Drugs in other sports and the media.

fat daddy

[quote="ugo.santaluciaif it's really bad I call in sick at work, generally one day is plenty, that might happen once or maybe twice every year at worst...[/quote]


there you have it .... 2 days sick a year, that you take off of work.

what happens to a pro cyclist if they take a day off in the TdF or Flanders ? ..... does Geraint Thomas cover for them ? ... OR do they take something for it, carry on riding and get a TUE

ugo.santalucia

fat daddy wrote:

what happens to a pro cyclist if they take a day off in the TdF or Flanders ? ..... does Geraint Thomas cover for them ? ... OR do they take something for it, carry on riding and get a TUE

In that case, they have wasted a few months of training... if they are sick, they need to rest

I have wasted seven years of my life writing research proposals that didn't get funded... some times might have been demerit, other times bad luck... I was paid to do it, same as Sagan is paid to ride is bike... shoot happens

Richmond Racer 2

In either 2013 or 2014 (can't rememer which), Sky were subject to a lot of bitching and whining in some quarters for turning up to some Spring races short-handed, and thereby somehow 'disrespecting' the races in question

Anecdotally I did hear that they had changed their internal policy re treating riders to get them back on their bikes quickly, to one more, dunno, gentle?

Worth noting that some riders including big signings have had a lot more time off the bike, recovering. Just look at this year - Landa, Koenig, Kwiato, Intxhausti

So next time teams turn up to several races with less than their full complement of riders, maybe some critics need to engage their brains before gobs

ugo.santalucia

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

In either 2013 or 2014 (can't rememer which), Sky were subject to a lot of bitching and whining in some quarters for turning up to some Spring races short-handed, and thereby somehow 'disrespecting' the races in question

I am not saying that the world of PRO cycling is not full of idiots at all levels... the fact that Virenque and Cipollini are still national heroes speaks for itself.

I advocate drug free sport, including prescription drugs... if a prescription is necessary, then the athlete is sick and cannot compete, period. Weh nhe's better, he'll get off medications and back to training/racing

I might be alone in this, but I can't care less

Richmond Racer 2

Honey Badger, he don't care

Anonymous

You're probably talking anecdotally about antibiotics. Not the same as ibuprofen or paracetamol. If you have a painful back injury (sciatica etc) I'd certainly not diagnose a fry up.

I think you just make arguments for the sake of it without really thinking it through

ugo.santalucia

coriordan wrote:

You're probably talking anecdotally about antibiotics. Not the same as ibuprofen or paracetamol. If you have a painful back injury (sciatica etc) I'd certainly not diagnose a fry up.

I think you just make arguments for the sake of it without really thinking it through

I have thought about it extensively and I do believe there is an abuse of presacription (and not) drugs in SPORT. That has been testified by experts on several occasions, including tribunals

I quoted the trial to Juventus FC about ten years ago... I seem to recall they stocked 300 boxes of Voltarol

cruff

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^tbf I think there is an element of that. I think that comes with the territory. Not just sport, though - it's the same approach across all walks of life. Drugs are a shortcut to health again (in theory). Feeling like you're coming down with a bad cold? Most people take codeine/ibuprofen, decongestants whatever. They don't just lie in bed for days on end. Well, I certainly don't.

I haven't taken any pill in years... the only exception, I was prescribed a course of antibiotics after a small surgery, which I did follow a couple of years ago... they even gave me a bag of pain killers, which I didn't take as I don't mind pain too much... if I get a cold I don't take anything, if it's really bad I call in sick at work, generally one day is plenty, that might happen once or maybe twice every year at worst... I haven't caught a flu in about ten years, if i did, I'd probably just stay in bed and read a book... I can't say that the absence of medications is impacting my life to be honest. I did try the odd paracetamol and ibuprofene in the past for hangovers, but they didn't seem to be miracle cures, bacon and eggs seem to be a better pain killer so I didn't bother anymore

I think most drugs are largely useless

I'm pretty much the same. Drives my girlfriend up the wall - she's a midwife, and has all sorts of recommendations for drugs, specific painkillers for specific pain etc. I think the majority of painkillers are placebos (or, at the very least, have a much higher rate of success with people who think they're going to work before they take them). As a cynic, and someone who has pretty much never found an over the counter painkiller that's been remotely effective, I'm doomed to failure with them before I even start, so just don't bother. Ditto decongestants - they don't do anything at all for me, and I've tried them loads of times as I have a deviated septum and colds are a massive, massive ballache for me. They've never made a blind bit of difference.

