Hillsborough Report

warreng

To answer your points (and they are all covered in incredible depth in yesterday's report)

1. The crush developed due to poor policing and funnelling outside the ground
2. HSE did 3 seperate counts using CCTV - the number of people equated to the number of tickets sold - proving that there weren't hordes of ticketless fans
3. My ticket was never checked
4. The police used a technique whereby the fans were allowed to find their own level - they assumed that the crowd would filter themselves into appropriate areas - of course they all went to the central pens in the absemce of stewards
5. There was no "surge" - just a steady built up of pressure that felt like being stuck in a vice

Simply put the policing was in adequate - there was no unruly behaviour

I hope this answers your questions

bails87

A thousand people gently nudging forwards, while on a slope, is an incredible force when you're at the bottom of the slop and trapped against a wire fence.

Wallace1492

walkingbootweather wrote:

This was clearly a terrible tragedy and the behaviour of the Authorities and some of the media was disgusting. However can you help me understand one aspect of this terrible chapter in our history. I'm not trying to make any points, just trying to get my head around what happened.

Simply put, how did so many people get crushed? Were more tickets sold than there was room to accommodate? Did anyone without a ticket gain entry? We now know that the Police ordered the opening of the turnstile, but were people driven in or was it their desire not to miss the game that made them push forward?

Probably a bit of everything. A combination of circumstances. Roadworks left a lot of fans arriving late, and there was an urgency to get in the ground. The two pens were full, and the police opted to open the gate to allieviate the mass of folk outside, however, the open gate led directly to the already full pens, and the weight of people heading in led to the crush and tragedy. A combination of a poor outdated stadium, late arriving fans anxious to see their team and poor crowd control processes and procedures. There is plenty more online to explain the circumstances in full, but I think that is it in a nutshell.

Edit - Warren explains it much better.

warreng

Also, on the ticketless bit (this is a personal bugbear). At every public event I've been too, sporting or otherwise, there are touts outside selling tickets - therefore there are people without tickets using this "service". If you open the gates to relieve pressure I'd imagine you then bypass the turnstile route and people without tickets would be able to gain entry. As previously mentioned I never had my ticket checked.

Wallace1492

WarrenG wrote:

Also, on the ticketless bit (this is a personal bugbear). At every public event I've been too, sporting or otherwise, there are touts outside selling tickets - therefore there are people without tickets using this "service". If you open the gates to relieve pressure I'd imagine you then bypass the turnstile route and people without tickets would be able to gain entry. As previously mentioned I never had my ticket checked.

Did you gain entry via the gate that was opened then? Can i ask if you did what the conditions were like outside at the time. I have been in some large football crowds and once or twice have got a little scared, but the thought of what happened on that day terifies me. I understand if you don't want to say.

warreng

Oh no, I'll talk about it all day! My wife gave up listening around 1998 (and I only met her in 1996 - boomtish).

I went through the gate that was opened - as directed to by a policeman. We were genuinely expecting an announcement to delay kickoff. It was dangerous and there was a crush developing but you trust policeman don't you?

Wallace1492

WarrenG wrote:

Oh no, I'll talk about it all day! My wife gave up listening around 1998 (and I only met her in 1996 - boomtish).

I went through the gate that was opened - as directed to by a policeman. We were genuinely expecting an announcement to delay kickoff. It was dangerous and there was a crush developing but you trust policeman don't you?

Cheers. Maybe i'm wrong, but I would suspect that initially the Police were trying to do the right thing, believing that opening that gate would allieviate the pressure and help the crowd disperse into the ground. If that is the case then I feel for the Officer that gave that order, it must be a horrible legacy for them.

warreng

That same officer was the one that started the lies and smears. Plus he retired on a full pension and plays golf daily at a bournemouth golf course so my sympathy is with the other members of the police that day who actually tried to help the dying

Wallace1492

WarrenG wrote:

That same officer was the one that started the lies and smears. Plus he retired on a full pension and plays golf daily at a bournemouth golf course so my sympathy is with the other members of the police that day who actually tried to help the dying

I was not aware of that, therefore my sympathy has been changed. No doubt some Police really tried to help, and they must be horrified at the turn of the events. Pity not enough of them spoke out at the time.

supersonic

No doubt some Police really tried to help, and they must be horrified at the turn of the events.

