tell the difference in optics, and ask any optometrist who does the best prescription lenses on sports sunnies and all you'll hear is Oakley. You're not just paying for the name but all the associated R&D that is behind it.

As far as the Assos Rain Shell Knickers are concerned, you're just being silly. Why cite a low-production niche product and complain about its cost? Look at their bibshorts, tights, jerseys and all the other products they make. They fall within the same price structure as other premium cycling brands. Try comparing apples to apples if you want to be taken even the least bit seriously.

Profit is not a dirty word. The fact of the matter is that all companies need to make profit. Do you think you'd still be employed if the company you work for suddenly decided to stop making profit?

As far as justifying their prices are concerned, you are just being childish. Products are worth what people are willing to pay. Look at how many portals use fluid pricing algorithms; airlines, hotels, Amazon, etc. They adjust their pricing based upon what people are willing to pay. Assos, Oakley, et al. just give guidelines in terms of pricing (what do you think and RRP stands for), and occasionally there are reseller agreements in place in order to stop premature devaluation of said products and protect the brand image as well as the customers perceived value. Do you own any Apple products? Remind me again who is the richest company is the world?

As far as where it's made, how does that make a difference? Most of my bikes were made in Taiwan. Does that mean that it's inferior to bikes made in the US. Italy, or even here in the UK? Are you trying to imply that the Chinese are lazy and cut corners and are generally a bit shoot when compared to Europeans? Honestly...

You need to grow up and get on with your cycling. The only one here who gives a damn about what others spend their money on is you. I

The price for those bottoms is actually in Euros which comes out at a shade under 250GBP; my Assos jersey (the only piece of Assos I own) is made in Slovenia. I own a pair of Bolles and they weren't much cheaper than Oakleys, I mainly bought them because they weren't Oakleys though, because that's what everyone seems to wear/want, bit of French flare over American dominance and all. To give my tuppeneth my Assos jersey is extremely well made and I consider it to represent value for money albeit at a higher price point, but this means I expect it to last longer/perform and feel better than an item at a lower price point. Assos has a fairly long history of making cycling specific products behind them which is partly accountable for their higher price point, Rapha on the other hand don't have that heritage having only been around six years, they are a triumph of marketing, however, their products in my experience are great.

I don't get this snobbery thing and certainly don't look down on anyone in an 'inferior' bit of kit, as others have said, as long as you're out there riding that's what counts and will make the cyclist, not what gear's on the bike or on your back. Also, by no means could I afford a whole wardrobe of Assos, Rapha etc, but I do spend my money on their products when I can because they are cut better than anything else I've worn and perform brilliantly. I'd rather pay more and have less stuff than pay less and have lots of stuff of less quality. I apply this principle to work and casual clothes too, buy the best quality you can afford and try to make your wardrobe versatile and work for you, rather than subscribe to 'disposable fashion'.

Grill

Very sensible response.

Are you aware that Bolle is owned by Bushnell, an American company?

Camus

I did not know that, damn my plans have been thwarted!!

Grill

I'm fairly sure that within the next ten years every company will in fact be owned by one giant VC group. Jarden have certainly been working on it for a few years...

Camus

Nice point and in 50 years there will be one mega corp run by machines that owns the lot! Things seem to be going that way in retail anyway, specific brands with a history of manufacturing a product being brought under the umbrella of one larger parent corporation. Happens a lot in the watch/fashion world, Swatch group for instance. Seems Jarden own Volkl, I only notice as I play tennis when not cycling, don't use their racquets though.

Grill

Off the top of my head: K2, Ride, Coleman, Line, Campingaz, Marker, Oster, Marmot, and Full Tilt. Ironically they also own Bicycle and Planet Earth!

They're sneaky too as they have investment capital in rival companies like Rossignol/Dynastar/Look.

Camus

Argh, I have Look pedals! Must be the French thing again, lol. I just hope that such business practices allow brands to keep and develop their identity and individuality, rather than try and restrict/standardise them. The former is obviously in the interest of the parent corporation anyway, but I wonder whether some brands, especially in very specific areas such as cycling, wouldn't be better off trying to remain autonomous and therefore able to innovate. I guess there's potentially more capital in going with a conglomerate though. Amer sports, a Finnish parent company for example, own Wilson and Mavic, both seem to have maintained quite a good sense of brand identity.

dynamicbrick

Whilst this internet fight is fun, I dunno... I sort of preferred the 'I do flying scissor kicks on other cyclists who don't say hello to me'.

