Drugs in other sports and the media.
Comments
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Pinno wrote:If a pro in the middle of a 3 week stage race comes off his bike and suffers serious road rash, he's bottoming out every day, he's loosing weight (like most Pro's do during a 3 week tour), his immune system is taking a hammering, he cannot consume enough calories to replace what he is burning, his body fat is at a minimum and the risk of infection is very high.
Pro goes to hospital, the pain from the road rash is intolerable and the risk of infection is equally high - would you say he doesn't need anti-biotics and wouldn't benefit from pain relief? He may not sleep well without some pain relief. Sleep is criticial to recovery.
Museeuw had a post op knee infection after that crash and he nearly lost his leg - anti-biotics saved his life, his leg and his career.
Never been a fan of the Hamilton's repertoir... if the injury is serious, the rider goes home... seeing people racing with broken bones bombed with pain killers is a bit pointless
But in many cases the rider would still need a TUE for medication even if they have left the race.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Pinno wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Pinno wrote:If a pro...leg and his career.
Never been a fan of the Hamilton's repertoir... if the injury is serious, the rider goes home... seeing people racing with broken bones bombed with pain killers is a bit pointless
But that's the blood and guts of Pro cycling. No one said Pro cycling is a life lengthening, healthy option.
Bernard Hinault crashes in the middle of a sprint, blood pouring down his face, struggles over the line and eventually wins the TdF - it's an iconic image
Contador crashes on week 1 (of any stage race) and battles on, covered in elastic plaster netting...
Pro Cycling sometimes makes other sports look like tiddly winks.
Contador raced with 3 broken shoulders at one point.
3?! Now I know my maths and geography is not brilliant but...seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Yes, because Bert ALWAYS loses the use of a limb when crashing out of one race, followed by wails that he doesn't think he will ever ride again. Only to bounce back and win the next race.0
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Well, Bert is a bit like Marmite.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
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Pinno wrote:Joelsim wrote:Contador raced with 3 broken shoulders at one point.
3?! Now I know my maths and geography is not brilliant but...
I think it was 5, wasn't it? 5 broken shoulders and 4 sprained ankles, held together with magic Spain-coloured kinesiology tape@shraap | My Men 2016: G, Yogi, Cav, Boonen, Degenkolb, Martin, J-Rod, Kudus, Chaves0 -
chrisday wrote:
No wonder he was taking drugs.
I shouldn't say that as I quite like Bertie but couldn't resist.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Tis but a scratch!0
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RichN95 wrote:The question is though - Does cycling actually have a TUE problem?
There are about 1200 cyclists in the UCI's Registered Testing Pool. They can only obtain a TUE from the UCI. In 2015 the UCI issued only 13.
So that's 13 TUEs issued for 1200 cyclists. Even when you add in the cyclists who will have long term TUEs for uncureable conditions, that's a very small number. It doesn't look like a problem to me.
Point of order, the UCI automatically recognise TUEs given by a range of national organisations, there was a list in the link that the magic number 13 came from. It's not clear if that's 13 directly issued by the UCI or 13 in cycling. I would guess it's probably the former, and the tip of the iceberg.Above The Cows wrote:So let's compile a list of cyclists and other sportspeople with known medical conditions. It can be known as the 'Untermensch With Uberstrength List'.
1. Beryl Burton - ventricular tachycardia.
2. Jack Bobridge - rheumatoid arthritis.
3. Greg Lemond - ADHD.
4. Steve Redgrave - diabetes and crohns disease.
Redgrave actually has ulcerative colitis, not crohns. The two are fairly closely related, but not the same thing. Crohns is confined to the small intestine, colitis to the large intestine. Both, however, are systemic diseases, with a range of symptoms that have no apparent connection with bowel disorder. Darren Fletcher (ManU, West Brom, Scotland footballer) and Lewis Moody (Leicester, Bath, England egg chaser) both have it as well. There's a list of colitis sufferers on Wikipedia that includes NBA basketballers, Nuffle players and hockeyists (ice, I think).
Treatment for colitis is usually a combination of immunosuppressants and corticosteroids, depending on severity and patient reaction.
I know far more about this than I would like. *Dons yellow star of genetic weakness*Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
[Puts pedant coat on]
Severe colitis can result in removal of long sections of gut.
My friend and football coach described his cousin's (Darren Fletcher) prognosis when he was first diagnosed. It is remarkable that he is back playing football at a high level. Similarly, I met a guy in hospital with Crohn's disease who's organs shut down completely on more than 1 occasion.
So there are huge degrees of acuteness but I get your point TaDoc.
[Takes pedant coat off]seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:RichN95 wrote:The question is though - Does cycling actually have a TUE problem?