Very much so. My uncle was a PC at the game, he still does not talk about it.

walkingbootweather

WarrenG wrote:

I hope this answers your questions

It does. Thank you.

JamesB5446

supersonic wrote:

No doubt some Police really tried to help, and they must be horrified at the turn of the events.

Very much so. My uncle was a PC at the game, he still does not talk about it.

Maybe he should talk about it.

People like him not talking about things is why cover ups happen.

supersonic

JamesB5446 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

No doubt some Police really tried to help, and they must be horrified at the turn of the events.

Very much so. My uncle was a PC at the game, he still does not talk about it.

Maybe he should talk about it.

People like him not talking about things is why cover ups happen.

"People like him"? He was deeply affected by it, and it took him a long time to come to terms with what he saw and had to deal with. This has nothing to do with any cover up, but one persons (among many that day) who does not like to discuss with people the horrific circumstances.

Wallace1492

supersonic wrote:

JamesB5446 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

No doubt some Police really tried to help, and they must be horrified at the turn of the events.

Very much so. My uncle was a PC at the game, he still does not talk about it.

Maybe he should talk about it.

People like him not talking about things is why cover ups happen.

"People like him"? He was deeply affected by it, and it took him a long time to come to terms with what he saw and had to deal with. This has nothing to do with any cover up, but one persons (among many that day) who does not like to discuss with people the horrific circumstances.

Thought JamesB post was a tad insensitive. Plenty were complicit with the cover up, but it was certainly orchestrated at a high level. It must have been pretty horrific for the ordinary bobby doing his job that day.

warreng

Agreed, must have been awful for him

Agent57

I'm pleased this has finally all come out and been set straight. I wasn't there, but I've followed the campaign for truth and justice for decades. I've supported the HJC and HFSG with donations and wearing my HJC "Ninetysix" wristband which has prompted a fair few conversations about it all. Even for me, not directly involved other than being a Liverpool fan, this feels such a relief. I can only imagine how families affected by it feel. But it's not over yet. The truth is out there; now justice must be served.

http://www.kop.org/

Daz555

Progress:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19592455

SteppenHerring

If you look at the number of statements altered, the information fed to the press etc., the coverup had to be coming from a very high level. At the time, "football fans" were very much demonised in the wake of events like Heysel (although what I've read recently casts a lot of doubt on the culpability of Liverpool supporters in that). It must've seemed easy to blame them. Despite the number of women and children involved the fact that only one ambulance was let through shows what the police authorities thought of the people involved. Truly shocked to find out that 41 people could've been saved if they'd only had treatment.

WarrenG: Good to hear from someone who was actually there. Although sobering.

First.Aspect

I listened to two interviews this week. Frist was a WPC who testified before the coroner that she was tending to a child well beyond 3:15. It was ruled that on the balance of probabilities she was not, because she was distressed and distracted and official reports elsewhere contradicted her. Second was a doctor from the crowd. He testified before the coroner that he had tried to administer oxygen from a tank, but the tank was empty. The coroner ruled that on the balance of probabilities, this was not the case because he had mentioned a blow to his head, was distrated and because the stadium and the suppliers of the tank said that it simply must have been full.

These people, and no doubt other relatively insignificant individuals, no doubt spoke up. So there is no simple "equal blame", Cleat.

warreng

and the police propose to bring drunkenness up again at the inquests - not the victims because none of them were over the limit (not even the 10 year old dead child who they tested for alcohol - but the people that weren't tested must have been drunk

The bastards aren't going to down without a fight - they plan to lie and lie to the bitter end

warreng

Unbelievable stuff from Duckenfield

tangled_metal

Not really. you think an experienced commander with the skillset and experience to run that major event would have allowed it to happen? If the shit hits the fan duck or get covered. The cops all saw it coming and ducked and dived their way out of trouble. Then pass it off as the Liverpool Fans' fault. I'm sorry Duckenfield was put in over his head, but do not believe that the guy he took over left him in the lurch without passing on a few tips or introducing him to key figures at the stadium. If that was the case he should have been professional enough to admit that he was not ready. I was always under the impression the police like to thing they are a professional public service. Professionals do not act like that, or should not. Anyone not understand why there is a significant fall off in trust in the police forces? Also, anyone understand how they thought it a good idea to put one of the senior officers from South Yorkshire back then in the top position at the Merseyside constabulary back a few years?