I'm not daft, though. When I've had antibiotics for infections I've made sure I take them properly, and complete the course

However - on the same point - and directly in reference to something someone else posted earlier in the thread, I have an allergy to a particular kind of pollen - which means some years I literally cannot see for streaming eyes, and sneeze about 500 times a day (that isn't an exaggeration). I used to get an injection every year called 'Kenalog' - containing Triamcinolene - which made a massive difference - so having injections to treat hay fever is definitely not suspicious

webboo

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^tbf I think there is an element of that. I think that comes with the territory. Not just sport, though - it's the same approach across all walks of life. Drugs are a shortcut to health again (in theory). Feeling like you're coming down with a bad cold? Most people take codeine/ibuprofen, decongestants whatever. They don't just lie in bed for days on end. Well, I certainly don't.

I haven't taken any pill in years... the only exception, I was prescribed a course of antibiotics after a small surgery, which I did follow a couple of years ago... they even gave me a bag of pain killers, which I didn't take as I don't mind pain too much... if I get a cold I don't take anything, if it's really bad I call in sick at work, generally one day is plenty, that might happen once or maybe twice every year at worst... I haven't caught a flu in about ten years, if i did, I'd probably just stay in bed and read a book... I can't say that the absence of medications is impacting my life to be honest. I did try the odd paracetamol and ibuprofene in the past for hangovers, but they didn't seem to be miracle cures, bacon and eggs seem to be a better pain killer so I didn't bother anymore

I think most drugs are largely useless

Most drugs are useless is just a slight generalisation in my experience. Over the last 30 years the number of people I have been working with who felt they no longer needed to take medication and then ended up in hospital sometimes detained under the Mental Health Act would be in the dozens.

ugo.santalucia

Webboo wrote:

Most drugs are useless is just a slight generalisation in my experience. Over the last 30 years the number of people I have been working with who felt they no longer needed to take medication and then ended up in hospital sometimes detained under the Mental Health Act would be in the dozens.

I will rephrase: most drugs used in sport are useless and should not be used. There is a humongous use of pain killers in all forms and shapes... in some sports Voltarol is almost used as a moisturiser!

dish_dash

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Honey Badger, he don't care

Wait... what's Navardauskas got to do with this?

RichN95.

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

dinyull

It would be interesting to see how many TUE's are applied for/granted in other sports such as swimming and athletics. Although I think TUE's can (and have) been abused I think the low number in cycling shows things have certainly improved massively.

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

Egg poacher turned goalkeeper

joelsim

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

Egg poacher turned goalkeeper

Always knew he was a bad egg.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

It's most likely doing nothing... if it does something, it is to your detriment, as masking the pain makes it more likely you will injure it. Pain has a biological function

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

It's most likely doing nothing... if it does something, it is to your detriment, as masking the pain makes it more likely you will injure it. Pain has a biological function

Well thank you for your diagnosis, person I've never met.

And using ibuprofen doesn't make it more likely I'll injure myself. Playing hockey does that. And I'll do that with or without the gel.

(I'm reality most damage is done in my sleep)

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

And using ibuprofen doesn't make it more likely I'll injure myself. Playing hockey does that. And I'll do that with or without the gel.

Again, pain is there to prevent you doing movements that might result in an injury... it serves a purpose... if you numb it, you lose that function.

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

This thread has opened my eyes. For last couple of years I've been rubbing ibuprofen gel on my shoulder to play hockey. As of next week I'll be rubbing a fried egg on it.

It's most likely doing nothing... if it does something, it is to your detriment, as masking the pain makes it more likely you will injure it. Pain has a biological function

Well thank you for your diagnosis, person I've never met.

And using ibuprofen doesn't make it more likely I'll injure myself. Playing hockey does that. And I'll do that with or without the gel.

