Lance Armstrong gets life ban,loses 7 TDF,confesses he doped

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Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    I'm always surprised when folks are so sure about Wiggins ... He has been on 3 teams with a plethora of doping sanctions to their name
    No he hasn't. The only person who did anything on a team he was on was Cristian Moreni at Cofidis.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95 wrote:
    I'm always surprised when folks are so sure about Wiggins ... He has been on 3 teams with a plethora of doping sanctions to their name
    No he hasn't. The only person who did anything on a team he was on was Cristian Moreni at Cofidis.

    Cofidis (doping sanctions), T-Mobile (doping sanctions/post career confessions), Garmin (read this thread for details) ...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Cofidis (doping sanctions), T-Mobile (doping sanctions/post career confessions), Garmin (read this thread for details) ...
    Cofidis - just Moreni. They had a massive clear out after the Millar/Gaumont era.
    T-Mobile. He never rode for T-Mobile. Columbia, yes. But as above - a very different team after a big clear out.
    Garmin - sanctions due to activities before they got to Garmin.

    Of all his teammates over a dozen years, maybe a few hundred people, only Moreni has been found to have doped whilst on that team.

    You seek to condemn him by the guilt by association route, but his associations are as clean as any rider over 30.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    I've just opened an eye from my winter slumber to state the obvious in case anyones' going soft: LA was not simply 'one of the others' he was the instigator, a classless bully who threatened and intimidated anyone who challenged him etc.. etc.. and yet he sees himself as being a victim. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    The below article confirms what the Radio5 chat guests were saying, he is delusional, he can't accept that he has been judged and found guilty and punished accordingly.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... ating.html

    As I've said before, I have some very, very good ironman athlete friends down in Houston Tx who categorically state they DO NOT WANT him racing in their sport because he would only bring negative publicity to what is a 'clean' sport.

    LA: Go away, you're tarnished history.

    Back to sleep.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • Anybody else think it's starting to take its toll on LA? I thought he was starting to look quite old in those Daily Mail pictures.

    Emma on the other hand...mmmh!
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    rayjay, more facts for you to ignore:

    From Usada reasoned decision, Armstrong was charged with:
    (1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO,
    blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
    (2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood
    transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers
    and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices),
    testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
    (3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and/or corticosteroids.
    (4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone,
    and/or cortisone.
    (5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity
    involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule
    violations.
    (6) Aggravating circumstances (including multiple rule violations and participated in a
    sophisticated scheme and conspiracy to dope, encourage and assist others to dope and
    cover up rule violations) justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the standard
    sanction.

    Yes, that's more than the riders who confessed, gave evidence and got much lighter bans.

    You might want to read P146-153 of the reasoned decision. They talk about his perjury & intimidation. These could be used as evidence that Tygart gave a longer ban because he didn't like Lance's persona :)

    http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf

    If you look at one of my previous posts you will see that I already have posted Armstrong's charges just you like you just have .Did you cut and paste my old post? :lol:
    As for facts, it wasn't me who thought Hincapie never got busted :lol:
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    RichN95 wrote:
    Cofidis (doping sanctions), T-Mobile (doping sanctions/post career confessions), Garmin (read this thread for details) ...
    Cofidis - just Moreni. They had a massive clear out after the Millar/Gaumont era.
    T-Mobile. He never rode for T-Mobile. Columbia, yes. But as above - a very different team after a big clear out.
    Garmin - sanctions due to activities before they got to Garmin.

    Of all his teammates over a dozen years, maybe a few hundred people, only Moreni has been found to have doped whilst on that team.

    You seek to condemn him by the guilt by association route, but his associations are as clean as any rider over 30.

    But he has rode with a lot of riders who have been busted. But saying that there is not really any team you can ride for that does not have some sort of doping connection. If you agree with Deejay's logic then you would have to say WIggo his doping.
  • rayjay wrote:
    rayjay, more facts for you to ignore:

    From Usada reasoned decision, Armstrong was charged with:
    (1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO,
    blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
    (2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood
    transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers
    and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices),
    testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
    (3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and/or corticosteroids.
    (4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone,
    and/or cortisone.
    (5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity
    involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule
    violations.
    (6) Aggravating circumstances (including multiple rule violations and participated in a
    sophisticated scheme and conspiracy to dope, encourage and assist others to dope and
    cover up rule violations) justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the standard
    sanction.

    Yes, that's more than the riders who confessed, gave evidence and got much lighter bans.

    You might want to read P146-153 of the reasoned decision. They talk about his perjury & intimidation. These could be used as evidence that Tygart gave a longer ban because he didn't like Lance's persona :)

    http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/ReasonedDecision.pdf

    If you look at one of my previous posts you will see that I already have posted Armstrong's charges just you like you just have .Did you cut and paste my old post? :lol:
    As for facts, it wasn't me who thought Hincapie never got busted :lol:
    So you know what he did, but you want someone with all those charges to be treated the same as someone who was just a user and confessed.

    You still have no evidence of Hincapie getting busted. Because he confessed, as all articles clearly state.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,699
    Bo Duke wrote:
    he was the instigator, a classless bully who threatened and intimidated anyone who challenged him etc.. etc.. and yet he sees himself as being a victim. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    The rest of it fine, but the bit in bold...was he? Even in Tyler Hamilton's book it seems fairly clear that it was a group decision to "join in". It's not like LA was standing in the motorhome force injecting riders with stuff. Tyler is clear that he wanted the special bags full of drugs that the top riders had.

