Hillsborough Report

Paulie W

The level of cover up and the barefaced lies perpetrated by the police, politicians and others that this report has revealed is pretty astonishing.

That it's taken 23 years to come fully to light is even more so.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... apologises

Daz555

Posted in error.

gtvlusso

Daz555 wrote:

In summary. A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats and turned up at the ground and the police failed to deal with it.

Yup - agreed.

I am terribly sorry that people lost their lives - but the root cause does go back to; A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats. And as much as the question will hurt; Should the EME services have had to deal with that in the first place?

Well - the fact is that they did not handle the situation, root cause or not. So, good that an apology is forthcoming. Wonder where this tragedy goes from here?

Kieran_Burns

gtvlusso wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

In summary. A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats and turned up at the ground and the police failed to deal with it.

Yup - agreed.

I am terribly sorry that people lost their lives - but the root cause does go back to; A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats. And as much as the question will hurt; Should the EME services have had to deal with that in the first place?

I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

The panel concluded that the main cause of the Hillsborough disaster was a "failure in police control" but also revealed "multiple failures" within other organisations that compromised crowd safety. It underlined the "clear operational failure" that led to the disaster and the attempts by South Yorkshire police (SYP) and the ambulance service to cover up their shortcomings. The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the South Yorkshire chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them

The panel found that close analysis of the documents demonstrated that the weight placed on blood alcohol levels was inappropriate, fuelling "persistent and unsustainable assertions about drunken fan behaviour not supported by evidence of moderate patterns of drinking unremarkable for a leisure event."

gtvlusso

Kieran_Burns wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

In summary. A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats and turned up at the ground and the police failed to deal with it.

Yup - agreed.

I am terribly sorry that people lost their lives - but the root cause does go back to; A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats. And as much as the question will hurt; Should the EME services have had to deal with that in the first place?

I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

The panel concluded that the main cause of the Hillsborough disaster was a "failure in police control" but also revealed "multiple failures" within other organisations that compromised crowd safety. It underlined the "clear operational failure" that led to the disaster and the attempts by South Yorkshire police (SYP) and the ambulance service to cover up their shortcomings. The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the South Yorkshire chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them

Must admit that I am still reading the full statement/report.....so, open apology as the post is incorrect. However, my impression based on what I read previously and ongoing did lead me to that conclusion.....

Paulie W

deleted

Paulie W

gtvlusso wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

In summary. A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats and turned up at the ground and the police failed to deal with it.

Yup - agreed.

I am terribly sorry that people lost their lives - but the root cause does go back to; A load of pissed-up late/ticketless twats. And as much as the question will hurt; Should the EME services have had to deal with that in the first place?

I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

The panel concluded that the main cause of the Hillsborough disaster was a "failure in police control" but also revealed "multiple failures" within other organisations that compromised crowd safety. It underlined the "clear operational failure" that led to the disaster and the attempts by South Yorkshire police (SYP) and the ambulance service to cover up their shortcomings. The fact that the ambulance service also altered statements from staff is revealed for the first time. The evidence shows "conclusively" that Liverpool fans "neither caused nor contributed to the deaths" and shows the extent to which attempts, endorsed by the South Yorkshire chief constable Peter Wright, were made to smear them

Must admit that I am still reading the full statement/report.....so, open apology as the post is incorrect. However, my impression based on what I read previously and ongoing did lead me to that conclusion.....

That's kind of the point of the whole report - that your impression has been managed by the South Yorkshire Police and others through the press with the support of the local MP.

Kieran_Burns

GTV - thanks for apologising. Unfortunately the massive smear campaign that was orchestrated by the people responsible has caught many people out.

I have family in Liverpool and I know from their comments (and their friends) how wrong the authorities were. I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief at the truth now coming out.

gtvlusso

Paulie W wrote:

That's kind of the point of the whole report - that your impression has been managed by the South Yorkshire Police and others through the press with the support of the local MP.

Yes - exactly - I was reading back through some of it and I got the wrong message and had not read the report. So, once again, I am clearly incorrect in my statement and I was corrected by another user.

Open Apology to all.

Paulie W

No problem - post overlap.

gtvlusso

As I feel very strongly about poor etiquette and poor analysis on my behalf, I have reported myself to the Mods.

Hilsborough is not a subject for conjecture or debate; a report has been made with damning evidence and rightly exonerating the innocent parties.

As such, I will learn to read further before posting and have reported myself.

