2 Dopers come 1st / 2nd in a race in Spain
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oldwelshman wrote:
How did Brad win by default? Because a doper was banned? Or becaus ethe super TTer Shrek was injured? Best rider won the TFD at this time. The two mentioned shoukld not retire, they should not have been allowed back, all dopers should have life ban otherwise it is always a risk some will take.Crankbrother wrote:I'd rather watch a bunch of dopers ride an exciting race than Brad and Ryder win by default ...
I'm now (against my initial thoughts) hoping that Bertie doesn't get embroiled in the Bruyneel/LA saga ... Racing was pretty guff this year 'til he showed up ... He made everyone race again ...
I agree completely, just look at all those countries with capital punishment and how they have no murders.
Remember the war on drugs, too? Now there are no drugs!"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Valverde was never a Tour contender ... Different race, different part of the season ...
Re. The ex-dopers coming good ... They were always good, just that they had to dope to compete ... When they don't win now it's not a sign that tney had to dope ... It's a sign that they aren't doping while those around them are taking chances on that final big win ... Look at some of tne GT contenders recently (especially the Giro and Vuelta) ... Hardly fills you with confidence ...0 -
Convicted dopers have paid some sort of price and probably worse have been found out. It is fine to be disgusted at them, if you believe that everyone else that hasn't tested positive is innocent.
I am am not that optimistic. Convicted dopers have more to lose than those that have managed to duck the radar.0 -
Sometimes a blood-bag is just a blood-bag.[/quote]
ok 1st time for a smiley
Reckon cigars are better....0 -
It was a sad day for anyone who believes that sport should be played out by those who grasp the concepts of fair play, honour and integrity. (and a good day only for those who dont give a sh1t about those concepts)0
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Crankbrother wrote:Valverde was never a Tour contender ... Different race, different part of the season ...
Re. The ex-dopers coming good ... They were always good, just that they had to dope to compete ... When they don't win now it's not a sign that tney had to dope ... It's a sign that they aren't doping while those around them are taking chances on that final big win ... Look at some of tne GT contenders recently (especially the Giro and Vuelta) ... Hardly fills you with confidence ...
"Confidence"?!
You should be ripped to the tits on "confidence": you're going to get what you yearn for as you'dCrankbrother wrote:rather watch a bunch of dopers ride an exciting race than Brad and Ryder win by default ...0 -
Pross wrote:They've served their bans (sort of) so why should they retire? It's been a great race and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for now. Would have rather seen J Rod win though.
A great victory for Spanish beef.
'I started with nothing and still have most of it left.'0 -
r0bh wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Yes. I've been distinctly unimpressed by the blatant hypocrisy of people who would lynch Armstrong or Bruyneel, spent most of the TdF questioning whether Wiggins was clean and then collectively jizzed their pants at Contador and Valverde.
It's almost as if they don't give a flying f*** about doping, but will happily use it to beat riders they don't like round the head with...
^ This.
+2. Dopers are the lowest form of cheating scum.'I started with nothing and still have most of it left.'0 -
I feel really sorry for your decision, I too do not want drug cheats to win races, but you have missed one of the best races in a long long time. The action was exciting and lets face it, if the cyclists were disguised and you did not know who was who you would still be able to decide what was an exciting race.twotyred wrote:I support 2nd chance for those caught doping, but I won't give them the benefit of the doubt if they don't even have the grace to admit they were caught bang to rights, let alone apologise for it.
+1 I stopped watching the Vuelta when Steak-Boy took the lead. His continued presence is leaving a stain on the sport.
I just prefer not to cheer on a drug cheat, or applaud their success, but I will still enjoy the battle on the road0 -
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liquor box wrote:
Blimey, makes you wonder why they had to dope! :roll:0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Until we see those you can't really comment.
Welcome to the Pro race section Rick. New around here?
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greasedscotsman wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Until we see those you can't really comment.
Welcome to the Pro race section Rick. New around here?
Alright, alright. Bloody hell. Inky's on my case now you too!
*fumbles around looking for his mod hammer*.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone got some respectable wattage figures?
Until we see those you can't really comment.
