Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,596
    Someone in Russian was able to access to data on TUEs. Really wouldn't surprise me if someone else was able to access dates for out of competition tests.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-37352326
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Man, Russia is f*cked up. It's scary they don't try and hide where the hack is from, but this is coming from the govt that shot down a passenger plane and poisoned a spy in London putting innocent lives in danger.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Dinyull wrote:
    Man, Russia is f*cked up. It's scary they don't try and hide where the hack is from, but this is coming from the govt that shot down a passenger plane and poisoned a spy in London putting innocent lives in danger.
    What's scariest of all is the blurred lines between government and gangsters - I would say there's a pretty low chance that this doesn't have some sort of Kremlin involvement.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Yeah, that was the point I (badly) tried to make. They're so blase about trying to hide anything - even when there's a smoking gun, they just smile and say "hey, it wasn't us".
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    anyone got any links to the data they hacked ? Would be interesting to see what TUEs everyone is on.

    Would like to think the TUE system isnt being abuse but I doubt it
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,490
    Apparently a US blogger did a piece that showed the TUE dates linked with known injuries to the athletes involved so it appears there's no sign of the system being abused (unless we start going down the line of suggesting athletes are faking injuries in order to use banned products but we can leave that for the other place). I don't really want to see the TUE information, it's private for a reason. However, no doubt it will be widely published in the media therefore fulfilling the aim of the hackers to create a 'no smoke without fire' response.
  • professeur
    professeur Posts: 232
    sherer wrote:
    anyone got any links to the data they hacked ? Would be interesting to see what TUEs everyone is on.

    Would like to think the TUE system isnt being abuse but I doubt it

    Looks like they want to control the flow of information so there hasn't been a mass data dump.

    From the Guardian...
    Documents published on the Fancy Bear website appeared to show that Serena Williams had taken the restricted drugs prednisone, prednisolone, methylprednisone, hydromorphone and oxycodone between 2010 and 2015, while her sister Venus had taken prednisone, prednisolone, triamcinolone and formoterol. Biles, meanwhile, was given methylphenidate for attention-deficit disorder. In all cases, however, Wada confirmed that the athletes had committed no offence because they had been granted therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) by the relevant international sports federations and national anti-doping organisations.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    I wonder how their medical intake compares to the average American. Doctors hand out pills like they're Skittles over there.

    For example, Simone Biles is taking ADHD medication. 10% of American children are doing just the same.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    RichN95 wrote:
    I wonder how their medical intake compares to the average American. Doctors hand out pills like they're Skittles over there.

    For example, Simone Biles is taking ADHD medication. 10% of American children are doing just the same.

    Ritalin? Or have they moved on from that? I remember reading about their propensity to prescribe that in a Kurt Cobain biog...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    I'm now regretting not pursuing a new research agenda looking at anti-doping systems as a security practice.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,193
    Makes me quite uncomfortable seeing athletes on Twitter saying they are "proud" not to have any TUEs - maybe they should consider that they are fortunate not to have any medical conditions that require medication that is subject to a TUE?
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    But (without wanting to go all clinic), athlete's coming out against TUE's will know and understand better than the man on the street how some are abusing the system.

    It would be interesting if independent Dr's had to be used to apply for a TUE - as I understand it it's mostly team/federation Dr's handing them out and gives scope for abuse imo.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    Dinyull wrote:
    But (without wanting to go all clinic), athlete's coming out against TUE's will know and understand better than the man on the street how some are abusing the system.
    Will they? They haven't used them themselves and are likely to view the situation through stronger biases than we do.

    Separately from your point, some thoughts on TUEs.

    1. Athletes should be allowed exactly the same healthcare as everyone else.

    2. Telling an athlete they must rest to take a drug is counterproductive. They will compete without the drug and risk further damage. Athletes compete ill and injured all the time anyway. Basso wanted to finish the Tour when he was diagnosed with cancer.

    3. Some of the conditions TUE meds are used to treat are ongoing and can't be cured - just managed

    4. Most of the fuss about TUEs is from doping obsessives desperate for scandal. It's methadone in the absence of a real fix.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    You'd have to assume that if your sat on the bus, in the changing room etc with fellow athlete's each and everyday you'd have a good idea if some are taking the mick. Especially with your livelihood on the line.

    We all know the craic with sport, some are always going to push the boundaries. Some TUE's are important to allow athlete's deal with very real problems, then their are the likes of Sharapova and half of Russia with their "heart problem's".
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,490
    I wonder if people would kick up a fuss about the TUE use by athletes at the Paralympics? There would probably be a (reasonable) assumption that the medication was part of their daily life but as soon as 'able bodied' athletes are found to regularly require medication people get all hot under the collar. Serena Williams was one of the athletes named and yet her fairly major health problems are well documented and kept her out of the sport for a year.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    Dinyull wrote:
    You'd have to assume that if your sat on the bus, in the changing room etc with fellow athlete's each and everyday you'd have a good idea if some are taking the mick. More so than the average man on the street.
    But they also have a strong investment in the situation which leads to unreliable assessments. (For example, a neutral spectator will always be a better assessor of a football referee's performance than a professional playing in the game, despite less experience)
    Dinyull wrote:
    We all know the craic with sport, some are always going to push the boundaries. Some TUE's are important to allow athlete's deal with very real problems, then their are the likes of Sharapova and half of Russia with their "heart problem's".
    The drug the were taking wasn't banned (until the beginning of 2016). It wasn't a TUE issue.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    So you honestly don't think anyone has ever abused the TUE system?
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    You'd have to assume that if your sat on the bus, in the changing room etc with fellow athlete's each and everyday you'd have a good idea if some are taking the mick. More so than the average man on the street.
    But they also have a strong investment in the situation which leads to unreliable assessments. (For example, a neutral spectator will always be a better assessor of a football referee's performance than a professional playing in the game, despite less experience)