Hopefully this closes the matter.

keyser__soze

The fact that so many people mistakenly spout the same mis-truths blaming the fans, even on a day like today, just shows how effective the cover-up and black propaganda was.

clarkey cat

Hopefully now those responsible for the cover up and smear campaign can be brought to justice.

dodgy

gtvlusso wrote:

As I feel very strongly about poor etiquette and poor analysis on my behalf, I have reported myself to the Mods.

Hilsborough is not a subject for conjecture or debate; a report has been made with damning evidence and rightly exonerating the innocent parties.

As such, I will learn to read further before posting and have reported myself.

Hopefully this closes the matter.

I'm impressed, appalled by your original post which you've left up, but impressed at such a frank admission of error.

But this is the crux of the entire thing, even now (reading around on forums) there are lots of people openly insulting people from Liverpool (you're all thugs, thieves, scum, "watch your wallets" etc), but they're just puppets of the cover up. They've fallen right into the orchestrated trap, just what South Yorks police wanted.

So again, I'm impressed, thanks.

Vitessetortoise

The fact that so many people mistakenly spout the same mis-truths blaming the fans, even on a day like today, just shows how effective the cover-up and black propaganda was.

Plenty still happy to believe it. Football fans aren't they, of course they're

pissed-up late/ticketless twats

My mind boggles that anyone can be so fekkin ignorant to still think this. The people I knew who were there are none of these things. Makes me shake with anger.

gtvlusso

dodgy wrote:

I'm impressed, appalled by your original post which you've left up, but impressed at such a frank admission of error.

But this is the crux of the entire thing, even now (reading around on forums) there are lots of people openly insulting people from Liverpool (you're all thugs, thieves, scum, "watch your wallets" etc), but they're just puppets of the cover up. They've fallen right into the orchestrated trap, just what South Yorks police wanted.

Stereotypes will always exist; Football=drunkeness and hooliganism.

Unfortunately, on re-reading the media coverage, as I did not fully remember the event, I too was lulled into what seems to be a complete sham - I stand very corrected and hope that some people take some solace from the findings and Davey C's apology.

keyser__soze

From http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 2/page10a/

The panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying.

bails87

dodgy wrote:

I'm impressed, appalled by your original post which you've left up, but impressed at such a frank admission of error.

+1

Not so by the poster who you quoted.

It's scary how much trust we (even subconciously) place in those who report the news, and in those who have a vested interest in pushing one version of the truth over another. My dad, for example, still thinks Jean Charles De Menezes was wearing a big coat and a backpack and jumped the ticket barriers while being chased by police. But it was all lies created by the police to make themselves look good which were helpfully spread as the truth by their mates at The Sun. Plus ca change....

As already said, hopefully there'll be a proper inquiry/inquest, the High Court can apparently decide to rerun the previous ones.

From what I picked up earlier as bits of the report were coming out, there were never more than the 'ticketed' number of liverpool fans in their end. It's just that they were badly controlled and were all let into one place rather than spread out. Also, as has been established from the censored/deleted police reports, the fans were widely praised by officers on the ground for helping the injured. It was after the event that these reports were edited to paint the fans rather than the police as the ones responsible.

Kieran_Burns

There's a weird dichotomy being shown here.

GTV makes a mistake, realises it, admits it, leaves up for view and apologises

South Yorkshire authorities make a mistake, realise it, cover it up and blames everyone else.

I know who I have respect for.

bails87

KB: Agreed, to believe something when the government, police, courts, inquests and newspapers are saying it is one thing. To believe something when your own officers as well as paramedics and fans are saying the exact opposite is another.

gtvlusso

okay - I have *actually* read some more...my post was fecking stupid.

Heads should roll.....mine too.

I'll get my coat.

Daz555

Sorry people have quoted me on this thread - I deleted my comments almost as soon as I posted them.

When I took my head out of my censored , this is what I intended to say:

There is no doubt that those killed were entirely innocent.
There is no doubt that the police failed to cope with the crowds.
There is no doubt there was a cover up.
And I'm sorry, but there is no doubt that late and ticketless fans contributed to the evolution of events on that horrible day - to a lesser or greater extent.

There is of course one ultimate truth here:

From the moment the fences went up in a poorly judged response to the problems caused by the hooligan scum, it was inevitable that eventually there would be a horrible crushing incident. Football hooligans killed every man, woman and child on the Hilsborough terraces - maybe on that day but certainly in the years leading to it. Shame on every single one of them.

waddlie

Just finished reading the report summary. Blood was starting to boil by the end of the first page.

