Kimmage and the UCI
Comments
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colint wrote:On the timing point, I'm pretty sure most knew about doping pre 1990, Festina was 1988 !!
Ouch. Can I ask, how 'old' were you in 1988/1998? Or, what year did you start to realise the sport was riddled with serious PEDs, like EPO? (Don't forget that UK internet connection was only 10% in 1998, with perhaps no such thing as an BR or Asylum forum).
I became aware of a problem through newspapers with the deaths of Oosterbos and Draaijer and realised something was seriously wrong with the PDM affair (again a newspaper). I hadn't heard of Kimmage and his book until 2002 or so. Wish I read the book back in the nineties, but I probably would have dismissed him as a mad-man. 2002 was also the year I spoke to several of my French colleagues that seemed very well informed about PEDs abuse at grass-root level. At the time, I thought they were mad... now look what we know! For me, Festina 1998 was probably the watershed moment. 8 years after Kimmage's Rough Ride. It is possibly the first documented and public admittance to the problems of omerta and (what turned out to be) EPO. Hero, god, prophet, muppet or simply an ok or so-so journo, the year was 1990. 22 YEARS AGO!0 -
iainf72 wrote:colint wrote:
On the timing point, I'm pretty sure most knew about doping pre 1990, Festina was 1988 !!
Festina was 1998
Doping before 1991 or so was pretty lightweight anyway. Not great but it wasn't as skewing as it became after that
I thought the advent of EPO in the peleton was 1989, some time before it was a properly reg'ed drug? I.e. when it was still in clinical trials? Will try and find a ref.0 -
In re. to my post above and after a net search, among a lot of misinformation and more misinformation, there's the admittance of Mathieu Hermans to the use of EPO in the Tour dF of 1989 which he won Tusher style. :shock:
[source: wiki nl, referencing 'het laatste geel' by Mart Smeets]0 -
It's so difficult to maintain clear distinctions between the various pertinent elements in this sort of thing...
On a personal level, I find myself viewing Kimmage as sometimes a tosser (totally agree with colint about the Wiggins article - just the choice of vocab at key points smacked of a vaguely desperate journo, with a largely feeble story, trying to generate suspicion and ambiguity towards Wiggins. My take was, by all means suggest that people should be careful before dismissing the possibility that anyone could be guilty... But don't then imply that because someone changes the way they relate to you, or you perceive a shift in the messages you get from them, means that something fishy must be going on).
But, at other times, I'll try my best to disregard the personal and remember that without pushy @rsehole investigative journalists we'd be a good deal further in the sh!t with all this: these are the people that need to be around asking questions when the likes of Armstrong, etc, are feeling like they've got it all sown up.
Fundamentally, Kimmage's position is one I agree with - just not always his technique. I admire his courage.
Remember Damien Ressiot who was part of the L'Equipe team who worked out that some of the "anonymous" positives from '99 TdF were in fact Armstrong's? That, I thought, was proper ballsy journalism. Then, some years later, he wrote that piece that leaked the UCI's rider "suspicion index" which only seemed to raise more questions...
Proper journalism deals with the very worst and the very best of what human beings are capable of: while the rest of us are doing our upmost to remove the ugliness from our lives, journo's are often diving into it head-first. I've seen first hand the warping effect that can have on a writer trying to make sense of things (which is partly why "copy" goes via at least one editor (and probably a lawyer) - so why The Sunday Times aren't being involved here, I don't really get).
When you have tossers of the magnitude of Armstrong ruling the roost, you need tossers of equal magnitude to confront them... See any great conflict of history for evidence.0 -
Perhaps if he was still officially employed by the big newspaper Hein & Pat might be less reluctant to go for him. He'll still have his contacts there and maybe this is all going to plan – he's got the UCI to set up an appearence in a court where everybody will be making statements under oath, for example.0
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OCDuPalais wrote:Proper journalism deals with the very worst and the very best of what human beings are capable of: while the rest of us are doing our upmost to remove the ugliness from our lives, journo's are often diving into it head-first. I've seen first hand the warping effect that can have on a writer trying to make sense of things (which is partly why "copy" goes via at least one editor (and probably a lawyer) - so why The Sunday Times aren't being involved here, I don't really get).
