Drugs in other sports and the media.

cruff

Pinno wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

was chatting to an anti-doping officer who'd worked on the Paralympics - as well as substances, they have to check for 'prohibited methods', including wheelchair athletes who break their own toes just before their competition, because they can't feel it, and the adrenalin rush gives them a performance boost.

crazy.

So breaking one's toes induces adrenalin production?

No - I think the OP was confused when he spoke to the anti-doping officer. It raises blood pressure and heart rate, which improve performance - but doesn't increase adrenalin production. It's called 'boosting' and has been around for ages, apparently.

yorkshireraw

zebulebu wrote:

Pinno wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

was chatting to an anti-doping officer who'd worked on the Paralympics - as well as substances, they have to check for 'prohibited methods', including wheelchair athletes who break their own toes just before their competition, because they can't feel it, and the adrenalin rush gives them a performance boost.

crazy.

So breaking one's toes induces adrenalin production?

No - I think the OP was confused when he spoke to the anti-doping officer. It raises blood pressure and heart rate, which improve performance - but doesn't increase adrenalin production. It's called 'boosting' and has been around for ages, apparently.

You're correct - I knew there was an effect but mixed up why that was. 'adrenalin rush' was a lazy use of the term. Either way, the thought that people are so desperate to win a Paralympic medal that they'd resort to deliberately injuring themselves is worrying.

TheBigBean

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

joelsim

TheBigBean wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

Michael Johnson rather than Ben Johnson.

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

Why not? There 's never been even the slightest scrap of evidence against him. Not even a dodgy association. He even returned one of his relay gold medals voluntarily when one of his team confessed he had doped

Crozza

RichN95 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

Why not? There 's never been even the slightest scrap of evidence against him. Not even a dodgy association. He even returned one of his relay gold medals voluntarily when one of his team confessed he had doped

plus he commentates for the BBC, thus making him innocent by association

TheBigBean

RichN95 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

Why not? There 's never been even the slightest scrap of evidence against him. Not even a dodgy association. He even returned one of his relay gold medals voluntarily when one of his team confessed he had doped

He returned it in advance of being stripped of it.

It's the age old problem that no one can prove that they were clean. Well, I suppose they could request retests, but no one ever does that. Anyway, he ran in an era when we know that pretty much every cyclist was doping. We also know that lots of athletes failed drug tests and that, for example, Pettigrew admitted using EPO and growth hormone (the reason Johnson was stripped of the relay medal). So clearly these particular drugs which ravaged cycling were useful in athletics as well, widely available and there was no test for them. Naturally, he could have been a saint, but he was a very very quick saint when you compare him to all the other dopers before and after. And that's before you consider all the various steroids that were no doubt available, but play a much lesser role in cycling.

All of these pundits that pop up on TV and act astonished whenever there is a doping allegation are part of the problem in my opinion. Even if they were all saints they would have been offered drugs, pushed to take drugs etc. (like Bassons) for their entire careers, but that story is never told. The only expression is the disbelief that someone could have been doping. At least cycling has made some progress on this front. Whenever doping comes up Kelly goes very quiet!

kingstongraham

TheBigBean wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

The previous WR holder - Johnson - is widely held to be one of the top handful of greatest athletes ever. His achievements are truly astonishing.

I wouldn't want to be using Johnson as the benchmark for cleanliness.

Why not? There 's never been even the slightest scrap of evidence against him. Not even a dodgy association. He even returned one of his relay gold medals voluntarily when one of his team confessed he had doped

He returned it in advance of being stripped of it.

It's the age old problem that no one can prove that they were clean. Well, I suppose they could request retests, but no one ever does that. Anyway, he ran in an era when we know that pretty much every cyclist was doping. We also know that lots of athletes failed drug tests and that, for example, Pettigrew admitted using EPO and growth hormone (the reason Johnson was stripped of the relay medal). So clearly these particular drugs which ravaged cycling were useful in athletics as well, widely available and there was no test for them. Naturally, he could have been a saint, but he was a very very quick saint when you compare him to all the other dopers before and after. And that's before you consider all the various steroids that were no doubt available, but play a much lesser role in cycling.

All of these pundits that pop up on TV and act astonished whenever there is a doping allegation are part of the problem in my opinion. Even if they were all saints they would have been offered drugs, pushed to take drugs etc. (like Bassons) for their entire careers, but that story is never told. The only expression is the disbelief that someone could have been doping. At least cycling has made some progress on this front. Whenever doping comes up Kelly goes very quiet!

I thought you'd at least come up with Rupp and Salazar, not just "he was good, ergo..."

yorkshireraw

It comes down to whether they can rationalise it to themselves and convince themselves they were clean (as they see it - even tho others may take a different view).
Paula Radcliffe is very clear about anyone done for EPO etc., but she was an admitted client of the infamous Hans-Wilhelm Müller-Wohlfahrt, who himself has spoken openly about treating people with Actovegin (Calfs blood sounds much more natural when it's discussed). AFAIK Paula has never come out and explicitly denied using that. She also stated back in her '04 book that she had been diagnosed with Thyroid issues / problems and received treatment. In the current day context we know a lot of these prescriptions for thyroxine etc. are contrived as it can have a recovery / performance enhancing effect. If you go looking for an issue that presents as tiredness, stress etc. in high-training athletes, there's a good chance you'll be able to find the symptoms. Paula has never passed comment on the spate of thyroid stories either in the Times (Emma Jackson) or coming out of the US and the Oregon Project.

