Hillsborough Report

SimonAH

Bad stadium design, bad error in judgement on the ground and in the heat of the moment in croud control.

The first was a product of the times (lessons were learned and designs have changed)
The second was human error, and again lessons have been learned. Risk assesment protocol and the understanding of crowd dynamics have improved beyond all recognition over the intervening years.

The cover up and manipulation (deliberate) of facts is, and was, inexcusable.

I don't blame the guy who ordered the gates to be opened. I do blame the self serving arsewipes who spun the 'picked the pockets of the dead' and 'urinated on the brave coppers' shite.

I sincerely hope that quite a few prosecutions for perverting the cause of justice are, at the very least, generated off the back of this.

Some people need to go to jail.

EKE_38BPM

I'm a bit surprised that people still believed the lies of the cover-up.
There have been numerous documentaries and fact-based dramas over the last ~15 years that has shown the cover-up story to be a tissue of lies, enough for nothing in today's report to be a surprise to me.

Slightly off topic, does anyone remember the episodes of Cracker about a cop killer (Robert Carlisle) trying to kill 96 policemen to match the deathtoll from the stadium? It was BRILLIANT. Even in that it was obvious that the 'official' story was a cover-up.

jejv

bails87 wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

jejv wrote:

Harry Arnold about Kelvin MacKenzie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19517624

Arnold's claimed shock at MacKenzie's behaviour is uncredible.

That's what tabloid editors are like. It's not as if Arnold just met MacKenzie.

I understand that MacKenzie has finally apologised. Too little too late I'm quite sure for those involved.

It sounded more like "it wasn't my fault, I was told that they're all criminal scum who molested the dead so I printed it. It's not my job to check facts."

He's previously said he wasn't sorry, even when he knew some of it was untrue, then he said a Liverpool journo gave him the story, now it's a Sheffield news agency.....

Kelvin Mackenzie wrote:

I too was totally misled. Twenty-three years ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium.

I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster.

Oh Really. An apology of an apology.
I do wonder if there was some quid pro quo between Mackenzie and the South Yorkshire Police.

bails87 wrote:

Someone once said there are only two types of Sun editor, those who are already in jail, and those who should be.

Their power only exists - existed - because of the people who bought these papers. I would say the same for them. I don't see that they can claim naivety either.

jejv

Anyone asked that kelvin dude, or andy or beka what it's like to be dogfood ?
andy might have a choice of prisons.
Has his house sold yet ?

bails87

jejv wrote:

bails87 wrote:

Someone once said there are only two types of Sun editor, those who are already in jail, and those who should be.

Their power only exists - existed - because of the people who bought these papers. I would say the same for them. I don't see that they can claim naivety either.

True. I can't believe anyone who calls themselves a football fan buys the Sun.

tailwindhome

What were Sheffield Wednesday apologising for?

mudcow007

bails87 wrote:

True. I can't believe anyone who calls themselves a football fan buys the Sun.

the Scum you mean

CiB

TailWindHome wrote:

What were Sheffield Wednesday apologising for?

Reading some of the report last night, they were culpable for having ignored recommendations to improve the access and terracing at the ground after similar crowd porblems in the previous year's semi and in the 1981 semi, where by all accounts it was lucky that no-one was killed then, for similar reasons to the 89 events, SWFC knew there were problems with the layout of the ground and access for large numbers of effectively two sets of away fans (not a large home crowd familiar with the layout and limited away fans) but chose to ignore those recommendations, mainly based on cost.

SWFC got away with it a few times but failed to take action. The relevant authorities have some culpability for not insisting on improvements being made but you have to recall that in the 80s football fans were considered the lowest of the low.

mudcow007

what do you think will happen as a result of the report

personally i don't think anyone will be jailed

Wallace1492

Apparantly the stadium did not have a valid safety certificate...... but no doubt that would not have helped.

Anyway, from a fan of football in the 80's, i went to a game most weeks, and remember well being in a large crowd in Glasgow that fateful afternoon. I still shudder at the thought of it.

There is no doubt that fan behaviour did influence the design of the stadium's, but lets realise that it was a very small minority, though their behavious was probably silently condoned by many. The thugs battled with other thugs and usually did not trouble others.

However, lets not suggest that the design of the stadium, because of fans actions caused this. Yes, bad design contributed to it - no matter the reason behind it. Bad crowd control was a major factor. Fans were routinely herded like cattle, but make no mistake, the herders had a duty of care, and on this day they let the fans down badly.

