Paul Kimmage.....
Comments
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nic_77 wrote:Think you are still missing my point. If you want a doctor to treat someone who is ill, hire a doctor.
I'm afraid you re not getting mine - they tried a "normal" doctor, but he did nt have the experience to treat Cycling specific complaints (like Edwald Bossan Hagen's Saddle sores during the Vuelta). So they needed to hire one with cycling specific experience. Is that clear now?
Did he ALSO tell them about how doping programmes were run? Well, possibly, but to be honest, I doubt it given the rest of the backroom staff...Plus at the end of the day, I don't think it's rocket science really.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
OK maybe I'll buy this. But I'm still not convinced a 'cycling' doctor can do any more for saddle sores than any other medic...ddraver wrote:nic_77 wrote:Think you are still missing my point. If you want a doctor to treat someone who is ill, hire a doctor.
I'm afraid you re not getting mine - they tried a "normal" doctor, but he did nt have the experience to treat Cycling specific complaints (like Edwald Bossan Hagen's Saddle sores during the Vuelta). So they needed to hire one with cycling specific experience. Is that clear now?
Again, ignore Leinders for a minute. If Sky didn't receive information about doping (albeit without the intention of doing it) from somewhere (be it a doctor, Barry, Yates, the Internet) that would be very naive and would represent poor preparation... The one thing Sky (and their BC cohorts) have built a reputation for is their thoroughness - remember these are the guys that took their own beds on tour!ddraver wrote:Did he ALSO tell them about how doping programmes were run? Well, possibly, but to be honest, I doubt it given the rest1 of the backroom staff...Plus at the end of the day, I don't think it's rocket science really.
Finally to re-iterate, I'm a big Team Sky fan and I think they are clean. I would just be embarassed for them if in 2010 they knew less about doping in professional cycling than I did... that's why I don't buy their 'naivety' explanation (whilst also acknowledging they've got no choice but to use it).
Bringing this back on topic... I'm pretty sure Kimmage realises something is up, but is adding 1+1 and getting 3 (in a quite annoying and self-important way).0 -
I know your a big fan, I have no problem with that, but I don't think you re on the money here. I don't think that you need to take on a doping specialist (who was nt a known doping specialist at the time at all, and still has nt been proven to be...yet) to learn how doping processes work. Just e-mail JV or David Millar for example...
Sky did nt think they needed a cycling specific doctor either, it was another one of the things they got wrong in the earlier years....We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Yep fair enough, I'm only speculatingddraver wrote:I know your a big fan, I have no problem with that, but I don't think you re on the money here. I don't think that you need to take on a doping specialist (who was nt a known doping specialist at the time at all, and still has nt been proven to be...yet) to learn how doping processes work. Just e-mail JV or David Millar for example...
Forgetting the doctor, I just think they must have known more about doping than they have been forced into claiming. And perversely if they didn't, they should have.
I guess that's the difference between Garmin clean and Sky clean.
Kimmage doesn't appear to be able to ask the right questions, instead he prefers to throw random sh*t.0 -
ddraver wrote:nic_77 wrote:Think you are still missing my point. If you want a doctor to treat someone who is ill, hire a doctor.
I'm afraid you re not getting mine - they tried a "normal" doctor, but he did nt have the experience to treat Cycling specific complaints (like Edwald Bossan Hagen's Saddle sores during the Vuelta). So they needed to hire one with cycling specific experience.
Naturally, they took Rasmussen's personal doctor.0 -
ddraver wrote:I know your a big fan, I have no problem with that, but I don't think you re on the money here. I don't think that you need to take on a doping specialist (who was nt a known doping specialist at the time at all, and still has nt been proven to be...yet) to learn how doping processes work. Just e-mail JV or David Millar for example...
From what little I know of doping, it's surprisingly sophisticated and to run a doping programme now would require someone with specialist medical expertise. JV or David Millar might know that EPO is used as a masking agent - to rebalance reticulocyte ratios following autologous transfusion, but would either of them know how to do that in practice?
Saddle sores, on the other hand, can be treated as well by your District Nurse as by any 'cycling doctor'.I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.0 -
But only by a district nurse attune to the aggregation of marginal gains.0
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Meh, your average district nurse probably has a lot less experience in treating them and will definitely be a lot less experienced when it comes to weighing up the pros and cons of riding through the pain or taking time off to let them heal.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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iainf72 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:What's Kimmage's record on riders who aren't Tour winners?? Or even riders who don't speak English?
You mean like Vino? Or Basso?
Yeah. Or Ulrich, or Rabobank or CSC or anyone.
Comes across as pretty selective to me, but I don't read all his stuff - just some.0 -
rob churchill wrote:Saddle sores, on the other hand, can be treated as well by your District Nurse as by any 'cycling doctor'.
Yes genius, my mother is one, she says rub some sudocreme on them and stop riding the bike till they go away. Great help for EBH half way through the Vuelta that is nt it!