It is just clothing chaps, not life or death.

Grill

Amer also own Atomic and Salomon

Jarden are pretty good. K2 and Ride snowboards (and other products) are designed and developed completely independently of each other. They even use different reps in many regions. This is despite sharing centralised manufacturing and SAV.

On the flipside Atomic/Salomon and Rossi/Dynastar have been slowly integrating their products for years. Even their WC stuff is just reskinned.

♠ChumBucket♠

Once you have created a reputable "brand" then people will buy into it, simple! So, basically, you buy a branded product for £100, you will have paid approx £20 for the name & £80 for the product. You could buy the same product from a lesser known brand for £80.

"Brands" will of course patent products/technologies etc but much of the time these will just be gimmicks wrapped up to justify you buying it from them & paying their price. Technology for the sake of it? is it better? can the improvement be measured? or....... are the "brand buying" public so entrenched by this time none of the above even matter!!

How they get your money is your thing!

john1967

I love the way raffles answers his own question by proudly announcing he has a cannondale at the bottom of all his posts.
The brand is everything.

thescouselander

Its not just the brand - its labels in general in cycling. Just look at group sets - I dont think you can buy a bad one these days from any of the main manufacturers. Just looking at the Shimano stuff I really cant tell the difference in performance between the various levels. People will swear there is a difference as you go up the range citing unquantifiable factors such as "the shifting is slicker" or something like that. I honestly cant feel it myself.

That's not to say its not worth buying expensive stuff. With equipment more expensive usually = lighter and the finish is usually visibly better. I do suspect however, there is massive amounts of marketing used in order to justify exorbitant prices.

snoopsmydogg

thescouselander wrote:

Its not just the brand - its labels in general in cycling. Just look at group sets - I dont think you can buy a bad one these days from any of the main manufacturers. Just looking at the Shimano stuff I really cant tell the difference in performance between the various levels. People will swear there is a difference as you go up the range citing unquantifiable factors such as "the shifting is slicker" or something like that. I honestly cant feel it myself.

going from sora to 105 I noticed a difference in gear changes straight away. There is nothing wrong with a well set up sora groupset (i still have it on my winter bike) it changes quickly but definately feels heavier to shift and not as smooth but that could also be going from 8-10spd keeping the ratios closer together. I can't say the few grams I saved have helped either .

robbo2011

john1967 wrote:

I love the way raffles answers his own question by proudly announcing he has a cannondale at the bottom of all his posts.
The brand is everything.

Yes, yes, but there are 2 types of brands. Good brands (i.e. Raffles Approved) and bad brands (non Raffles Approved).

Cannondale is a good brand and Assos is a bad Brand. Naughty Assos.

declan1

I've just unsubscribed due to the enormous amount of emails I'm getting informing me that another person has joined WW3.

Could someone send me a PM if something exciting happens please?

rrsodl

Raffles wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

Raffles wrote:

There are pricy products out there in road cycling land that are no better than other products which cost dramatically less....................thats not opinion, its fact. Ive been driven nuts by riders "who just cant wear anything less than Assos" and its individuals like that which make me think just how crucial is branding in road cycling.

Ive observed some amazing riders who own real world bikes and ive seen mediocre cyclists who are full of it as they ride on their italian carbon steeds . Other riders watch in awe as plonker pat parades around on his italian whilst there are far superior cyclists on much cheaper equipment who would absolutely destroy him..........obviously branding is playing a part.

I would never ever hand over the asking prices that Assos, Rapha or Oakley charge as I just dont think the goods are worth it and I could get as good or better at much more realistic pricing levels . There are of course individuals who wouldnt blink handing over the money, so I guess that branding influences the decision to make those purchases.

Does branding play a substantial role or none at all in your decisions what to ride , wear, buy or be seen using ? If you were riding in a pack of Assos clad Pinarello Dogma 2 bike owners ......would it make you feel intimidated or any less of a rider because of it ?