I agree with all you say, the issue for me is balance; I recall that Operacion Puerto(a?) also uncovered a lot of anonymous blood rumoured to belong to footballers. We know that Ronaldo had a blood transfusion to repair a bruise, Zidane felt 'refreshed' after having one and all the stories of Rugby, Tennis etc. Thats not to mention that over half of the U23 World Cup players in Mexico 2010 were found to have Clembuterol in their blood, but were forgiven as FIFA declared the meat they ate was contaminated, indeed the FIFA doctor was relieved no-one was made ill. The parallel to Contador with that is hysterical.
Why are these hero journos not hammering into the bins outside the footballers stadiums and houses? Because its easier to get column inches by focussing on cycling. I wonder if any journo/newspaper would have the balls to take on FIFA, UEFA about there seemingly total disregard for drugs in football. That would get some column inches IF any newspaper dared to print it.
That said, I do also agree with Le Commentateur, this case could if well planned properly blow up in peoples faces, cycle sports will be the biggest. The global press will have another field day on cycling. Our sport will never win until there is a balanced public view on doping.0 -
If he'd still been at a newspaper then they would have settled out of court straight away. It's only six grand - not worth wasting time on.Le Commentateur wrote:Perhaps if he was still officially employed by the big newspaper Hein & Pat might be less reluctant to go for him. He'll still have his contacts there and maybe this is all going to plan – he's got the UCI to set up an appearence in a court where everybody will be making statements under oath, for example.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Nick Fitt wrote:OCDuPalais wrote:Proper journalism deals with the very worst and the very best of what human beings are capable of: while the rest of us are doing our upmost to remove the ugliness from our lives, journo's are often diving into it head-first. I've seen first hand the warping effect that can have on a writer trying to make sense of things (which is partly why "copy" goes via at least one editor (and probably a lawyer) - so why The Sunday Times aren't being involved here, I don't really get).
I agree with all you say, the issue for me is balance; I recall that Operacion Puerto(a?) also uncovered a lot of anonymous blood rumoured to belong to footballers. We know that Ronaldo had a blood transfusion to repair a bruise, Zidane felt 'refreshed' after having one and all the stories of Rugby, Tennis etc. Thats not to mention that over half of the U23 World Cup players in Mexico 2010 were found to have Clembuterol in their blood, but were forgiven as FIFA declared the meat they ate was contaminated, indeed the FIFA doctor was relieved no-one was made ill. The parallel to Contador with that is hysterical.
Why are these hero journos not hammering into the bins outside the footballers stadiums and houses? Because its easier to get column inches by focussing on cycling. I wonder if any journo/newspaper would have the balls to take on FIFA, UEFA about there seemingly total disregard for drugs in football. That would get some column inches IF any newspaper dared to print it.
That said, I do also agree with Le Commentateur, this case could if well planned properly blow up in peoples faces, cycle sports will be the biggest. The global press will have another field day on cycling. Our sport will never win until there is a balanced public view on doping.
You know what after a quick chat around work I would say that most football fans (UK at least) wouldn't care less if they took EPO, Cocaine or LSD prior to a match, as long as they win they're not too bothered what they get up to.
There's been more than a few suspicious deaths in Europe to indicate some bad EPO usage, and that player that collapsed mid game earlier this year was more than a tiny bit suspicious.
And as for taking on FIFA that's not even on the same page as taking on the UCI.dont knock on death\'s door.....
Ring the bell and leg it...that really pi**es him off....0 -
^^ The deaths in football don't indicate EPO use at all. The 90s deaths from EPO happened at times of rest when the heart rate dropped too low to pump the thickened blood around the body. The deaths in football, however, take place at times of high activity, suggesting a cardiac defect - a problem which kills around 500 people under the age of 25 in Britain every year. The intense stop start nature of professional football is particularly adept at exposing these weaknesses.Twitter: @RichN950
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bigdawg wrote:You know what after a quick chat around work I would say that most football fans (UK at least) wouldn't care less if they took EPO, Cocaine or LSD prior to a match, as long as they win they're not too bothered what they get up to.
There's been more than a few suspicious deaths in Europe to indicate some bad EPO usage, and that player that collapsed mid game earlier this year was more than a tiny bit suspicious.
And as for taking on FIFA that's not even on the same page as taking on the UCI.
And I think that's probably true in cycling as well, count how many covers Armstrong had during his tour wins. The rules say you cant use PEDs though. And I think thats across all sports, unfortunately the various country journos and sporting 'DEAs' only pic on the small kids. Money isnt it.