While he's at it, perhaps GTV could also apologise for smearing the poor lady in Wales who had the temerity to take a right turn and in the process lost four members of her family?

airbag

Kieran_Burns wrote:

There's a weird dichotomy being shown here.

GTV makes a mistake, realises it, admits it, leaves up for view and apologises

South Yorkshire authorities make a mistake, realise it, cover it up and blames everyone else.

I know who I have respect for.

Well said.

jejv

Harry Arnold about Kelvin MacKenzie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19517624

Arnold's claimed shock at MacKenzie's behaviour is uncredible.

That's what tabloid editors are like. It's not as if Arnold just met MacKenzie.

Daz555

jejv wrote:

Harry Arnold about Kelvin MacKenzie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19517624

Arnold's claimed shock at MacKenzie's behaviour is uncredible.

That's what tabloid editors are like. It's not as if Arnold just met MacKenzie.

I understand that MacKenzie has finally apologised. Too little too late I'm quite sure for those involved.

dodgy

Daz555 wrote:

From the moment the fences went up in a poorly judged response to the problems caused by the hooligan scum, it was inevitable that eventually there would be a horrible crushing incident. Football hooligans killed every man, woman and child on the Hilsborough terraces - maybe on that day but certainly in the years leading to it. Shame on every single one of them.

I still think you're way off the mark, even though this is your new and improved response to the thread. You're still clinging to some desire to see the fans take the heat.

This thread is about almost all of the blame being apportioned to the fans, including those who died. Which is completely and utterly beyond contempt.

Daz555

dodgy wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

From the moment the fences went up in a poorly judged response to the problems caused by the hooligan scum, it was inevitable that eventually there would be a horrible crushing incident. Football hooligans killed every man, woman and child on the Hilsborough terraces - maybe on that day but certainly in the years leading to it. Shame on every single one of them.

I still think you're way off the mark, even though this is your new and improved response to the thread. You're still clinging to some desire to see the fans take the heat.

This thread is about almost all of the blame being apportioned to the fans, including those who died. Which is completely and utterly beyond contempt.

Not at all. The design of football terraces at the time was a disgrace - and the tacking on of horrific fences to the terraces was criminally negligent - a disgrace. Today's release makes statements to that effect - tunnels, turnstiles, gates, barriers and of course the fences.

I am trying to make some sort of comment on the culture at the time - why did the authorities treat footballs fans like animals? It was because a large minority behaved like animals for years.

I apologised for my first pathetic reactionary comment and retracted it but I make no apology for my belief that the hooligan scum of the 70s and 80s at every club in the land have blood on their hands over this whole sorry affair. What angers me is that many of these guys regard themselves as heroes even to this day.

I also want to see every single liar involved in this cover up brought before court and charged. They have inflicted incalculable pain for years and years upon the families and friends of those involved.

gtvlusso

Waddlie wrote:

While he's at it, perhaps GTV could also apologise for smearing the poor lady in Wales who had the temerity to take a right turn and in the process lost four members of her family?

Perhaps you could point out where I have smeared Mrs Griffiths: viewtopic.php?f=40012&t=12876311

Or are you just out to lay a boot in a bit? It's the kind of thing that a real censored would do.

If you have nothing of value to add to the topic, suggest you leave the thread alone.

mybreakfastconsisted

BBC RADIO SHEFFIELD: Former MP Irvine Patnick refuses to answer his Sheffield home door, despite looking at us through window..

The venal scum that dripped poison in McKenzie's ear.

The cops allowed children to die, stole their blood to find alcohol, then lied to the press and politicians and tried to blame the children for their own deaths.

http://twitter.com/prodnose/status/245860519645433856

bails87

Daz555 wrote:

jejv wrote:

Harry Arnold about Kelvin MacKenzie

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19517624

Arnold's claimed shock at MacKenzie's behaviour is uncredible.

That's what tabloid editors are like. It's not as if Arnold just met MacKenzie.

I understand that MacKenzie has finally apologised. Too little too late I'm quite sure for those involved.

It sounded more like "it wasn't my fault, I was told that they're all criminal scum who molested the dead so I printed it. It's not my job to check facts."

He's previously said he wasn't sorry, even when he knew some of it was untrue, then he said a Liverpool journo gave him the story, now it's a Sheffield news agency.....

Someone once said there are only two types of Sun editor, those who are already in jail, and those who should be.