At least for all the crap the families took over those years at least what is happening now is a step in the right direction. No redress will ever be good enough but the truth, as far as they will let it out, is something.

warreng

I'm following David Conn on Twitter and it's the last day of Duckenfield's evidence

Unless I'm misreading it, it's pretty much what I've been saying all along

warreng

Apologies for bumping this for those that are sick of it (which I don't think you should be - but I understand). Well, it seems that justice has been served, for me anyway.

dodgy

I keep seeing that 'justice has been served'. I don't. Nobody is punished, Duckenfield has lived the life of Riley on his police pension for 27 years and will continue to do so, there are many others who should face justice but probably won't.

This isn't justice, it's acknowledgement.

warreng

That's why I put "for me anyway" at the end. I understand entirely if the families want Duckenfield & Bettison strung up. But for me, acknowledgement that what I witnessed is fact and now everyone knows makes me, dunno, "happy".

As an aside, there will still be people howling at the moon and still trying to tag blame on LFC football fans.I don't care about them - if they want to display their petty prejudices and childish football tribalism then I feel sorry for them.

smokey_bacon

Acknowledging something is wrong is the first step to getting justice in my opinion. Whichever of its many forms it may take. I'm not old enough to remember what happened and have grown up with the post Hillsborough football culture so I dont feel the same sense of closure. However having said that I want to hope that this starts a decent discussion about change to key parts of the established structure because in that regard nothing much has changed.

I agree with you Warren that there will be some who will pedal the same old, tired lines. There's just no helping some people!

tangled_metal

Part way there but still no justice.

Didn't Duckenfield serve as chief constable of Merseyside police constabulary? What a stupid idea that was, or at least at the time I actually said that to friends and family members. Apart from anything else that means he'll have ended up with a pretty heavy duty pension payout. One that cannot be recalled to the level it was at the time of Hillsborough if he does get found guilty of a crime.

Justice for me is not this verdict because not all the facts are out. There's more to come. The police team that provided investigative support to the coroner still has half their job to do. That is their second investigation was to look into the cover up and criminal actions of the police and other agents. That is going to be interesting.

There's IPPC investigations, other police forces are investigating south Yorkshire constabulary too. On top of that there's calls to reorganize the constabulary, perhaps even disbanding and merging the force with west Yorkshire constabulary.

There's a lot to still happen here before the facts have truly come out. Until that has happened the justice is incomplete.

After all that there's never going to be complete closure. There's just too much that has happened. Ask anyone who'd Liverpool born 'n bred and they'll know someone who's relative, friend or partner died there. Might be second-hand link but Liverpool has that depth of community. Or did back then. It's probably why they've got a chip on their shoulder. Why several people have had to go up up there to apologise like Boris Johnson did. Why there were newsagents still not selling the sun newspaper decade or more after the event.

BTW the cover-up started when some of the 96 were likely still dying. Thatcher just couldn't believe the police would do anything wrong I heard so weight was added to the cover-up. The match commander was on his first match in that role without experience. His predecessor was supposed to do a handover such as contacts, how to handle situations, etc. He never did. IIRC I once read.something about the reason being a kind of jealousy in that he didn't want this new guy to succeed. He either kept putting off the meeting or just went off early. There was so much going on around this tragedy that it must all come out for justice to be seen to be done.

Sorry for long post.

supersonic

Has been quite a reaction to the verdict on some Sheffield forums that I visit. A lot of anger at the decision, many who refuse to believe that some of the Liverpool fans were not deemed to have contributed to the disaster.

rick_chasey

Blind partisanship in football?

'Cor. Never would have thought.