I'd gladly send Kimmage a few quid to take on FIFA!0 -
RichN95 wrote:^^ The deaths in football don't indicate EPO use at all. The 90s deaths from EPO happened at times of rest when the heart rate dropped too low to pump the thickened blood around the body. The deaths in football, however, take place at times of high activity, suggesting a cardiac defect - a problem which kills around 500 people under the age of 25 in Britain every year. The intense stop start nature of professional football is particularly adept at exposing these weaknesses.
these make interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_ ... n_football
http://www.german-times.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=74
Kind of gives the impression the governing bodies aren't too interested either...dont knock on death\'s door.....
Ring the bell and leg it...that really pi**es him off....0 -
That has nothing to do with my point though. Sure there's most likely doping in football. But to link players collapsing afnd sometimes dying to EPO use is just stupid and displays a clear lack of understanding.bigdawg wrote:RichN95 wrote:^^ The deaths in football don't indicate EPO use at all. The 90s deaths from EPO happened at times of rest when the heart rate dropped too low to pump the thickened blood around the body. The deaths in football, however, take place at times of high activity, suggesting a cardiac defect - a problem which kills around 500 people under the age of 25 in Britain every year. The intense stop start nature of professional football is particularly adept at exposing these weaknesses.
these make interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_ ... n_football
http://www.german-times.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=74
Kind of gives the impression the governing bodies aren't too interested either...Twitter: @RichN950 -
bigdawg wrote:RichN95 wrote:^^ The deaths in football don't indicate EPO use at all. The 90s deaths from EPO happened at times of rest when the heart rate dropped too low to pump the thickened blood around the body. The deaths in football, however, take place at times of high activity, suggesting a cardiac defect - a problem which kills around 500 people under the age of 25 in Britain every year. The intense stop start nature of professional football is particularly adept at exposing these weaknesses.
these make interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_ ... n_football
http://www.german-times.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=74
Kind of gives the impression the governing bodies aren't too interested either...
I think the 'whereabouts rule' is key. players know well in advance of any test and, I think certain PEDs are only traceable for a certain period of time. The % of tests v appearance in competition in most other sports compared to cycling is ludicrously low.0 -
Romain Bardet posted an interesting (in terms of a pro's viewpoint) tweet yesterday about OOC testing and ADAMS system:
'Pertinence des controles inopines ADAMS? Pas de controleurs depuis mi-janvier et aujourd hui deuxieme test en 8 jours "pour avoir le bon nombre en 2012"
My French aint great - and another poster will translate it far better - but his frustration seems to be that there's this huge gap in him being tested OOC, with his last test mid-Jan, and then 2 tests in the last 8 days.0 -
The UCI have won a similar case against Floyd Landis, which I doubt he made any effort to oppose. Cycling Weekly tweeted a link to the ruling (sorry, can't c+p on phone) which is worth reading for the list of things Landis isn't allowed to say any more, which is hilarious.Twitter: @RichN950
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Here's a link to the Landis judgement - it's extraordinary...
https://webshare.uci.ch/data/public/1d6 ... hp?lang=en0 -
RichN95 wrote:The UCI have won a similar case against Floyd Landis, which I doubt he made any effort to oppose. Cycling Weekly tweeted a link to the ruling (sorry, can't c+p on phone) which is worth reading for the list of things Landis isn't allowed to say any more, which is hilarious.
“The judgement upholds and protects the integrity of the UCI and its Presidents,” read the UCI statement. “False accusations are unacceptable and unlawful and the UCI will continue to defend itself against all such accusations.”
"Article two of the verdict goes into quite specific detail as to what Landis is not allowed to say about the UCI in the future, noting that it is forbidden for him to say that the UCI, McQuaid and Verbruggen “have concealed cases of doping, received money for doing so, have accepted money from Lance Armstrong to conceal a doping case, have protected certain racing cyclists, concealed cases of doping, have engaged in manipulation, particularly of tests and races, have hesitated and delayed publishing the results of a positive test on Alberto Contador, have accepted bribes, are corrupt, are terrorists, have no regard for the rules, load the dice, are fools, do not have a genuine desire to restore discipline to cycling, are full of shit, are clowns, their words are worthless, are liars, walk like stupid ducks, are no different to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, have hands like naked ladies, or to make any similar other allegations of that kind.”
Sensational.
