Jens.

MrTapir

Richmond Racer wrote:

MrTapir wrote:

Hmm Jens. While everyone seems to have written him off because he was on CSC, he was racing with Bobby Julich and later Brad McGee was part of the team, both of whom have stated there was no organised doping on CSC and both of whom people are generally willing to accept as clean (Julich after 98 obviously). Also Jens raced with Credit Agricole, presumably with Chris Boardman (or did they miss each other?), known generally as a clean team if im not mistaken? When people say 'i never saw any doping', it could easily be true if they mean they never saw someone actually administering or taking dope. Its different to saying 'i never saw anyone riding under the influence of dope'. Because they obviously did.

I think the 'odius cnt' remark was to do with the way he acted about something, heavymental, i may be mistaken.

I'm sure that Jens and Chris B raced together - they're defo mates.

Thanks RR. So its possible Jens tells the truth, and also missed the East German programme. He doesn't have boobs or is missing a spine or anything. Proof if proof be need be....

specialgueststar

Duo Normand 1999 (Record?)

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One of the more depressing sights I remember from the enhanced era - and it wasnt that long ago was Voigt and Cancellara 'softening' up the climbers in the alps by going on an early attack. The rode uphill on a long climb past the French climber di Gregorio as though he was trying out his first bike

Turned off a bit at that point and cant remember which tour/climb it was

disgruntledgoat

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

One of the more depressing sights I remember from the enhanced era - and it wasnt that long ago was Voigt and Cancellara 'softening' up the climbers in the alps by going on an early attack. The rode uphill on a long climb past the French climber di Gregorio as though he was trying out his first bike

Turned off a bit at that point and cant remember which tour/climb it was

2008 up to Hautacam. To be fair to the pair of them Di Gregorio has never exactly been Charley Gaul and had gone solo over the Tourmalet already.

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disgruntledgoat wrote:

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

One of the more depressing sights I remember from the enhanced era - and it wasnt that long ago was Voigt and Cancellara 'softening' up the climbers in the alps by going on an early attack. The rode uphill on a long climb past the French climber di Gregorio as though he was trying out his first bike

Turned off a bit at that point and cant remember which tour/climb it was

2008 up to Hautacam. To be fair to the pair of them Di Gregorio has never exactly been Charley Gaul and had gone solo over the Tourmalet already.

To some extent but he's a hard working climber and I think would normally be able to sit with Cancellara and Voigt on a HC

2007
17th, Overall, Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st, Mountains classification

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Jens Voigt of CSC sacrificed himself entirely on the first HC climb. Voigt drove so hard that many of the top riders cracked. Apparently Voigt decided to sacrifice himself so hic CSC teammate Carlos Sastre would have Cancellara, and the Schleck brothers stayed near the head of the main group, but Voigt did all the work; the others were kept in reserve to assist Sastre on the second climb.
Alejandro Valverde, Oscar Pereiro and Damiano Cunego were dropped 2.5 km before the summit. Valverde was exhausted and slipped back. To add to his misery, his chain broke, dropping him even further. Damianao Cunego, another pre-race favorite, also dropped to the back. The pair struggled on together to finish, but both lost nearly six minutes in the stage, quite possibly ending their chances for an overall win.
The yellow jersey peloton of 14 riders crossed the peak of the Col du Tourmalet six minutes bebehind DiGrigorio. Thus group contained Voigt, Sastre, Menchov, Cobo, Evans, Efimkin, Kohl, Schleck, Schleck, Ricco, Piepoli, Kirchen, Vande Velde and Duenas Nevado.
The final climb up the Hautacam briefly reunited the pack; then CSC rider Frank Schleck, and Saunier Duval riders J.J. Cobo and Leonardo Piepoli attacked up the hill. Shortly they were joined by Gerolsteiner’s Bernard Kohl and AG2R’s Vladimir Efimkin.

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mrushton

Some 'names' in there aren't there :roll:

disgruntledgoat

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Jens Voigt of CSC sacrificed himself entirely on the first HC climb. Voigt drove so hard that many of the top riders cracked. Apparently Voigt decided to sacrifice himself so hic CSC teammate Carlos Sastre would have Cancellara, and the Schleck brothers stayed near the head of the main group, but Voigt did all the work; the others were kept in reserve to assist Sastre on the second climb.
Alejandro Valverde, Oscar Pereiro and Damiano Cunego were dropped 2.5 km before the summit. Valverde was exhausted and slipped back. To add to his misery, his chain broke, dropping him even further. Damianao Cunego, another pre-race favorite, also dropped to the back. The pair struggled on together to finish, but both lost nearly six minutes in the stage, quite possibly ending their chances for an overall win.
The yellow jersey peloton of 14 riders crossed the peak of the Col du Tourmalet six minutes bebehind DiGrigorio. Thus group contained Voigt, Sastre, Menchov, Cobo, Evans, Efimkin, Kohl, Schleck, Schleck, Ricco, Piepoli, Kirchen, Vande Velde and Duenas Nevado.
The final climb up the Hautacam briefly reunited the pack; then CSC rider Frank Schleck, and Saunier Duval riders J.J. Cobo and Leonardo Piepoli attacked up the hill. Shortly they were joined by Gerolsteiner’s Bernard Kohl and AG2R’s Vladimir Efimkin.