There are about 1200 cyclists in the UCI's Registered Testing Pool. They can only obtain a TUE from the UCI. In 2015 the UCI issued only 13.
So that's 13 TUEs issued for 1200 cyclists. Even when you add in the cyclists who will have long term TUEs for uncureable conditions, that's a very small number. It doesn't look like a problem to me.
Point of order, the UCI automatically recognise TUEs given by a range of national organisations, there was a list in the link that the magic number 13 came from. It's not clear if that's 13 directly issued by the UCI or 13 in cycling. I would guess it's probably the former, and the tip of the iceberg.
You should know by now that I check things for myself
Here's the rule. "An International-Level Rider must apply to the UCI". That's the 1200 strong UCI testing pool. What they will recognise is pre-existing TUEs from National Feds for those entering the pool (e.g. Neo-Pros) as long as they meet certain standards.
One of the British swimmers who has had her TUEs hacked has it. She has year long TUEs for the same thing Froome took.No tA Doctor wrote:
Redgrave actually has ulcerative colitis, not crohns. The two are fairly closely related, but not the same thing. Crohns is confined to the small intestine, colitis to the large intestine. Both, however, are systemic diseases, with a range of symptoms that have no apparent connection with bowel disorder. Darren Fletcher (ManU, West Brom, Scotland footballer) and Lewis Moody (Leicester, Bath, England egg chaser) both have it as well. There's a list of colitis sufferers on Wikipedia that includes NBA basketballers, Nuffle players and hockeyists (ice, I think).
Treatment for colitis is usually a combination of immunosuppressants and corticosteroids, depending on severity and patient reaction.
I know far more about this than I would like. *Dons yellow star of genetic weakness*Twitter: @RichN950 -
A decent rider I know was offered a semi-pro / sponsored ride for a season. He had a digestive condition that I think may have still been undiagnosed at the time but I believe he now has conformation that it is colitis. He notified the team that he was on prescribed medication and approached BC for a TUE which was rightly granted (obviously some on here would suggest he should get by without it or give up on a decent cycling career that stretched back a fair old time). He informed the team and they promptly dropped him like a hot brick. I can't help thinking there was a potential discrimination case there.0
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RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:RichN95 wrote:The question is though - Does cycling actually have a TUE problem?
There are about 1200 cyclists in the UCI's Registered Testing Pool. They can only obtain a TUE from the UCI. In 2015 the UCI issued only 13.
So that's 13 TUEs issued for 1200 cyclists. Even when you add in the cyclists who will have long term TUEs for uncureable conditions, that's a very small number. It doesn't look like a problem to me.
Point of order, the UCI automatically recognise TUEs given by a range of national organisations, there was a list in the link that the magic number 13 came from. It's not clear if that's 13 directly issued by the UCI or 13 in cycling. I would guess it's probably the former, and the tip of the iceberg.
You should know by now that I check things for myself
Here's the rule. "An International-Level Rider must apply to the UCI". That's the 1200 strong UCI testing pool. What they will recognise is pre-existing TUEs from National Feds for those entering the pool (e.g. Neo-Pros) as long as they meet certain standards.
One of the British swimmers who has had her TUEs hacked has it. She has year long TUEs for the same thing Froome took.No tA Doctor wrote:
Redgrave actually has ulcerative colitis, not crohns. The two are fairly closely related, but not the same thing. Crohns is confined to the small intestine, colitis to the large intestine. Both, however, are systemic diseases, with a range of symptoms that have no apparent connection with bowel disorder. Darren Fletcher (ManU, West Brom, Scotland footballer) and Lewis Moody (Leicester, Bath, England egg chaser) both have it as well. There's a list of colitis sufferers on Wikipedia that includes NBA basketballers, Nuffle players and hockeyists (ice, I think).
Treatment for colitis is usually a combination of immunosuppressants and corticosteroids, depending on severity and patient reaction.
I know far more about this than I would like. *Dons yellow star of genetic weakness*
That's exactly how I read it yesterday when I looked Rich.0 -
Pinno wrote:[Puts pedant coat on]
Severe colitis can result in removal of long sections of gut.
My friend and football coach described his cousin's (Darren Fletcher) prognosis when he was first diagnosed. It is remarkable that he is back playing football at a high level. Similarly, I met a guy in hospital with Crohn's disease who's organs shut down completely on more than 1 occasion.
So there are huge degrees of acuteness but I get your point TaDoc.
[Takes pedant coat off]
Yes, it can result in the removal of the entire large intestine. Which isn't generally seen as a cause for celebration.
Crohn's tends to be even more complicated, with far more common and serious symptoms outside the bowel.