    No. But that same player would have a decent idea that the striker he plays with who's been shat for the past 12 months has improved leaps and bounds since getting that TUE.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    Dinyull wrote:
    So you honestly don't think anyone has ever abused the TUE system?
    When have I said that? I just don't think it is quite the problem that some make it out to be.There's a lot of pitchfork waving by people who haven't really thought things through. For example...
    Dinyull wrote:
    No. But that same player would have a decent idea that the striker he plays with who's been shat for the past 12 months has improved leaps and bounds since getting that TUE.
    That doesn't actually happen. The drugs people get TUEs for aren't big performance enhancers. No-one is getting a TUE for EPO or anabolic steroids.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,596
    I think the TUEs a couple of athletes are taking is of almost no interest. The interesting part is that WADA has online security like most, and it is entirely possible that organisations have access to significant things like the timing of out of competition tests. For a hacker that makes a good business model, for a corrupt state it helps with the programme.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    So you honestly don't think anyone has ever abused the TUE system?
    When have I said that? I just don't think it is quite the problem that some make it out to be.There's a lot of pitchfork waving by people who haven't really thought things through. For example...
    Dinyull wrote:
    No. But that same player would have a decent idea that the striker he plays with who's been shat for the past 12 months has improved leaps and bounds since getting that TUE.
    That doesn't actually happen. The drugs people get TUEs for aren't big performance enhancers. No-one is getting a TUE for EPO or anabolic steroids.

    Haha, fair enough.
  • professeur
    professeur Posts: 232
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    So you honestly don't think anyone has ever abused the TUE system?
    When have I said that? I just don't think it is quite the problem that some make it out to be.There's a lot of pitchfork waving by people who haven't really thought things through. For example...
    Dinyull wrote:
    No. But that same player would have a decent idea that the striker he plays with who's been shat for the past 12 months has improved leaps and bounds since getting that TUE.
    That doesn't actually happen. The drugs people get TUEs for aren't big performance enhancers. No-one is getting a TUE for EPO or anabolic steroids.

    Marginal gains, my friend! :D
  • darkhairedlord
    darkhairedlord Posts: 7,180
    professeur wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    So you honestly don't think anyone has ever abused the TUE system?
    When have I said that? I just don't think it is quite the problem that some make it out to be.There's a lot of pitchfork waving by people who haven't really thought things through. For example...
    Dinyull wrote:
    No. But that same player would have a decent idea that the striker he plays with who's been shat for the past 12 months has improved leaps and bounds since getting that TUE.
    That doesn't actually happen. The drugs people get TUEs for aren't big performance enhancers. No-one is getting a TUE for EPO or anabolic steroids.

    Marginal gains, my friend! :D

    If there is no gain why would it be banned/need a TUE?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,150
    darkhairedlord wrote:
    If there is no gain why would it be banned/need a TUE?
    Generally TUEs allow the user to take a certain amount for a certain time. Not a free for all that would be possible with no ban. Some of these drugs have to be taken in large amounts to be of much performance benefit
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    What athletes and the internet believe is performance enhancing and what actually works are not the same.
    TUEs usually set limits too so those who need it can get the medication they need, but can't take health-endangering amounts.
  • alan_sherman
    alan_sherman Posts: 1,157
    Take Salbutamol. Useful for an asthma suffer to overcome the condition. Useful for a healthy athlete? No. No performance gain. It was however used to mask using something else.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,002
    alan sherman wrote:
    Take Salbutamol. Useful for an asthma suffer to overcome the condition. Useful for a healthy athlete? No. No performance gain. It was however used to mask using something else.

    I don't think it masks Alan.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 21,812
    Time for a nice table showing some numbers.
    Looks to me as if the UCI think the system has been abused in the past.

    http://www.uci.ch/clean-sport/therapeut ... xemptions/

    Number 8 is where it's at.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • jawooga
    jawooga Posts: 530
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I think the TUEs a couple of athletes are taking is of almost no interest. The interesting part is that WADA has online security like most, and it is entirely possible that organisations have access to significant things like the timing of out of competition tests. For a hacker that makes a good business model, for a corrupt state it helps with the programme.

    Great post.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,330
    professeur wrote:
    sherer wrote:
    anyone got any links to the data they hacked ? Would be interesting to see what TUEs everyone is on.

    Would like to think the TUE system isnt being abuse but I doubt it

    Looks like they want to control the flow of information so there hasn't been a mass data dump.

    From the Guardian...
    Documents published on the Fancy Bear website appeared to show that Serena Williams had taken the restricted drugs prednisone, prednisolone, methylprednisone, hydromorphone and oxycodone between 2010 and 2015, while her sister Venus had taken prednisone, prednisolone, triamcinolone and formoterol. Biles, meanwhile, was given methylphenidate for attention-deficit disorder. In all cases, however, Wada confirmed that the athletes had committed no offence because they had been granted therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) by the relevant international sports federations and national anti-doping organisations.

    I find that quite ironic - is there a touch of American hypocrisy there or is it just me?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!

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