The only thing I've seen is Vaughters saying that Talansky manage 5.9w/kg for one of the climbs won by J-Rod. I think he estimated J-Rod at 6.1w/kg based on Talansky's data. Can't recall the length of the climb but Vaughters seemed to think it was all within the realms of what is realistically achievable paniagua.0 -
Twas a good race. Pity that it was two convicted dopers 1st and 2nd. Regardless of whether they are still doping, its sad to see cheats prosper. I think anybody deserves the benefit of the doubt, although I really would appreciate some acknowledgment by said riders that they have been less than honest in the past.0
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I'd rather watch a dull, clean race than an exciting, dirty one.
Because the alternative is exactly the sort of attitude that the cheats need in order to survive - and prosper.
If a sport has to be rotten to the core in order to provide entertainment, perhaps it's time to draw a line under that sport and move on to something else entirely.
Fortunately I think that cycling has started to address its demons and the sport's self-destruction can be avoided.
But deliverance should never depend upon the participation of drug cheats making the spectacle "better".They use their cars as shopping baskets; they use their cars as overcoats.0 -
Vaughters retweets a lot of this guy who posts regular info https://twitter.com/ammattipyorailyDeadCalm wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone got some respectable wattage figures?
Until we see those you can't really comment.
The only thing I've seen is Vaughters saying that Talansky manage 5.9w/kg for one of the climbs won by J-Rod. I think he estimated J-Rod at 6.1w/kg based on Talansky's data. Can't recall the length of the climb but Vaughters seemed to think it was all within the realms of what is realistically achievable paniagua.
For example.vetooo @ammattipyoraily
Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Rodriguez 13:12, 14.09 Kph, VAM 1691 m/h, 5.7 W/kg (57 kg) (poor road surface). #vuelta20120 -
excuse me for being thick here but wouldnt it be as interesting but in a slightly different way? slower perhaps but not that much. athletics is not the worse because the women havent caught up with the doped records of the 80s. Energy conservation would be much more important and add another tactical edge. Knowing you can go superhuman, get up and do it all again the next day and so can everyone else is pretty boring IMO. TDF was only dull because the stages often made it so and Sky were so dominant but it doesnt have to be like that on a level playing field. TOB seemed to me to be exciting enough yesterday for anybody...0
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If the few stages of the TDF that featured mountains had some drug fueled rider repeatedly trying to go off the front of the SKY Train then Sky would have had to chase, unfortunately this is not physically possible so they knew they could just ease back up and take control again. Imagine if when Evans attacked with Van Garteran up the road he loaded to the eyeballs like Pantani (might have or not have been like this) was in some stages. Evans could have forced SKY to go after him.Mikey23 wrote:excuse me for being thick here but wouldnt it be as interesting but in a slightly different way? slower perhaps but not that much. athletics is not the worse because the women havent caught up with the doped records of the 80s. Energy conservation would be much more important and add another tactical edge. Knowing you can go superhuman, get up and do it all again the next day and so can everyone else is pretty boring IMO. TDF was only dull because the stages often made it so and Sky were so dominant but it doesnt have to be like that on a level playing field. TOB seemed to me to be exciting enough yesterday for anybody...
Looking at the Vuelta this year I was still concerned that there was still a lot of Spanish Steak being eaten. When you look at the thread with video links of proven drug users performances there seem to be a lot of efforts that match Contadors from this 2012 edition. If this years performance was 5 years ago I think it would generally be used to show that drugs enable you to attack when others cant and in conditions that you normally would not excel in. Luckily we know that Contador is now clean
and so we know that this is the rider he has always been so his past performances must have been clean too....dont we? 0 -
Slim Boy Fat wrote:Vaughters retweets a lot of this guy who posts regular info https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily
For example.vetooo @ammattipyoraily
Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Rodriguez 13:12, 14.09 Kph, VAM 1691 m/h, 5.7 W/kg (57 kg) (poor road surface). #vuelta2012
Thanks. I've followed him.
Some interesting tweets that caught my eye:
vetooo @ammattipyoraily
Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Joaquim Rodriguez was 53 sec faster that Vincenzo Nibali (2010). Purito 13:12, Nibali 14:05.
Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Rodriguez 13:12, Valverde 13:37, Contador 13:56, Moreno 13:56, Talansky 14:15, Mentshov 14:30.
Obviously, the conditions in 2010 could have been very different.0 -
You boys are just jealous.
I'd like to congratulate Contador on his return from serving a doping suspension after his positive test at the 2010 Tour de France and commiserate that his WorldTour points will not count towards the team’s points tally when the UCI asses their criteria for next season’s ProTeam license.
The UCI has already informed the Spaniard and his team that his WorldTour points will not contribute to the team’s total for the 2012 or 2013 season. Considering the team was last, sitting in 18th place, in the UCI’s standings earlier in the year, Contador’s points are vital for the team to continue in the top league for the coming seasons.
In short, not allowing Contador's points to contribute to his team is the UCI's legacy, suggesting to Contador that no one believed the bullshit story of contaminated meat and he needs until 2013 to get the effects of the dope out of his body. Contador reacted initially by crying before having a bright green piss to show everyone he was clean.'I started with nothing and still have most of it left.'0 -
Personally, I think clean cycling is a lot more entertaining than doped up cycling, but that comes down to personal opinion of which races are clean or not. Essentially, the 80s were better than the 90s/00s with the exception of a few winners who most consider to be clean.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:
*fumbles around looking for his mod hammer*.
Can't find your hammer, but found these maracas instead...
Apparently, there are instructions on the back.0 -
OK, the race had two convicted dopers (neither of which have admitted doping) in the first two places. However, there's nothing to say they are still doping and let's face it there are probably plenty of races in a season where the first two are doping and never been caught (up until recent years I would suggest most of the top 10 were in that position in the GTs). So the choices seem to be:-
1. Enjoy the racing in the full knowledge that the winner / podium may be dopers.
2. Wash your hands of the sport altogether because you can't trust anything you see.
3. Bury your head in the sand and be hypocritical by only condeming those races won by riders with past doping convictions whilst continuing to enjoy other races.
For me, as long as there is nothing as glaringly obvious as the races featured in the "Best examples of the bad old days" thread I'll just enjoy the racing for what it is. That doesn't mean I'm being naiive and there are plenty of riders I'm still suspicious of but I do genuinely feel things are cleaner than they have been since I started watching pro cycling. I sort of took the second option for a while in the early 2000s although there were other factors that were at play but I missed the sport and enjoy my viewing again now.0 -
I would not mind so much if about these ex-dopers winning if they had been punished effectively to start with. Look at that cheating scum Bertie - he's had his wrist slapped at most. Pathetic.
I'd lifetime ban every single doper with one exception - they get to ride again if they can bring evidence to the table about those who knew about their doping and those who aided them in their doping, and of course other dopers.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
Pross wrote:1. Enjoy the racing in the full knowledge that the winner / podium may be dopers.
2. Wash your hands of the sport altogether because you can't trust anything you see.
3. Bury your head in the sand and be hypocritical by only condeming those races won by riders with past doping convictions whilst continuing to enjoy other races.
That's a bit all or nothing, isn't it?
If I think there's a decent chance it's clean then I'll watch and enjoy. If I think it's probably dirty then I'll turn it off.
For the record, I thought Contador was dirty before he tested positive (AC blood bags in Puerto he refused DNA test for, some very dodgy company, some extraterrestrial performances) and didn't enjoy his wins.
I like to give riders the benefit of the doubt, mostly, but I don't enjoy wins by riders/teams I'm suspicious of, or unrepentant dopers (who don't deserve the benefit of the doubt).
And yes, that does mean I often turn it off. But compared to 12 years or so of not watching any racing at all (Festina to Floyd's letter) that's quite a large improvement. There are grounds for optimism.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Likw someone said somewhere (not sure which thread)....................how many positives (dope tests that is) of Spanish riders have there ever been in the Vuelta.............answers on a blanl postcard to Pat Mctwat c/o UCI (eye-to-eye depending on how much money you give us) - Switzerland0