(I'm reality most damage is done in my sleep)

Hahaha, this exchange has given me the larfs over a coffee just now

Ugo should single-handedly man the NHS phone service they've pushing on everyone

webboo

I once got a bollocking from my GP for not using the prescribed pain killers when I'd broken my ribs as I thought I'd man up. Apparently it's highly likely you will end up with a chest infection by avoiding the pain relief as you will not be breathing correctly because of the pain.

ugo.santalucia

Webboo wrote:

I once got a bollocking from my GP for not using the prescribed pain killers when I'd broken my ribs as I thought I'd man up. Apparently it's highly likely you will end up with a chest infection by avoiding the pain relief as you will not be breathing correctly because of the pain.

There is an argument that if you take pain killers you will rest better and heal quicker... it might be true in a number of cases... other times they are unnecessary and (once again) they don't work either.

norvernrob

Webboo wrote:

I once got a bollocking from my GP for not using the prescribed pain killers when I'd broken my ribs as I thought I'd man up. Apparently it's highly likely you will end up with a chest infection by avoiding the pain relief as you will not be breathing correctly because of the pain.

My GP said a similar thing about my back pain recently. I told her I wasn't taking them very often, and she said if you don't take any you end up moving awkwardly and can cause further damage.

LanterneRouge010

NorvernRob wrote:

Webboo wrote:

I once got a bollocking from my GP for not using the prescribed pain killers when I'd broken my ribs as I thought I'd man up. Apparently it's highly likely you will end up with a chest infection by avoiding the pain relief as you will not be breathing correctly because of the pain.

My GP said a similar thing about my back pain recently. I told her I wasn't taking them very often, and she said if you don't take any you end up moving awkwardly and can cause further damage.

I fractured my spine last year and probably didn't take enough painkillers due to paranoia over developing an endone addiction. Now that I am completely recovered I have to work through the negative postural behaviour that I learned by trying to adjust my body weirdly to limit pain.

bompington

No wonder doctors talk a lot about "health beliefs". Usually with a roll of the eyes.

pinno

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Webboo wrote:

I ...pain.

There is an argument that if you take pain killers you will rest better and heal quicker... it might be true in a number of cases... other times they are unnecessary and (once again) they don't work either.

I am on permanent Penicillin and pain killers. They allow me to lead a 'normal' life.

I will let you off Ugo as you later qualified your statement by saying 'drugs in cycling'.

Re.: Pain killers. There are deeper effect of certain pain killers - Diclofenac, for example (popularly known as Voltarol) has anti-inflammatory effects, thereby accelerating recovery or reducing the damage cause by the side effects of injury/surgery.
Certain pain killers for example reduce the pain by alleviating swelling. To say pain killers are placebo; Use is not simply a case of switching off the pain and telling the brain that it's not as bad as it actually is. That is a rather simplistic way of viewing 'pain relief' - drugs have come a long way since full frontal lobotomy's using a hammer and chisel, whilst starving the patient of Oxygen who's just drunk a bottle of mother's ruin.
Pain relief comes in many different forms, for many different applications. The body can react to shock and physical trauma in a way that is detrimental to a healing process. It's very complex and multi faceted - and this post is long enough.

If a pro in the middle of a 3 week stage race comes off his bike and suffers serious road rash, he's bottoming out every day, he's loosing weight (like most Pro's do during a 3 week tour), his immune system is taking a hammering, he cannot consume enough calories to replace what he is burning, his body fat is at a minimum and the risk of infection is very high.
Pro goes to hospital, the pain from the road rash is intolerable and the risk of infection is equally high - would you say he doesn't need anti-biotics and wouldn't benefit from pain relief? He may not sleep well without some pain relief. Sleep is criticial to recovery.
Museeuw had a post op knee infection after that crash and he nearly lost his leg - anti-biotics saved his life, his leg and his career.