So he has 6 minutes over the top of the Tourmalet, which has an 18 km descent, with Voigt and Canc at the head of it, that would be a frantic pace. He's also been out on his own since the early KMs of the stage.

There's also about 15km of valley road, which I recall saw CSC cut Di Gregorio's lead to about 2 minutes by the base of the climb where Jens went bye bye. That's not amazing, that's 2 very good team mates doing their job over a knackered youngster on his first tour. If you want to point fingers in that years Tour, you could do worse than looking at the Alpe D'Huez stage where Stuart O Grady led the Peloton over the Galibier.

specialgueststar

so six minutes deficit at the Tourmalet (di Gregorio only attacked with 15km to climb on the Tourmalet having been shielded in a group o=f 7 ..it's coming back to me ) with Voigt doing work up that climb.... then the descent ..fair enough Voigt has an advantage as hes three times heavier than di Gregorio... down the other side ....along the short valley flat out .... then a immense effort past di Gregorio on the Hautacam (first Tour but kom from Dauphine year before) ...

Are you sure this is adding up...??

disgruntledgoat

But Voigt didn't make the catch, as I recall. He swung off afer about 500m of Hautacam. And the 80 odd KM off the front of the race on his own aren't free either.

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di Gregorio said

It was a beautiful day for me. I had planned to escape and I managed to spend a good part of the day in the lead. I was also able to climb well on the Col du Tourmalet and I went over the top with a lead of two minutes. This might have been sufficient if circumstances had been a little different in the race but with way that CSC swapped off (??) behind me – to ensure that they put time into the Valverde group – I found myself in a situation that was rather dire despite the advantage I’d been able to build.
“I did not lose so much time in the valley and am proud of the way I raced. I loved this day, especially when I think that last year I only got to see the mountain stages of the Tour on television because I’d broken a rib in the first week.
“The experience of climbing at the front of the Tour de France as we went over the Tourmalet is something that provided me with a good revenge for the situation I found myself in last year.”

disgruntledgoat

I'll watch the DVD when I get home tonight, but my recollection is that he had 4 and a half minutes over the top of the Tourmalet and less than 2 by the time they hit the climb.

specialgueststar

Between us we're patching it together ! I found the footage ...and my recall was slightly out (and you were right) in that Voigt doesnt drive past di Gregorio but swings off just before the catch and F Schleck goes.

Watching it again I reach the same conclusion though. The profile, the riders, the pace, the tactics. ...that group makes a promising climber look like a plaything...and he was done over by a 'Super' group

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL9kTDIZa-k

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I'll watch the DVD when I get home tonight, but my recollection is that he had 4 and a half minutes over the top of the Tourmalet and less than 2 by the time they hit the climb.

Pross

This report suggests that Voigt's input wasn't so superhuman http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346536/analysis-hautacam-shakes-up-the-2008-tour.html.

Basically a rider known for being able to ride hard rode hard for as long as he could knowing it didn't matter how much time he eventually lost. He eventually lost 14.05 and finished alongside Freire in 43rd position. Di Gregorio finished 29th at 9.09. The big names who got 'dropped' were probably in a position where they were keeping something in reserve to maintain a high GC position at the finish. All finished well ahead of Voigt. There was plenty dodgy on that stage but I don't think Voigt's ride was one of those.

specialgueststar

Pross wrote:

This report suggests that Voigt's input wasn't so superhuman http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346536/analysis-hautacam-shakes-up-the-2008-tour.html.

Basically a rider known for being able to ride hard .

hard on a HC climb? Tourmalet? Its not so much who he dropped but even Ricco looks uncomfortable ( I know he won th eprevious stage ) and many other 'names'

In the Ardennes it's one thing but...

plus he looked at his heaviest in that Tour

I know its inconclusive. I watched my first tour in 1987 and seen a lot...but that stage stuck out as unfair play.

It was when French cycling was still getting a drubbing for being crap - despite them making so much effort to clean it up and Chavanel and Roy were also in the front group?

Irony is di Gregorio goes to Astana and gets banned

frenchfighter

I'm in two minds about Jens and don't think he was doping for a good long while but may have been way back when.

He is a total character as we all know and rides with pure passion for the sport.

He has insane power and even at this age he still has it. Just see his performance in USA Pro Cycling Challenge stage 4 (ridiculous).

petemadoc

How anyone can make a judgement on this based on a single performance is ridiculous. This is a great example of why doping is so horrible, it makes you question everything.

Jens is a legend

The end

iainf72

Tour of Germany, anyone?

petemadoc

iainf72 wrote:

Tour of Germany, anyone?

Not exactly the hardest race on the calender but with added incentive for Jens that it's a home crowd.

One of my sons is a cyclist himself. Does anybody really think I would dope and then let my sport be ruined and burn all the bridges for my son?

The future of the sport is in our hands. And if we want to avoid losing other great sponsors such as Rabobank then there are no excuses. It’s up to us, the riders and the teams, to prove that we are worth the support of our fans, families, partners, and sponsors.