I may have added one or two of my own...0 -
I really like the idea of publicly disseminating a libel ruling which openly states exactly which libels you're not allowed to state :-)RichN95 wrote:The UCI have won a similar case against Floyd Landis, which I doubt he made any effort to oppose. Cycling Weekly tweeted a link to the ruling (sorry, can't c+p on phone) which is worth reading for the list of things Landis isn't allowed to say any more, which is hilarious.0 -
That is brilliant!. I reckon that if Floyd knew how this would work out, he'd have called them a few more names too, just so he could see if "cockwomble" and "flapcheese" would make it through a Swiss court spellchecker.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0
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I guess Americans just aren't that creative. Landis is no Malcolm Tucker, that's for sure.LangerDan wrote:That is brilliant!. I reckon that if Floyd knew how this would work out, he'd have called them a few more names too, just so he could see if "cockwomble" and "flapcheese" would make it through a Swiss court spellchecker.
I also see this as a lost opportunity to bring 'nincompoop' back into fashion.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
I guess Americans just aren't that creative. Landis is no Malcolm Tucker, that's for sure.LangerDan wrote:That is brilliant!. I reckon that if Floyd knew how this would work out, he'd have called them a few more names too, just so he could see if "cockwomble" and "flapcheese" would make it through a Swiss court spellchecker.
I also see this as a lost opportunity to bring 'nincompoop' back into fashion.
Kimmage is no doubt reading the judgement and cranking up his "Roger Mellie Profanisaurus" app as we speak.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
“have concealed cases of doping, received money for doing so, have accepted money from Lance Armstrong to conceal a doping case, have protected certain racing cyclists, concealed cases of doping, have engaged in manipulation, particularly of tests and races, have hesitated and delayed publishing the results of a positive test on Alberto Contador, have accepted bribes, are corrupt, are terrorists, have no regard for the rules, load the dice, are fools, do not have a genuine desire to restore discipline to cycling, are full of shit, are clowns, their words are worthless, are liars, are no different to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, or to make any similar other allegations of that kind.”
Actual list of words just in case anyone gets confused by ducks or ladies...
What a farcical judgement that will look ridiculous once USADA publish their evidence. Not sure if it will fully back Floyd up in all his descriptions, so some bans may still be valid 0 -
Some stupendous tweeting this afternoon from @lioneljbirnie today. A must read set of tweets.
All connected to Pat McQuaids dodgy family connections to cycle interests/business that can be traced back to him in his position at UCI.
Very damning and very incriminating. Some - almost farcial. In the sights are;
Darach McQuaid (brother)
Andrew McQuaid (pats son)
Don't hae time to link or reproduce word for word but its good stuff.
Pat cant relinquish his position at UCI. His family need him there!0 -
Playing devil's advocate, you'll find family and friend connections to Presidents of a lot of sports federations...but doesnt make it any more palatable of course0
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tremayne wrote:Some stupendous tweeting this afternoon from @lioneljbirnie today. A must read set of tweets.
All connected to Pat McQuaids dodgy family connections to cycle interests/business that can be traced back to him in his position at UCI.
Very damning and very incriminating. Some - almost farcial. In the sights are;
Darach McQuaid (brother)
Andrew McQuaid (pats son)
Don't hae time to link or reproduce word for word but its good stuff.
Pat cant relinquish his position at UCI. His family need him there!
Oh for fucks sake, just when I think my sport has hit rock bottom you read stuff like this. I dont doubt its authenticity either. But having Sepp Blatters Nephew running the company that has the TV rights for the UCI is fucking incredible. And I thought football was rotten filthy0 -
It seems to surprise him that the UCI is made up of people who have an involvement in cycling.Richmond Racer wrote:Playing devil's advocate, I bet its the same thing at most sports federations...Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
It seems to surprise him that the UCI is made up of people who have an involvement in cycling.Richmond Racer wrote:Playing devil's advocate, I bet its the same thing at most sports federations...
Hmm...any sporting world is a small world by its very nature...0 -
RichN95 wrote:
It seems to surprise him that the UCI is made up of people who have an involvement in cycling.Richmond Racer wrote:Playing devil's advocate, I bet its the same thing at most sports federations...
It seems to surprise him that the UCI is made up of people who "DID" have an involvement in cycling.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
tremayne wrote:Some stupendous tweeting this afternoon from @lioneljbirnie today. A must read set of tweets.
All connected to Pat McQuaids dodgy family connections to cycle interests/business that can be traced back to him in his position at UCI.
Very damning and very incriminating. Some - almost farcial. In the sights are;
Darach McQuaid (brother)
Andrew McQuaid (pats son)
Don't hae time to link or reproduce word for word but its good stuff.
Pat cant relinquish his position at UCI. His family need him there
superb... Pat & hein dont do sarcasm so they probably would'nt get it.0 -
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