Tit! :roll:We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:iainf72 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:What's Kimmage's record on riders who aren't Tour winners?? Or even riders who don't speak English?
You mean like Vino? Or Basso?
Yeah. Or Ulrich, or Rabobank or CSC or anyone.
Comes across as pretty selective to me, but I don't read all his stuff - just some.
Sure, but in his defence, I can't imagine the Sunday Times or other papers giving him many column inches on "unheard of cyclist or cycling team with funny foreign sounding name does something suspicious". However, if you can come up with some **** smear the good name of a well liked celebrity/team, then certain elements of the press will generally buy into it.
OTOH, he could write his articles with just a teeny bit more balance, but where's the fun in writing good balanced articles.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
ddraver wrote:rob churchill wrote:Saddle sores, on the other hand, can be treated as well by your District Nurse as by any 'cycling doctor'.
Yes genius, my mother is one, she says rub some sudocreme on them and stop riding the bike till they go away. Great help for EBH half way through the Vuelta that is nt it!
As was I from time to time, and I still maintain a professional interest in woundcare and a subscription to this. There is no magic pill a cycling doctor can give you that will heal sores while you're still riding.ddraver wrote:Tit! :roll:
And with that, you lose.I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.0 -
There are things you can do to help whilst the rider is still riding 150km-200km a day that a doctor from swimming won't know about
Maybe you should read what you subscribe to?
Reality is nt a competition by the way...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
There were no doctors in the British Cycling set up?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Whilst I hope that Kimmage is wrong in this case, he's perfectly within his rights to raise questions about Sky's performances. Let's be blunt - you'd have to be blind to not see something disturbing in Sky's rapid raise to GT domination and their employment of a haematologist. It may well be that he's able to give them legitimate advice on how to maximise the benefit of altitude training, leading to a marginal gain that pushed a good rider like Wiggins from a Top10 to Top 3 rider. Don't know enough about Froome to know what he's capable of. Certainly his medical history can explain some shitty performances followed by some exceptional ones.
Bt be honest, there are enough flags to warrant someone raising questions.
And so what if he's wrong? Wiggins and Co. might be frustrated that people don't trust them, but they know the deal, they know their sports history. They should take personal satisfaction in the quality of their performance and ignore the doubters. In the meantime they get paid, the great unwashed worship them, a few people point fingers. Brad's a big boy, he'll tell us all to pheck off, I'm sure.
But I really really hope they manage to perform next year. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll find it very hard to trust 2012. A perform means a podium in a GT, not a win.0 -
Rubbish (employment of the haematologist aside). Wiggins improved in GT's over a few years just as most do (4th, disaster, Crash). He then rode for a team that could afford to employ superb riders to work exclusively for him, including the current World Champion. He then worked phenomenally hard, training exclusively for that 1 race.
He then won a tour that was tailor made for him in the face of minimal opposition. Frankly, given all the above, anything other than a W would have been a total failure (a culture that is very well worth cultivating in a sports team!)
The rest I agree with, I suspect Sky give very little thought to the Twitter Taliban...rightly so!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Hold on, you can't have it both ways... either there are things you can do which 'even' you are aware of or you need some super specialist saddle-sore witch doctor?ddraver wrote:There are things you can do to help whilst the rider is still riding 150km-200km a day that a doctor from swimming won't know about0 -
powerbookboy wrote:Whilst I hope that Kimmage is wrong in this case, he's perfectly within his rights to raise questions about Sky's performances. Let's be blunt - you'd have to be blind to not see something disturbing in Sky's rapid raise to GT domination and their employment of a haematologist. It may well be that he's able to give them legitimate advice on how to maximise the benefit of altitude training, leading to a marginal gain that pushed a good rider like Wiggins from a Top10 to Top 3 rider. Don't know enough about Froome to know what he's capable of. Certainly his medical history can explain some sh!tty performances followed by some exceptional ones.
Bt be honest, there are enough flags to warrant someone raising questions.
And so what if he's wrong? Wiggins and Co. might be frustrated that people don't trust them, but they know the deal, they know their sports history. They should take personal satisfaction in the quality of their performance and ignore the doubters. In the meantime they get paid, the great unwashed worship them, a few people point fingers. Brad's a big boy, he'll tell us all to pheck off, I'm sure.
But I really really hope they manage to perform next year. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll find it very hard to trust 2012. A perform means a podium in a GT, not a win.
Fair enough, I guess. I've banged on about this before but I still maintain that they're going to struggle not to feel the effect of losing Sean Yates from the team car in the big races, maybe difference between podium and top step on occasion. Hope I'm wrong.0 -
But I really really hope they manage to perform next year. Otherwise I'm afraid I'll find it very hard to trust 2012. A perform means a podium in a GT, not a win.
Fair enough, I guess. I've banged on about this before but I still maintain that they're going to struggle not to feel the effect of losing Sean Yates from the team car in the big races, maybe difference between podium and top step on occasion. Hope I'm wrong.