He'd have to be a real scumbag to lie through his teeth and write stuff like this.

Anonymous

As you said in your 1st post about doping being so horrible making you question everything, but think about all the things Lance said?

He 'couldn't possibly' be that much of a scumbag, surely surviving cancer humbled him....but he was, and still is.

I would never presume to say the same about Jens, but as you rightly said, it sadly does make you second guess everything, especially what comes out their mouths.

No_Ta_Doctor

PeteMadoc wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Tour of Germany, anyone?

Not exactly the hardest race on the calender but with added incentive for Jens that it's a home crowd.

One of my sons is a cyclist himself. Does anybody really think I would dope and then let my sport be ruined and burn all the bridges for my son?

The future of the sport is in our hands. And if we want to avoid losing other great sponsors such as Rabobank then there are no excuses. It’s up to us, the riders and the teams, to prove that we are worth the support of our fans, families, partners, and sponsors.

He'd have to be a real scumbag to lie through his teeth and write stuff like this.

Yes, he would.

specialgueststar

PeteMadoc wrote:

How anyone can make a judgement on this based on a single performance is ridiculous. This is a great example of why doping is so horrible, it makes you question everything.

Jens is a legend

The end

Richmond Racer

oh god, just the sight of that slaphead Riis... :evil:

heavymental

There's a big difference between what Jens, and also Wiggo in his Guardian article, have said, and what folk such as Lance have said. Jens and Wiggo are laying it on the line. Making it clear that their whole ethos is anti-doping and that to go against that represents a huge betrayal of their own values and of those closest to them. Lance never gave anything more than a few soundbites. Jens, by his own admission has started rambling in his denial of anything to do with doping and I don't think he's done it to cover anything up. He's doing it like someone trying to show how completely against it they are without actually turning violent on his inquisitor! I mean really, what more can he do!? Start riding like a chump?

We also know that Lance is something of a sociopath. I don't know if a lot of people on this thread have really thought about what it is to live a huge lie. Under questioning, to lie so completely is probably very difficult for someone who is not a master criminal, but simply someone who has made a career in sport because they like riding a bicycle. Look at what happened as soon as Millar was questioned by someone with some authority. Look at what happened to all Lance's former buddies when the law came calling. I don't think Jens or any other doper would happily ramble on about it if they were guilty. They'd give a few sentences to show they're towing the line and then get away from that prying journo. If Wiggo and Jens turn out to be lying then they are certainly scumbags. But to suspect someone like those guys after what they have said seems a bit paranoid to me. If you lose faith in people like Wiggo or Jens after their statements then really, why follow the sport at all? I feel the same when Lance's lawyers question the integrity of the witness statements. You'd have to be virtually schizophrenic to create such parallel universes containing such mundane details that would survive cross examination.

Also, it is possible for people to do great things on a bike. I mean, not every performance that leave us amazed are due to drugs. Otherwise, again, why follow the sport if everytime someone flies off he front of a group you sigh and put a black mark next to his name?

I think Jens is one of those people who probably avoided doping due to his personality acting like a shield. Like the guy we all know who would never get offered drugs at a party or invited outside for a doobie if there's one on the go. Someone like Jens is one of those people who you instinctively know is not going to be best pleased if you offer him something illegal. One of those people who makes you feel a little bit guilty for sneaking out the back door at the party with a can of beer in your hand and an intention to take something stronger. Some people you know are going to be on side when there's something good on the go. Some people you know are not going to be.

I don't follow the pros very closely but Jens always comes across well. And even if he hasn't, I wouldn't blame him for the odd snap just like I don't blame Cav for getting pssed off at the odd journo/question.

Here's a nice example of his character. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jens-voigt-on-a-tandem

oh and the Jens soundboard from those crazy guys at Jens Voigt's Army.

http://teamjva.com/jens-voigt-soundboard/

petemadoc

and who can forget the bottle incident

http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyseriou ... from-jens/

There's some brilliant quotes in this blog

So, there I was, riding slowly (I prefer not to say at what speed)

So i thought, “No this is not going to happen!”

I'm not that naive to believe that he never ever took anything whilst he rode through the darkest period in cycling history.... but hard core organised doper. no way!

frenchfighter

PeteMadoc wrote:

and who can forget the bottle incident

http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyseriou ... from-jens/

There's some brilliant quotes in this blog

So, there I was, riding slowly (I prefer not to say at what speed)

So i thought, “No this is not going to happen!”

I'm not that naive to believe that he never ever took anything whilst he rode through the darkest period in cycling history.... but hard core organised doper. no way!

First time I've heard of that. Thanks for posting.

frenchfighter

Just read that article and would recommend that anyone who hasn't does read it. It was excellent, open and informative. It also made a lot of sense and sounded very credible. I found it hard to believe something could still think he doped after reading that - you must have a personal issue with him or are so stubborn that it becomes detrimental to your character.

Go Jens.



ps. that is now the fourth credible pro that has firsthand experience of CSC that categorically states there was no doping that they saw.