The response from the Police/emergency services once the tragedy started was appalling. People were crying out to be saved and one, yes, one solitary ambulance made it to the pitch.

And as to the lies, decit and cover up that was spewed out by the Police, the Tory MP - Sir Irvine Patnick, and printed in the Scum as "The Truth". Well, words really fail me. No doubt some slap on the wrist for people, but what they have done has caused such hurt that they deserve to be jailed with the key thrown away. How can we as a society tolerate this kind of action by people in powerful places and allow them to get away with it, what message does that give to the new holders of power - you can cover something up, and get away with it for 23 years? even then you only need to say you were misled by some unknows news agency..... It really is incredulous.

What also is extremely worrying is that the truth was known by many for so long, but that people are now "shocked" by what has been found out.

The next football game I attended was the memorial Celtic v Liverpool, in the summer of 1989, that was a rather emotional charged affair.

I had no personal connection with Liverpool, but how the place was depicted was truly disgraceful, both by the media and the Police.

Ultimately there were a number of contributory factors that came together to result in the tragedy, but what then compounded it and was and still is completely unacceptable was the cover up and lies and deceipts.

It is still endemic in the Police - look at the initial reports of Jean Charles DeMenezes shooting, "he was wearing big winter coat" "he vaulted over the barriers" and a few others, all proved to be total lies.

bails87

Wallace1492 wrote:

It is still endemic in the Police - look at the initial reports of Jean Charles DeMenezes shooting, "he was wearing big winter coat" "he vaulted over the barriers" and a few others, all proved to be total lies.

And Forest Gate, and Ian Tomlinson...

Quite often those false truths are reported first by a certain few newspapers, it's almost as if they've got their hands in each other's pockets or something....

SimonAH

I'm waiting for the truth regarding the police shooting that triggered the London riots to come out....that one stank like a bangalor bog too...

BelgianBeerGeek

One thing's for sure: the "mea culpa"s, slanging and finger-pointing have only just begun. Unfortunately I don't think it will help. What is needed here is a bit of calm and a proper enquiry carried out in a level-headed way.
That much is owed to those who were killed.

Daz555

bails87 wrote:

True. I can't believe anyone who calls themselves a human being buys the Sun.

Edited.

Wallace1492

South Yorkshire Police "shocked" by report revelations. In the name of god why? They were the instigators of the cover up! Maybe they are shocked that the truth has come out and they are in fear of being prosecuted.

Jack Straw - Now being critical that the Police were able to cover up and act with impunity, he was in power for 13 years, and presided over an enquiry into Hillsborough that was frankly a waste of time.

Kelvin McKenzie - unapologetic for over 2 decades, even though the weight of FACTS crushed the alleged "TRUTH" that he printed in his rag. I cannot express on here my contempt for this human.

Many others jumped on the "Blame the fans" bandwagon without proof or justification. They should be ashamed.

I am moved in the dignified way that the victims families have reacted in the last day, with finally the truth, although widely known and acknowledged for a long time, finally comes out officially.

bompington

SimonAH wrote:

I'm waiting for the truth regarding the police shooting that triggered the London riots to come out....that one stank like a bangalor bog too...

Somewhat ironic simile in the light of context of your allegation...

supersonic

South Yorkshire Police "shocked" by report revelations. In the name of god why? They were the instigators of the cover up! Maybe they are shocked that the truth has come out and they are in fear of being prosecuted.

I thought it was West Midlands police that conducted the investigation? Either way, still 'the fuzz'.

bails87

supersonic wrote:

South Yorkshire Police "shocked" by report revelations. In the name of god why? They were the instigators of the cover up! Maybe they are shocked that the truth has come out and they are in fear of being prosecuted.

I thought it was West Midlands police that conducted the investigation? Either way, still 'the fuzz'.

Yeah, WMP had some involvement, did they investigate the investigation?

The point still stands, even if WMP did the original investigating they used the witness accounts of SYP officers which had been deliberately edited by SYP senior staff to make SYP look good. For SYP to then say "oh, we had no idea" is a sick joke.

SimonAH

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

I'm waiting for the truth regarding the police shooting that triggered the London riots to come out....that one stank like a bangalor bog too...

Somewhat ironic simile in the light of context of your allegation...

You've lost me Bompington old bean?