I think Wiggins will probably miss him less than Froome might. Of more concern is the fact that they've lost Mick Rogers to Bertie, Barry to the glue factory and Julich. That's a lot of wise heads and watts to replace.
If Wiggins has any sense he'll ride the Giro to win, fallback on the Tour if he crashes or misfires. Giro suits him, Tour doesn't, although he should still be there or thereabouts. To be honest I think he'll do well to get a top 10 in the Tour this year, and that won't set my alarm bells ringing. He got a bit lucky with early race crashes in 2012, removed a lot of the pressure.
Unless Sky can absolutely boss it, 2013 is going to be chaos - JRod, Contador, Valverde, Nibali and Froome are going to tear it up at every opportunity, not really something we've ever seen from Wiggins, although I wouldn't put it past him to adapt.
I predict Team Spain + Nibali attacking with 1km from a summit, plunging of the other side and dropping Wiggins and Froome for dead. At least that's what I'd do. They've got to break Sky up and work together to stop them TTing back to them on the flats/tempo climbs. Bertie proved how effective that can be this year, Nibali's scary to watch downhill, no one's got the watt advantage of years gone by to do silly rides.
Brain will probably win 2013 Tour. Which now I think of it makes losing Yates perhaps a bigger loss than I initially conceded!
TDF Prediction:
Bertie
JRod
Froome
Wiggins -4th to 6th if he only rides it, 15th if he Giro's0 -
Bold prediction on the Purito front, considering the Kathusha situation...if Kathusha get back to Pro Tour, yeah, agree he's going to be very competitive0
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Richmond Racer wrote:Bold prediction on the Purito front, considering the Kathusha situation...if Kathusha get back to Pro Tour, yeah, agree he's going to be very competitive
I'm assuming he's not going to be a Katusha rider come July.
P.S. Wouldn't worry me especially if he was missing, I'm not a believer.0 -
ddraver wrote:Rubbish (employment of the haematologist aside). Wiggins improved in GT's over a few years just as most do (4th, disaster, Crash). He then rode for a team that could afford to employ superb riders to work exclusively for him, including the current World Champion. He then worked phenomenally hard, training exclusively for that 1 race.
He then won a tour that was tailor made for him in the face of minimal opposition. Frankly, given all the above, anything other than a W would have been a total failure (a culture that is very well worth cultivating in a sports team!)
The rest I agree with, I suspect Sky give very little thought to the Twitter Taliban...rightly so!
"Anything other than a W" devalues Sky's stunning achievement rather a lot... A podium is remarkable.
I wouldn't say he improved over a few years. He came from no-where to stun everyone with a 4th, then performed perhaps closer to what we might have anticipated, then crashed when I fully expected him to Podium (purely on the basis of his physique, he was shockingly lean), then won with a weakened field on a course suited to him.
He's had 3 outstanding rides and one anomaly. Nothing prior to 2009 suggested he could be a GT contender - we'd never seen him climb. But it's not unheard of for a TT specialist to learn to climb, especially when you consider his considerable weight loss. But the old fashioned way can make making a great big muscley lump charge up mountains by giving him a Red-Blood-Jetpack of some flavour, as well as a skinny sod.
All of which would make me, as a journalist looking to sell column inches, ask a lot of questions. Rightly.
I'd prefer if Kimmage asked questions about certain Belgium classics racers, or climbers that have learned to time trial rather well recently. But I'm glad someone is putting the pressure on. If they don't, as cycling fans we'll all be looking like tw*ts again in a few years time.
So yay Kimmage - soured faced miserable out sod he seems to be. Keep up the pressure, throw mud, move the spotlight off the journalists doing the hard graft of gathering evidence.
P.S. I happen to believe that Wiggins rides clean. I think he's got a lot of financial and technological power behind him that gives him an "unfair" advantage over some of his rivals, but I don't think he's doping in the pharmaceutical "it's not banned so it's legal" crap. Let's hope so. Be lovely to think that one of the very very few clean winners was a British sweary man.
P.P.S. I know he was concentrating on the track prior to 2009. Doesn't change the fact he had no pedigree, so his 2009 results where a shock. A pleasant one, but a shock non the less.0 -
The crux is in your use of the words "never seen him climb" - Literally we had never seen it because he'd never had to do it in a road race...it does nt meant that he COULD NT climb.
This is not the same as a rider that could never stay with the bunch on climbs, even when he should do, suddenly being able to climb.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
powerbookboy wrote:P.P.S. I know he was concentrating on the track prior to 2009. Doesn't change the fact he had no pedigree, so his 2009 results where a shock. A pleasant one, but a shock non the less.
A multiple world and Olympic pursuit champion has "no pedigree"? :shock:0 -
ddraver wrote:The crux is in your use of the words "never seen him climb" - Literally we had never seen it because he'd never had to do it in a road race...it does nt meant that he COULD NT climb.
This is not the same as a rider that could never stay with the bunch on climbs, even when he should do, suddenly being able to climb.
Apart from a stage of the tour de l'avenir that is.0