Have you ever tried any of these 'brands' products that makes you think they're not worth it?

Of course I have, Ive tried Assos and Castelli.............preferred the Castelli and no way in gods earth would I pay what Assos were asking when Castelli were that good. Id take Castelli over Assos or Rapha in a heartbeat personally and be laughing all the way to the bank too.

My opening post is my opinion, your reply was condescending and patronising, just thought id let you know this.

I did not think the reply was condescending nor patronising at all. He probably thought you were criticising expensive products without trying them first. However, I did detect some jealousy in your post.

I don't buy expensive cycling gear and it doesn't bother me that others do. You don't need to be a Hamilton to drive a Ferrary, do you? You just need money to do it. Would I like it? Of course I would but I can't afford it so that's all there is to it.

I think we are all affected by branding - the difference is in the level we are affected to make a choice. If you have lots of money you buy a Ferrary rather than a Ford, if you don't have any money you might by Kellogg's cornflake instead of Tesco brand.

I'm not defending brands but they must do something right to become a known brand. I have only tried Assos Chamois cream and it's very good, far superior than others I have tried. Do they charge too much for their products? Probably yes, it's all about finding the balance between cost and demand to maximise profits. If the demand was not there then the prices would drop, as simple as that.

desweller

I don't know why people buy brand-name sunnies. I just wrap a bit of sellotape over my eyes and colour it in with a magic marker. I can have any lens colour I want and I get a new one every time!

thescouselander

snoopsmydogg wrote:

going from sora to 105 I noticed a difference in gear changes straight away. There is nothing wrong with a well set up sora groupset (i still have it on my winter bike) it changes quickly but definitely feels heavier to shift and not as smooth but that could also be going from 8-10spd keeping the ratios closer together. I can't say the few grams I saved have helped either .

I'm a bit OCD about getting my gears to shift smoothly. When I had Sora on my bike I fettled away until the shift was really easy - it can be made to work. Then I wanted to upgrade the group-set as I wanted 10 speeds and the shifters I could change from the drops. I was going to go for 105 or maybe even a mix of 105 and Ultegra but I concluded the under bar tape cable routing would make it harder to get free moving shifters. In the end I went for Tiagra - not as bling but I've got the shifts working superbly - I'm glad I saved the money too.

freddiegrubb

If you've got the cash & can spare it .why not? surely it depends on what value you place on £sss. if it's value isn't crucial to you go ahead. I would love to buy top notch kit but the way I ride plus the bride's washing forget it .

GavH

thescouselander wrote:

I was going to go for 105 or maybe even a mix of 105 and Ultegra but I concluded the under bar tape cable routing would make it harder to get free moving shifters. In the end I went for Tiagra - not as bling but I've got the shifts working superbly - I'm glad I saved the money too.

I've got 105 (5600) shifters on the winter bike and Tiagra front and rear mechs and concur with Scouselander; with a bit of fettling you can get it shifting nice and crisp. I'm also pretty sure the hanger on that bike is slightly bent so even more testament to the Tiagra/105 mix.

That said, I have 5700 shifters on the summer bike with Ultegra 6600 front and rear mechs and the under bar tape cable routing doesn't compromise setup at all. In fact, if anything, the Ultegra mechs make fettling even easier still. Indeed, I thought one of the advantages of 105 over Tiagra, Ultegra over 105, DA over Ultegra is, weight aside, the enhanced ability to fine tune the shift?

saprkzz

Was it wrong to spunk money on Oakley Radar Red Iridium lenses? oh which look awesome on my head below my Giro Aeon Helmet! :roll:

elderone

Some one once said to me "that something is only expensive if it doesn,t do what you want it to do".I still cant argue with that.

greasedscotsman

saprkzz wrote:

Was it wrong to spunk money on Oakley Radar Red Iridium lenses? oh which look awesome on my head below my Giro Aeon Helmet! :roll:

Pfftt... Lightweight!

http://uk.oakley.com/products/6409?prom ... six%20-phr

chilipapa

Have to be careful what I say here?

Not at all crucial IMO. A lot of the older well established brands got where they are because they were and are good. The like likes of Assos were well thought of decades ago.