I was referring to the shooting of Mark Duggan - a Grauniad article regarding the inquest (or unsurprising lack of one) here;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... en-hearing

And by Bangalore Bog I meant one of these jobbies;



Which I would imagine would smell rather strongly of, well, jobbies.

warreng

I was a student at Liverpool University in 1988-92 and had a season ticket for Anfield for that period. My father is originally from Liverpool and an Evertonian (that's no-one's fault - not even Thatcher's) and he managed to get me two tickets for Hillsborough via work. I was fortunate to come out alive - I know what I saw that day and when I hear people talking about ticketlessness, drunkeness, hooligans, scallies etc being the cause it makes me want to weep. Even then when challenged, people still try and say that the combination of the above must have contributed in some way. It's really very simple - the police lost control of a crowd. It was a warm, sunny day, the LFC fans I saw were happy and relaxed - a higher proportion of kids and women seemed to be about. Anyway, it was a long time ago and some bits are clear to me as if they happened yesterday but some a little fuzzy now

Obviously what happened that day has been well documented and now the truth is emerging after 23 years - however there's a few things that still need to happen and I'm not talking about the criminal proceedings piece. This thread is a perfect example of how the smears, cover up and constant lies are now so ingrained in the public mindset that Hillsborough equates drunken, dodgy scousers. This mindset needs to repeatedly challenged time and time again until yesterday's report is almost remembered word for word. I never thought I'd agree with a Tory PM but Cameron was spot on - the report is black and white. Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster

The only positive I can take from that day is that I was in Liverpool in the immediate aftermath and what I witnessed the local community doing in coming together was magical to witness. I was proud to stand among them then and I'm equally proud when I go back to visit the city now - I've no real connection with place but when I think of what I witnessed in 1989 in Sheffield and afterwards in Liverpool and what I've watched the families achieve without much support I wish I was scouse not english

walkingbootweather

Calm down, calm down. Nobody is disrespecting scousers here.

Clever Pun

Daz555 wrote:

bails87 wrote:

True. I can't believe anyone who calls themselves a human being buys the Sun.

Edited.

QFT

The truth is now out there, the Justice can now start

Yesterday was a rollercoaster for me and I'm only really affected through friends who went and their families. I've supported the HJC for ages and I'm just so proud of what they've helped achieve

bompington

SimonAH wrote:

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

I'm waiting for the truth regarding the police shooting that triggered the London riots to come out....that one stank like a bangalor bog too...

Somewhat ironic simile in the light of context of your allegation...

You've lost me Bompington old bean?

The context of the shooting being implied racism, and the term "bangalore bog" being a cheap laugh at those poor, stinky indians?

bails87

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

I'm waiting for the truth regarding the police shooting that triggered the London riots to come out....that one stank like a bangalor bog too...

Somewhat ironic simile in the light of context of your allegation...

You've lost me Bompington old bean?

The context of the shooting being implied racism, and the term "bangalore bog" being a cheap laugh at those poor, stinky indians?

Really?


In any case, I have colleagues who are of Indian descent, they come back from visiting family saying that they have to rewash all their clothes to get rid of 'that India smell'....

SimonAH

Aha, I understand.

Save however that I was not aware that the shooting was implied racism......just a very dodgy shooting that appears to have been buried to protect the police against charges of, well, basically executing the guy. And a Bangalore bog alliterating nicely, being the smelliest visual imagery that sprung to my febrile brow at the time of writing (slumdog millionaire clip was what triggered it).

Had I been looking for a simile for cold and used Eskimo's *rse would you have inferred that I held the northern first nation people in low regard? Dry as the sole of an arab's flip-flop? Further to the right than a Klansman's fishknife?

I think that you are projecting racism where it does not exist....

Wallace1492

Let's not forget that it was an mighty blunder then an instituational cover up by the Police, who should be a highly regarded public service that led to this tradedy and the bitter aftermath. This was accenuated by Politicians and the media who put forward a pile of lies and untruths as "The Truth".

Over 23 years this has continued, with further cover ups and enquiries being stalled and not helped. For me it is another bitter blow to the Police, and put them again in a very bad light.

At the end of the day, there are dozens of grieving families who have been sold a scurrilous lie by the very authorities who should have been protecting them, it is them I feel for, them and the wider community of friends, relatives and Liverpool supporters. I do hope with this, they can feel completely vindicated (not that they need to be) and that we can now see justice to be done for all the hurt that has been caused by this terrible tragedy.

Lessons must be learned, openness and honesty is required, though it will take a long time.

RIP the 96.