But even fairly mild colitis is physically and mentally draining, and most treatments have numerous potential side effects ranging from bloating to increased risk of acute liver failure.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
My mother had colitis and related issues back in the 70's, severe enough for the possibility of life with a colostomy bag to be discussed. While still well enough Dad took her on a round the world trip just in case it became logistically too tricky later.No tA Doctor wrote:Pinno wrote:[Puts pedant coat on]
Severe colitis can result in removal of long sections of gut.
My friend and football coach described his cousin's (Darren Fletcher) prognosis when he was first diagnosed. It is remarkable that he is back playing football at a high level. Similarly, I met a guy in hospital with Crohn's disease who's organs shut down completely on more than 1 occasion.
So there are huge degrees of acuteness but I get your point TaDoc.
[Takes pedant coat off]
Yes, it can result in the removal of the entire large intestine. Which isn't generally seen as a cause for celebration.
Crohn's tends to be even more complicated, with far more common and serious symptoms outside the bowel.
But even fairly mild colitis is physically and mentally draining, and most treatments have numerous potential side effects ranging from bloating to increased risk of acute liver failure.
She used to see a somewhat flaky chiropractor at the time for other reasons and mentioned one day the colitis and symptoms.
"Oh I can fix that" he said. Prescribed a very particular diet which was largely grape juice and a few other things I don't recall for a couple of weeks. Told she'd lose a lot of weight (she did, although was already tall and slim so that wasn't a good thing). Nearly caused a divorce because my father thought she was going to die starving.
But it worked. As in, completely and utterly worked. Never had a recurrence of any significance, and even now in her 80s has only occasional mild problems for which Iberogast works just fine.Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Pross wrote:A decent rider I know was offered a semi-pro / sponsored ride for a season. He had a digestive condition that I think may have still been undiagnosed at the time but I believe he now has conformation that it is colitis. He notified the team that he was on prescribed medication and approached BC for a TUE which was rightly granted (obviously some on here would suggest he should get by without it or give up on a decent cycling career that stretched back a fair old time). He informed the team and they promptly dropped him like a hot brick. I can't help thinking there was a potential discrimination case there.
Is it possible to legitimately get a TUE for something you are already taking?0 -
As a Type II diabetic I take Metformin. It levels out my blood sugars so I don't go hypoglycemic. In 2013 when I stated taking it my weight and fitness stabilised and I went from the back of the slow Sunday ride to the next ride up in a matter of months.
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
I think is smoke without fire. For years the Soviet Bloc doped their athletes. Within Russia there is an element who continue to follow this line. Putin is pissed off so he lets his cyber terrorists loose to smear everybody else.
Sour Grapes.0 -
Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problemleft the forum March 20230 -
Dr Ugo's internet-based medical consultation practice, open for business this morning0
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problem
OK, so is "good" diabetes allowed?0 -
You and I have both made a Brass Eye reference within a few minutes of each other on different threads (I hadn't seen yours). It looks like a documentary these days.BigMat wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problem
OK, so is "good" diabetes allowed?Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
You and I have both made a Brass Eye reference within a few minutes of each other on different threads (I hadn't seen yours). It looks like a documentary these days.BigMat wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problem
OK, so is "good" diabetes allowed?
Clearly I need to be more subtle!0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problem
Maybe I would have become a rower like Sir Steve Redgrave?
He was a professional athlete who was discovered to have had the condition during his career. I think his 4th and 5th medals were won after his diagnosis.
By the way Diabetes is not as simple as it being split in to Type 1 or Type 2. Even within the definition there is a sliding scale of severity. I'm one of the lucky ones who can manage my condition and rarely goes hypoglycemic. Some are not so lucky.0 -
Der Kaiser wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Der Kaiser wrote:
My point is that I suffer from a condition and I need medication to enable me to function day to day.
If I was a pro rider then I would need a TUE to be able to ride. In the same way the riders in Novo Nordisk Cycling do.
.
If you were a PRO rider, you wouldn't have type II diabetes... maybe type I, but not type II... which in essence is my point: athletes should be healthier than the average population, rather than less healthy... if they are less healthy, then sport has a serious problem
Maybe I would have become a rower like Sir Steve Redgrave?
He was a professional athlete who was discovered to have had the condition during his career. I think his 4th and 5th medals were won after his diagnosis.
By the way Diabetes is not as simple as it being split in to Type 1 or Type 2. Even within the definition there is a sliding scale of severity. I'm one of the lucky ones who can manage my condition and rarely goes hypoglycemic. Some are not so lucky.