I have a sort of mleh issue with Rapha which seems to be taken as jealousy on certain forums. The kit is good, but I think too pricy for something that isn't technically good ( and I mean by that, not the first choice for a race kit). I could even get Rapha at 'special' prices, but still I'd just choose to stock up on club kit. Besides it doesn't fit me So I know loads that wear it, but more for just riding, never AFAIK for racing. But the killer is the brilliant marketing, I don't go for the faux history they use to up the price, the hand made by leather skinned artisans in cobbled side streets, rather than let on it's made in high tech factories in China.

Bikes, not bothered. I think people are silly to go for the creme de la creme of bikes without ever having ridden a bike, just my opinion.
But my views must be shared, for all the riders I know wear and ride a mish mash of kit, no one gives a ++++ really.

markyone

I have assos bibs, as for me they are the most comfortable,i have tried others but nothing comes close. You get what you pay for.
I have 2 bikes 1 high end and 1 i would say medium end,i have had cheaper brands of bikes and again for me you get what you pay for,i work hard and if i can afford it i would have it,if guys in our club rib me so what. Its just because they would like it but cant have it.

xhacker

I've just cycled up a big hill naked on my rusty bike which has its name rubbed out. The groupset was cobbled together from an old corned beef tin and a pair of Snap on pliers! I had a blast...

I love a nice set of pliers me.

ddraver

I'm not reading all 6 pages, but i'd say it's fine to own all that stuff if you ve got the money to pay for it, as mid-life crises go, cycling is a cheap one. It is however wrong to think or to imply that you NEED any of it or that it makes you a better cyclist.

The clubs I ride in have a wide range of riders from those on budget bikes and kit to those with the full aero Ridley, assos wearing oldies. The Dutch being the Dutch don't comment on any of it.

What's noticeable is that most of the posh kit people sit at the back and don't contribute to much of the riding, whereas there is an old bloke on a beaten up old alu frame with sun bleached 105 and shorts that are disturbingly transparent who can quietly rip all our legs off in an instant if he so chooses.

smidsy

Yes why is it that the one with the disturbingly transparent shorts is always ahead of me?

Must work harder to avoid such troublesome sites in the future.

Pross

Raffles wrote:

robbo2011 wrote:

My goodness me, the OP does seem to have a serious inferiority complex/inverse snobbery thing going on. He is also guilty of projecting his value judgements onto others. What's the point of getting wound up by what other people spend their money on? It isn't healthy.

Raffles, my advice be to stop worrying about what everybody else is doing and just get on with enjoying your cycling.

I love my cycling Rob and thats never gonna be an issue dude.

I was asked to provide proof of big brands ripping the @rse out of it with pricing and here goes
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=18628
Oakleys at asking price £187, should come with Im a gullible mug tee shirt, Ill buy a set of bolles and pocket the £177 change thanks very much, do they look £187 worth............nope and a set of the latest Assos ones will cost well over £200 :shock: and an awful lot of riders when it comes to visuals agree that they suck.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=89759

Assos long cycling pants at..................wait for it...................£306.00 :shock: :shock: :shock:
Jeezus what are that brand like, they look awful and anybody who shells out £306 deserves all they get in my opinion, go on and somebody justify how Assos can charge £306 for pants as id love to read it.


In my opinion Assos are about bleeding the money out of riders for chinese made products that cost buttons to make and their price structure is way beyond immoral. Your mileage may vary and thats your opinion, but Im stating how I feel on this one, not looking to pick fights here but opinions make for good reading and lively discussion

Nice change of subject. You were claiming previously that Assos sell bib shorts at £239 but haven't managed to back this up (probably because you invented the number). As for the Oakleys, I would agree that they don't offer value for money and I would not buy them as a personal choice but if anyone else feels they are worth the money then that's up to them. I do own and use Oakleys, they were a present about 7 or 8 years ago and cost about £100 but the fact I am still using them shows they are good quality and I have had the frames replaced under the lifetime warranty after sitting on them when they were about a year old. As for justifying £306 for the trousers, again I wouldn't pay it and I wouldn't buy that style of cycling wear but I suspect anyone who does buy it feels the product provides what they want, isn't available elsewhere (or at least not to the same quality) and represents good value to them

Bustacapp

Don't complain. It's idiots like this that keep the economy flowing.