Jens.

iainf72

frenchfighter wrote:

ps. that is now the fourth credible pro that has firsthand experience of CSC that categorically states there was no doping that they saw.

Hamilton and Bella Jorg would beg to differ.

specialgueststar

you must have a personal issue with him or are so stubborn that it becomes detrimental to your character.

That sounds like Lance's lawyer talking to Hamilton

I suppose you believed Lance's Nike advert too.

I'm not on a witch hunt of Voigt - I'm just saying what I've seen

And in my opinion that 2008 stage doesn't add up. I watched it in good faith but at least half that lead group were pulling a fast one. Was Voigt who knows? But on balance I cant give him the benefit of the doubt of being transformed into a HC climber and putting clean riders like Chavanel and Roy and Cunego ? in the gutter , never mind a good handful of Super boys

specialgueststar

frenchfighter wrote:

Just read that article and would recommend that anyone who hasn't does read it. It was excellent, open and informative. .

Did you read it all...


As soon as we hit the mountain there were attacks everywhere, of course. And since I’m not exactly a, how shall we say, “natural-born climber,” well, I was dropped again! B

He was a big lad in 2008!

edhornby

I'm wondering if CSC was a team that had it if you wanted it but didn't force you if you didn't as opposed to the Disco 'all for one or f-off' method

what about the day after his max effort in 2008 ?

specialgueststar

edhornby wrote:

I'm wondering if CSC was a team that had it if you wanted it but didn't force you if you didn't as opposed to the Disco 'all for one or f-off' method

what about the day after his max effort in 2008 ?

'Rest' day

Day after unofficial rest day as bunch roll in 14 51 down on first group

then next day Cavendish takes it!

heavymental

Which article do you mean, Frenchie? The 'turbulent times' one?

Cumulonimbus

Pross wrote:

This report suggests that Voigt's input wasn't so superhuman http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346536/analysis-hautacam-shakes-up-the-2008-tour.html.

Basically a rider known for being able to ride hard rode hard for as long as he could knowing it didn't matter how much time he eventually lost. He eventually lost 14.05 and finished alongside Freire in 43rd position. Di Gregorio finished 29th at 9.09. The big names who got 'dropped' were probably in a position where they were keeping something in reserve to maintain a high GC position at the finish. All finished well ahead of Voigt. There was plenty dodgy on that stage but I don't think Voigt's ride was one of those.

Valverde was recovering from a fall if memory serves me right - and Cunego wasnt quite with it that tour. As i remember they all thought it would come back on the descent but it didnt.

frenchfighter

Heavymental wrote:

Which article do you mean, Frenchie? The 'turbulent times' one?

Yep.
http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyseriou ... ent-times/

iainf72

Ouch

http://sporten.tv2.dk/2012-11-05-hamilt ... i-ansigtet

disgruntledgoat

iainf72 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

ps. that is now the fourth credible pro that has firsthand experience of CSC that categorically states there was no doping that they saw.

Hamilton and Bella Jorg would beg to differ.

And Basso and Bartoli and Big Schleck.

frenchfighter

This guy wants to sell books right? Well he is going a pretty good job. Slimy fellow.

He shouldn't say stuff like absolutely Jens doped but I have no knowledge of it. STFU then unless you have somethign useful to say.

I'd like him to try and have the balls to say that to Jens in person. What a laugh that would be.

Richmond Racer

I'm not making a judgement about whether Jens did or didnt dope.

My comment is more about Hamilton.

After years of lying, he 'fessed up under pressure from the Feds. And now he is on some kind of mission that I'm not really wild about, to call out other riders - and I mean over and above who he named in his book and in his witness statement.

(bad google translation warning)
"I do not know what Jens Voigt will achieve. Believe me, that he had doped himself? Absolutely. But I have no specific knowledge that he has doped," says Tyler Hamilton


The current situation is febrile for accusations. The media are wild for it. People are in a 'all cyclists are dopers' mode, fuelled by much of what they're reading.

It's not healthy. What Hamilton is doing now is not healthy IMO. He named Riis and Tinkoff in first-hand accounts of what they did and said. Fair enough. But this is starting to step beyond that and chuck out accusations for which he admits he has no knowledge to back them up? Give me a break.

Frenchie, just read your post - agree.

iainf72

Would either of you be surprised if Jens was a doper?

Seriously.

Richmond Racer

iainf72 wrote:

Would either of you be surprised if Jens was a doper?