There was not test for HGH (still isn't I think?) nor EPO back in '96 when Johnson did his double. You could quite easily see an athlete rationalise that 'if they ain't testing for it, it's not banned'.

Of course none of that means MJ was up to no good, but could explain how he can discuss say Gatlin, with his clear bang to rights case, and not squirm about it.

TheBigBean

I think there is also the point that lots of drugs make it possible to train harder which many athletes view as fair game because they are still doing the training, and still suffering from the hard work. It's not directly making them quicker in a specific race.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't agree with this thought process.

r0bh

YorkshireRaw wrote:

There was not test for HGH (still isn't I think?) nor EPO back in '96 when Johnson did his double. You could quite easily see an athlete rationalise that 'if they ain't testing for it, it's not banned'.

Of course none of that means MJ was up to no good, but could explain how he can discuss say Gatlin, with his clear bang to rights case, and not squirm about it.

Or maybe, given that there is no evidence Michael Johnson has taken a prohibited substance, he can not squirm about it because he has nothing to squirm about?

The discussion here is sadly heading towards clinic levels - "he/she is/was fast so therefore must have been doping".

salsiccia1

r0bh wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

There was not test for HGH (still isn't I think?) nor EPO back in '96 when Johnson did his double. You could quite easily see an athlete rationalise that 'if they ain't testing for it, it's not banned'.

Of course none of that means MJ was up to no good, but could explain how he can discuss say Gatlin, with his clear bang to rights case, and not squirm about it.

Or maybe, given that there is no evidence Michael Johnson has taken a prohibited substance, he can not squirm about it because he has nothing to squirm about?

The discussion here is sadly heading towards clinic levels - "he/she is/was fast so therefore must have been doping".

Lance never failed a test...





But seriously, this is the logical outcome of sports that are blighted by PED use. Nobody knows who or what to trust, and so anybody who is outstanding is immediately suspicious. Like cycling, in most people's eyes track and field athletes are split into two groups: those who've been caught for PEDs, and those who just haven't been caught yet.

Richmond Racer 2

zebulebu wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

^ you forget, Van Niekerk is South African therefore must be clean.

Winner winner, chicken dinner

The bloke is an absolute tool - double standards don't even come close. He probably reckons Daryl Impey was truly a victim of a pharmacist with bad hygeine...

Hmmm *suspicious face*

hypster

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Lance never failed a test...



But seriously, this is the logical outcome of sports that are blighted by PED use. Nobody knows who or what to trust, and so anybody who is outstanding is immediately suspicious. Like cycling, in most people's eyes track and field athletes are split into two groups: those who've been caught for PEDs, and those who just haven't been caught yet.

I think you'll find that he did, it's just that the World never got to hear about it for one reason or another.

salsiccia1

hypster wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Lance never failed a test...



But seriously, this is the logical outcome of sports that are blighted by PED use. Nobody knows who or what to trust, and so anybody who is outstanding is immediately suspicious. Like cycling, in most people's eyes track and field athletes are split into two groups: those who've been caught for PEDs, and those who just haven't been caught yet.

I think you'll find that he did, it's just that the World never got to hear about it for one reason or another.

I know, I was just parroting the standard response from his supporters when the mud started flying. It was only the one though, wasn't it?

Bloody hell, I can't believe I've started this conversation. It's the cycling equivalent of Godwin's Law, innit

pinno

TheBigBean wrote:

I think there is also the point that lots of drugs make it possible to train harder which many athletes view as fair game because they are still doing the training, and still suffering from the hard work. It's not directly making them quicker in a specific race.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't agree with this thought process.

That's that cognitive dissonance popping up again.

I do not know where this pans out. I think athletics needs a blood passport as in cycling but most of the drugs are used for medicinal purposes in one form or another. That means that advances in general medicine will always be considered for performance enhancement and any measures are simply fire fighting as those measures will be reactionary and reliant on testing techniques being developed.

Richmond Racer 2

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I think there is also the point that lots of drugs make it possible to train harder which many athletes view as fair game because they are still doing the training, and still suffering from the hard work. It's not directly making them quicker in a specific race.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't agree with this thought process.

That's that cognitive dissonance popping up again.

I do not know where this pans out. I think athletics needs a blood passport as in cycling but most of the drugs are used for medicinal purposes in one form or another. That means that advances in general medicine will always be considered for performance enhancement and any measures are simply fire fighting as those measures will be reactionary and reliant on testing techniques being developed.

Athletics has the ABP. Athletes have been popped. If you look on IAAF.org and search on Anti Doping, doco of current bans and ADRV details including ABP is updated monthly

kingstongraham

Salsiccia1 wrote:

r0bh wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

There was not test for HGH (still isn't I think?) nor EPO back in '96 when Johnson did his double. You could quite easily see an athlete rationalise that 'if they ain't testing for it, it's not banned'.