Daz555

Wallace1492 wrote:

Let's not forget that it was an mighty blunder then an instituational cover up by the Police, who should be a highly regarded public service that led to this tradedy and the bitter aftermath.

They have far too much of an opinion in their ranks that they are the police "force". "Service" is exactly what they are and exactly how they should behave.

Wallace1492

WarrenG wrote:

I was a student at Liverpool University in 1988-92 and had a season ticket for Anfield for that period. My father is originally from Liverpool and an Evertonian (that's no-one's fault - not even Thatcher's) and he managed to get me two tickets for Hillsborough via work. I was fortunate to come out alive - I know what I saw that day and when I hear people talking about ticketlessness, drunkeness, hooligans, scallies etc being the cause it makes me want to weep. Even then when challenged, people still try and say that the combination of the above must have contributed in some way. It's really very simple - the police lost control of a crowd. It was a warm, sunny day, the LFC fans I saw were happy and relaxed - a higher proportion of kids and women seemed to be about. Anyway, it was a long time ago and some bits are clear to me as if they happened yesterday but some a little fuzzy now

Obviously what happened that day has been well documented and now the truth is emerging after 23 years - however there's a few things that still need to happen and I'm not talking about the criminal proceedings piece. This thread is a perfect example of how the smears, cover up and constant lies are now so ingrained in the public mindset that Hillsborough equates drunken, dodgy scousers. This mindset needs to repeatedly challenged time and time again until yesterday's report is almost remembered word for word. I never thought I'd agree with a Tory PM but Cameron was spot on - the report is black and white. Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster

The only positive I can take from that day is that I was in Liverpool in the immediate aftermath and what I witnessed the local community doing in coming together was magical to witness. I was proud to stand among them then and I'm equally proud when I go back to visit the city now - I've no real connection with place but when I think of what I witnessed in 1989 in Sheffield and afterwards in Liverpool and what I've watched the families achieve without much support I wish I was scouse not english

Very thoughtful and moving post Warren. I was at the Celtic v Liverpool testimonal game that year for the victims, and shed a tear or two during that match. The combine rendition of "You'll Never Walk Alone" by the Celtic and Liverpool fans was incredibly poinient that day and still sets my hair on end as I remember it. I hope now justice can be achieved.

tailwindhome

WarrenG wrote:

I was a student at Liverpool University in 1988-92 and had a season ticket for Anfield for that period. My father is originally from Liverpool and an Evertonian (that's no-one's fault - not even Thatcher's) and he managed to get me two tickets for Hillsborough via work. I was fortunate to come out alive - I know what I saw that day and when I hear people talking about ticketlessness, drunkeness, hooligans, scallies etc being the cause it makes me want to weep. Even then when challenged, people still try and say that the combination of the above must have contributed in some way. It's really very simple - the police lost control of a crowd. It was a warm, sunny day, the LFC fans I saw were happy and relaxed - a higher proportion of kids and women seemed to be about. Anyway, it was a long time ago and some bits are clear to me as if they happened yesterday but some a little fuzzy now

Obviously what happened that day has been well documented and now the truth is emerging after 23 years - however there's a few things that still need to happen and I'm not talking about the criminal proceedings piece. This thread is a perfect example of how the smears, cover up and constant lies are now so ingrained in the public mindset that Hillsborough equates drunken, dodgy scousers. This mindset needs to repeatedly challenged time and time again until yesterday's report is almost remembered word for word. I never thought I'd agree with a Tory PM but Cameron was spot on - the report is black and white. Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster

The only positive I can take from that day is that I was in Liverpool in the immediate aftermath and what I witnessed the local community doing in coming together was magical to witness. I was proud to stand among them then and I'm equally proud when I go back to visit the city now - I've no real connection with place but when I think of what I witnessed in 1989 in Sheffield and afterwards in Liverpool and what I've watched the families achieve without much support I wish I was scouse not english

Great post.


Can't help seeing many parallels between Hillsborough and Bloody Sunday.

walkingbootweather

This was clearly a terrible tragedy and the behaviour of the Authorities and some of the media was disgusting. However can you help me understand one aspect of this terrible chapter in our history. I'm not trying to make any points, just trying to get my head around what happened.

Simply put, how did so many people get crushed? Were more tickets sold than there was room to accommodate? Did anyone without a ticket gain entry? We now know that the Police ordered the opening of the turnstile, but were people driven in or was it their desire not to miss the game that made them push forward?