Seriously.

Iain, that's not the point. My post is about Hamilton chucking out accusations at the same time as admitting that he has no knowledge to back them up.

disgruntledgoat

From the article

I don’t see any traces of team-organized doping or doping networks anymore.

But according to you, you never saw them before!

I have no problem taking Voigt's word that he didn't dope, he's never put in the sort of day-after-day performances that we have seen from the teams with a massive, all encompassing programme. However, I cannot believe he was in a hotel with Basso, Hamilton, Bartoli etc etc and never had any inkling anything was going on. That just doesn't wash for me.

frenchfighter

iainf72 wrote:

Would either of you be surprised if Jens was a doper?

Seriously.

Maybe small time doping a few times for recovery but definitely I would be surprised if it was anything more that that.

I'll just repeat my comments from above after reading the article.

-

What is your basis? Tour of Germany performances? CSC? He explained the former in the article and the latter has been shown by solid people to not be systematic or a given, just a few individuals.

inkyfingers

Some amusing double standards occurring here.

As i've said before, elevating any pro cycling team above any other is folly, especially one managed by Riis.

andrewjoseph

frenchfighter wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Would either of you be surprised if Jens was a doper?

Seriously.

Maybe small time doping a few times for recovery but definitely I would be surprised if it was anything more that that.

From you posts above:

I found it hard to believe something could still think he doped after reading that - you must have a personal issue with him or are so stubborn that it becomes detrimental to your character.

Which is it Frenchie, he doped or he didn't. He did but is was for recovery so it's alright.

You always want it both ways don't you? 'so stubborn that it becomes detrimental to your character'

This sounds like you defence of bertie in the light of the obvious.

disgruntledgoat

Remember what Millar said about the way Cofidis was run? The doping wasn't team organised but they ignored it and enabled it with a "clean hands" approach.

That's how I imagine CSC worked.

Jez mon

I think Riis probably gently encouraged certain riders to go visit certain places, but probably took a somewhat "clean hands" approach as proposed above.

Also, maybe remember that certain subtleties in Language may be lost when a rider is reported in a language other than his first, which is then put through an internet translation service.

frenchfighter

dave milne

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/voigt-spy ... i-ansigtet

Richmond Racer

According to his Twitter feed Jens has just done a Sky interview, dealing with Hamilton's ongoing accusations

And Jens is getting annoyed on his twitter feed with a couple of people accusing him (dont know why he bothers, I'd just ignore them myself)

And now Linus Gerdemann's piling in:
'Hamilton is a doper and he can not imagine that other riders are able to play fair. He has never been with Jens Voigt in a Team!'


Have to say that irrespective of Jens did-he/didnt-he, I suspect that Gerdemann is right about Hamilton not imagining that some riders didnt dope. That does come cross in his book as a form of self-justification ('I played the game and I played it well' etc) - and he seems to be continuing with this theme in book launch interviews.

Not sure if he can get his head around riders riding clean even today.

iainf72

I find it all a bit confusing. Jens was never on the tiny list of people you'd have considered "clean" 7 or 8 years ago, the peloton are terrible gossips and know who was doing what, so the chances are he'd heard something. Jorg J also got quite pissed off with Jens position which has to make you think "hmmmm"

But they could just be bitter and jealous.

Le Commentateur

Just a quick timeout from the depressing doping discussion to insert this website courtesy of Jen Voigt Army

http://internationale.teamjva.com/







OK, back to the speculation.

Richmond Racer

Le Commentateur wrote:

Just a quick timeout from the depressing doping discussion to insert this website courtesy of Jen Voigt Army

http://internationale.teamjva.com/







OK, back to the speculation.

frenchfighter

Rock solid racer

frenchfighter

Linus Gerdemann ‏@LGerdemann
Hamilton is a doper and he can not imagine that other riders are able to play fair. He has never been with Jens Voigt in a Team!
Linus Gerdemann ‏@LGerdemann
Because this guy want to sale his book he is willing to destroy the reputation of a fair sportsman.

-5 Nov 2012

Richmond Racer

Jens is...Jens...no one else like him.

I mean, attacking from the gun yday...it might have been a chipper of chippers but its bloody entertaining. I reckon he's gonna be even more Jens than ever this season

TMR

Bjarne said Jens has ADHD in 'OverComing', so that may explain some of it. He's good entertainment though.