Of course none of that means MJ was up to no good, but could explain how he can discuss say Gatlin, with his clear bang to rights case, and not squirm about it.

Or maybe, given that there is no evidence Michael Johnson has taken a prohibited substance, he can not squirm about it because he has nothing to squirm about?

The discussion here is sadly heading towards clinic levels - "he/she is/was fast so therefore must have been doping".

Lance never failed a test...





But seriously, this is the logical outcome of sports that are blighted by PED use. Nobody knows who or what to trust, and so anybody who is outstanding is immediately suspicious. Like cycling, in most people's eyes track and field athletes are split into two groups: those who've been caught for PEDs, and those who just haven't been caught yet.

Three groups - you missed out "those from my country".

Richmond Racer 2

^why, which is your country KingstonGraham? We'll run a poll and let you know

kingstongraham

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^why, which is your country KingstonGraham? We'll run a poll and let you know

Doesn't matter. On the whole it works pretty well for whoever says it.

pinno

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

I think there is also the point that lots of drugs make it possible to train harder which many athletes view as fair game because they are still doing the training, and still suffering from the hard work. It's not directly making them quicker in a specific race.

For the avoidance of doubt, I don't agree with this thought process.

That's that cognitive dissonance popping up again.

I do not know where this pans out. I think athletics needs a blood passport as in cycling but most of the drugs are used for medicinal purposes in one form or another. That means that advances in general medicine will always be considered for performance enhancement and any measures are simply fire fighting as those measures will be reactionary and reliant on testing techniques being developed.

Athletics has the ABP. Athletes have been popped. If you look on IAAF.org and search on Anti Doping, doco of current bans and ADRV details including ABP is updated monthly

I see - some transparency then?

ddraver

#Ask Farah has not gone well...

a bit schadenfreudey for cycling fans but it's hard not to snigger a little

kingstongraham

ddraver wrote:

#Ask Farah has not gone well...

a bit schadenfreudey for cycling fans but it's hard not to snigger a little

Twitter is always certain, isn't it?

above_the_cows

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

^ you forget, Van Niekerk is South African therefore must be clean.

van Niekerk may well be worth a 5 or 6 or even higher simply due to the astonishing nature of his achievements. It's Trott that seems like a political (ie anti-British) statement to me, along with Thomas (assuming this is Geraint). Thomas is good but has yet to actually deliver a performance to compare with Radcliffe's marathon WR. There must be zillions of athletes not mentioned who are as suspicious/insuspicious as Trott and Thomas. Radcliffe's place on the index seems fair, in the interests of balance.

The thing about Trott also is that so much of her success is also down to her excellent bike handling skills and supreme tactical nous. There may be other riders as good as her physically but there aren't any as clever.

shinyhelmut

Above The Cows wrote:

The thing about Trott also is that so much of her success is also down to her excellent bike handling skills and supreme tactical nous. There may be other riders as good as her physically but there aren't any as clever.

Absolutely, to watch her riding the elimination is like watching an artist at work.

joelsim

Above The Cows wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

^ you forget, Van Niekerk is South African therefore must be clean.

van Niekerk may well be worth a 5 or 6 or even higher simply due to the astonishing nature of his achievements. It's Trott that seems like a political (ie anti-British) statement to me, along with Thomas (assuming this is Geraint). Thomas is good but has yet to actually deliver a performance to compare with Radcliffe's marathon WR. There must be zillions of athletes not mentioned who are as suspicious/insuspicious as Trott and Thomas. Radcliffe's place on the index seems fair, in the interests of balance.

The thing about Trott also is that so much of her success is also down to her excellent bike handling skills and supreme tactical nous. There may be other riders as good as her physically but there aren't any as clever.

I've yet to see another rider as good as her physically or tactically.

sherer

ddraver wrote:

#Ask Farah has not gone well...

a bit schadenfreudey for cycling fans but it's hard not to snigger a little

I don't do Twitter what happened ?

bobmcstuff

sherer wrote:

ddraver wrote:

#Ask Farah has not gone well...

a bit schadenfreudey for cycling fans but it's hard not to snigger a little

I don't do Twitter what happened ?

Neither do I but it's not a hard guess - a load of people made insinuations about drug use instead of using the hashtag for arse kissing which is presumably what it was meant for.

davidof

Norwegians are not happy to find out that nearly all their cross-country skiing stars are all snorting Ventoline like it is going out of fashion. Apparently the drug is proposed to all athletes by the federation, even those without "asthma" to "protect from the cold". Norwegian superstar Therese Johaug was very ill at ease to get asked questions by one of the main TV channels this week: "I didn't recognize myself in what was written by the press this week, but it really hurt me. I've been sick, that's how you treat an illness, with medicine" she told the press. Her colleague Johnsrud Sundby has been banned (for 2 months) for abusive ventoline use.... lucky for him its the summer.

The sports federations claims "it is not performance enhancing, you can't compare elite athletes with a member of the public".

http://www.tv2.no/sport/8566894/

pinno

Those Norwegians have been huffing and puffing so much, they have melted all the snow!