I has always assumed Redgrave was type 1, you learn something every day...0 -
I'm short sighted, do i need a TUE for glasses of I competed at a high level? It seems to me that short sightedness is a defect that probably isn't allowed in Ugo's Nietzchean sporting world. Sorry Ugo but I disagree with all your comments about TUEs.
IMHO sport is these top athlete's careers and source of income. In other walks of life you develop a medical condition or due to lifestyle you notice an underlying condition and you get treatment for it. The best you can do is sometimes just to manage it not cure it. With sports at a very high level you have a reporting and approval system for treatments. It's a control system. The doping cheats are doing things outside of this control system. Imho if you're inside this system and competing within the rules of the control system it's ok. We should root out those operating outside of the control system not those within it. Simple as that!0 -
Vino'sGhost wrote:Pross wrote:A decent rider I know was offered a semi-pro / sponsored ride for a season. He had a digestive condition that I think may have still been undiagnosed at the time but I believe he now has conformation that it is colitis. He notified the team that he was on prescribed medication and approached BC for a TUE which was rightly granted (obviously some on here would suggest he should get by without it or give up on a decent cycling career that stretched back a fair old time). He informed the team and they promptly dropped him like a hot brick. I can't help thinking there was a potential discrimination case there.
Is it possible to legitimately get a TUE for something you are already taking?
He approached BC for the TUE as soon as he was prescribed the medication.0 -
Pross wrote:Vino'sGhost wrote:Pross wrote:A decent rider I know was offered a semi-pro / sponsored ride for a season. He had a digestive condition that I think may have still been undiagnosed at the time but I believe he now has conformation that it is colitis. He notified the team that he was on prescribed medication and approached BC for a TUE which was rightly granted (obviously some on here would suggest he should get by without it or give up on a decent cycling career that stretched back a fair old time). He informed the team and they promptly dropped him like a hot brick. I can't help thinking there was a potential discrimination case there.
Is it possible to legitimately get a TUE for something you are already taking?
He approached BC for the TUE as soon as he was prescribed the medication.
Yes it is.
If you're not in the UCI Testing Pool then you can apply to BC, if you move into the TP then you have to apply to the UCI.0 -
Pross wrote:Vino'sGhost wrote:Pross wrote:A decent rider I know was offered a semi-pro / sponsored ride for a season. He had a digestive condition that I think may have still been undiagnosed at the time but I believe he now has conformation that it is colitis. He notified the team that he was on prescribed medication and approached BC for a TUE which was rightly granted (obviously some on here would suggest he should get by without it or give up on a decent cycling career that stretched back a fair old time). He informed the team and they promptly dropped him like a hot brick. I can't help thinking there was a potential discrimination case there.
Is it possible to legitimately get a TUE for something you are already taking?
He approached BC for the TUE as soon as he was prescribed the medication.
That seems clear. Real shame that he got knocked back by the team, Pross0 -
Tangled Metal wrote:I'm short sighted, do i need a TUE for glasses of I competed at a high level? It seems to me that short sightedness is a defect that probably isn't allowed in Ugo's Nietzchean sporting world. Sorry Ugo but I disagree with all your comments about TUEs.
IMHO sport is these top athlete's careers and source of income. In other walks of life you develop a medical condition or due to lifestyle you notice an underlying condition and you get treatment for it. The best you can do is sometimes just to manage it not cure it. With sports at a very high level you have a reporting and approval system for treatments. It's a control system. The doping cheats are doing things outside of this control system. Imho if you're inside this system and competing within the rules of the control system it's ok. We should root out those operating outside of the control system not those within it. Simple as that!
That's fine. Luckily the new academic year is closing in, so I'll have a lot less time to spend on the forum...
I like giving advice on workshop issues, but I find these debates very tiresome... 20 pages on we are all saying exactly the same things... it just never goes anywhere... :roll: left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Tangled Metal wrote:I'm...that!
That's fine. Luckily the new academic year is closing in, so I'll have a lot less time to spend on the forum... I like giving advice on workshop issues, but I find these debates very tiresome... 20 pages on we are all saying exactly the same things... it just never goes anywhere... :roll:
But we're masters of burrelling on one's elbow*.
It's a Scottish expression, might not be exportable.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Tangled Metal wrote:I'm...that!
That's fine. Luckily the new academic year is closing in, so I'll have a lot less time to spend on the forum... I like giving advice on workshop issues, but I find these debates very tiresome... 20 pages on we are all saying exactly the same things... it just never goes anywhere... :roll:
But we're masters of burrelling on one's elbow*.
It's a Scottish expression, might not be exportable.
And there isn't a necessity to contribute, to be fair.
You could do something worthwhile instead whether that's getting your tool in your hand or reading a book. Or even something interesting.0