If you never have to take any medication, don't boast about being fortunate.

ugo.santalucia

Pinno wrote:

If a pro in the middle of a 3 week stage race comes off his bike and suffers serious road rash, he's bottoming out every day, he's loosing weight (like most Pro's do during a 3 week tour), his immune system is taking a hammering, he cannot consume enough calories to replace what he is burning, his body fat is at a minimum and the risk of infection is very high.
Pro goes to hospital, the pain from the road rash is intolerable and the risk of infection is equally high - would you say he doesn't need anti-biotics and wouldn't benefit from pain relief? He may not sleep well without some pain relief. Sleep is criticial to recovery.
Museeuw had a post op knee infection after that crash and he nearly lost his leg - anti-biotics saved his life, his leg and his career.

Never been a fan of the Hamilton's repertoir... if the injury is serious, the rider goes home... seeing people racing with broken bones bombed with pain killers is a bit pointless

Richmond Racer 2

Pinno wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Webboo wrote:

I ...pain.

There is an argument that if you take pain killers you will rest better and heal quicker... it might be true in a number of cases... other times they are unnecessary and (once again) they don't work either.

I am on permanent Penicillin and pain killers. They allow me to lead a 'normal' life.

I will let you off Ugo as you later qualified your statement by saying 'drugs in cycling'.

Re.: Pain killers. There are deeper effect of certain pain killers - Diclofenac, for example (popularly known as Voltarol) has anti-inflammatory effects, thereby accelerating recovery or reducing the damage cause by the side effects of injury/surgery.
Certain pain killers for example reduce the pain by alleviating swelling. To say pain killers are placebo; Use is not simply a case of switching off the pain and telling the brain that it's not as bad as it actually is. That is a rather simplistic way of viewing 'pain relief' - drugs have come a long way since full frontal lobotomy's using a hammer and chisel, whilst starving the patient of Oxygen who's just drunk a bottle of mother's ruin.
Pain relief comes in many different forms, for many different applications. The body can react to shock and physical trauma in a way that is detrimental to a healing process. It's very complex and multi faceted - and this post is long enough.

If a pro in the middle of a 3 week stage race comes off his bike and suffers serious road rash, he's bottoming out every day, he's loosing weight (like most Pro's do during a 3 week tour), his immune system is taking a hammering, he cannot consume enough calories to replace what he is burning, his body fat is at a minimum and the risk of infection is very high.
Pro goes to hospital, the pain from the road rash is intolerable and the risk of infection is equally high - would you say he doesn't need anti-biotics and wouldn't benefit from pain relief? He may not sleep well without some pain relief. Sleep is criticial to recovery.
Museeuw had a post op knee infection after that crash and he nearly lost his leg - anti-biotics saved his life, his leg and his career.

If you never have to take any medication, don't boast about being fortunate.

Sorry to hear this, chap. Life ain't binary, despite the way some people act

pinno

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Pinno wrote:

If a pro...leg and his career.

Never been a fan of the Hamilton's repertoir... if the injury is serious, the rider goes home... seeing people racing with broken bones bombed with pain killers is a bit pointless

But that's the blood and guts of Pro cycling. No one said Pro cycling is a life lengthening, healthy option.

Bernard Hinault crashes in the middle of a sprint, blood pouring down his face, struggles over the line and eventually wins the TdF - it's an iconic image
Contador crashes on week 1 (of any stage race) and battles on, covered in elastic plaster netting...

Pro Cycling sometimes makes other sports look like tiddly winks.

pinno

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Webboo wrote:

I ...pain.

There...fortunate.

Sorry to hear this, chap. Life ain't binary, despite the way some people act

No worries RR2. It's not a sob story -it's just a counter argument to the 'my body is a temple and I never take pills' as well as Ugo being argumentative.
I do plenty of pedalling despite everything and i'm more than content chasing my front wheel.

joelsim

Pinno wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Pinno wrote:

If a pro...leg and his career.

Never been a fan of the Hamilton's repertoir... if the injury is serious, the rider goes home... seeing people racing with broken bones bombed with pain killers is a bit pointless

But that's the blood and guts of Pro cycling. No one said Pro cycling is a life lengthening, healthy option.

Bernard Hinault crashes in the middle of a sprint, blood pouring down his face, struggles over the line and eventually wins the TdF - it's an iconic image
Contador crashes on week 1 (of any stage race) and battles on, covered in elastic plaster netting...

Pro Cycling sometimes makes other sports look like tiddly winks.

Contador raced with 3 broken shoulders at one point.