    There is a lot of effort to blame the start of EPO/High octane doping on LA, but it was being done by italians and belgians well before any American Team got to Europe.
    Bo Duke wrote:

    Well in fairness they havent either, Jan, Josebi, Andreas or whoever have at best been notable by their silence or in the case of some, made to look utterly ridiculous by their whining about unfairly he's been treated (usually for obvious reasons in their own cases)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Anybody else think it's starting to take its toll on LA? I thought he was starting to look quite old in those Daily Mail pictures.

    Emma on the other hand...mmmh!


    You iz a bad man :wink:
  • ---
  • ddraver wrote:
    Bo Duke wrote:
    he was the instigator, a classless bully who threatened and intimidated anyone who challenged him etc.. etc.. and yet he sees himself as being a victim. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    The rest of it fine, but the bit in bold...was he? Even in Tyler Hamilton's book it seems fairly clear that it was a group decision to "join in". It's not like LA was standing in the motorhome force injecting riders with stuff. Tyler is clear that he wanted the special bags full of drugs that the top riders had.

    There is a lot of effort to blame the start of EPO/High octane doping on LA, but it was being done by italians and belgians well before any American Team got to Europe.
    Bo Duke wrote:

    Well in fairness they havent either, Jan, Josebi, Andreas or whoever have at best been notable by their silence or in the case of some, made to look utterly ridiculous by their whining about unfairly he's been treated (usually for obvious reasons in their own cases)



    Motorola was a bit different - Och and co ran that show. But when it comes to USPS and Disco, Lance was at the very minimum on a par with Bruyneel in terms of running those teams. So as a team manager (and part owner? cant be bothered to check), yes, he carries a shedload more culpability than a bog-standard rider.

    Having said that, you're right - he didnt tie any of those riders down and inject them himself. They all made their own decisions. Every single one of them had a choice.
  • RichN95 wrote:

    You seek to condemn him by the guilt by association route, but his associations are as clean as any rider over 30.

    No condemnation, just illustrating that we have as much right to be sceptical with Wiggins as with any other rider ... Because he's Brit(ish) doesn't make it a given he is beyond question ... especially given his sudden rise to stage race dominance (4th in a tour where the strongest team rode only for their 2nd best placed rider doesn't really demonstrate the level that was shown for the next 2 years ... but was indicative of year 3's performance) ...

    This thread is evidence that losing weight and focusing on stage races isn't always the golden ticket it seemed ...
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    RoadPainter ,,,Seriously funny :lol::lol::lol: I mean we all no it was not a coincidence that just after he talked he got a ban. You are going to extra ordinary lengths to show just how ignorant you are :roll: Just move on or why not go round to innocent Hincapies house and have a nice cup of tea and a custard cream :lol:
    Yes to the other question. Enjoy :)
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,699
    ddraver wrote:
    Bo Duke wrote:
    he was the instigator, a classless bully who threatened and intimidated anyone who challenged him etc.. etc.. and yet he sees himself as being a victim. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    The rest of it fine, but the bit in bold...was he? Even in Tyler Hamilton's book it seems fairly clear that it was a group decision to "join in". It's not like LA was standing in the motorhome force injecting riders with stuff. Tyler is clear that he wanted the special bags full of drugs that the top riders had.

    There is a lot of effort to blame the start of EPO/High octane doping on LA, but it was being done by italians and belgians well before any American Team got to Europe.
    Bo Duke wrote:

    Well in fairness they havent either, Jan, Josebi, Andreas or whoever have at best been notable by their silence or in the case of some, made to look utterly ridiculous by their whining about unfairly he's been treated (usually for obvious reasons in their own cases)



    Motorola was a bit different - Och and co ran that show. But when it comes to USPS and Disco, Lance was at the very minimum on a par with Bruyneel in terms of running those teams. So as a team manager (and part owner? cant be bothered to check), yes, he carries a shedload more culpability than a bog-standard rider.

    Having said that, you're right - he didnt tie any of those riders down and inject them himself. They all made their own decisions. Every single one of them had a choice.

    well fine but by the time USPS started, Motorola knew the deal about the realities of European Cycling. He may have become in charge of the team and therefore the doping, but he in no way instigated it...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RayJay, Road Painter ...

    You likely need to know the order in which they were questioned to know if Hincapie was busted or confessed ...

    I'm guessing the Garmin boys were first as a way to test the water of who was gonna talk and to what extent ... they were all likely asked if they had seen doping on their team and for specifics to back this up so as soon as the first person mentions anyone other than themselves or LA then that's that ... Named rider(s) busted ...
  • RichN95 wrote:

    You seek to condemn him by the guilt by association route, but his associations are as clean as any rider over 30.

    No condemnation, just illustrating that we have as much right to be sceptical with Wiggins as with any other rider ... Because he's Brit(ish) doesn't make it a given he is beyond question ... especially given his sudden rise to stage race dominance (4th in a tour where the strongest team rode only for their 2nd best placed rider doesn't really demonstrate the level that was shown for the next 2 years ... but was indicative of year 3's performance) ...

    This thread is evidence that losing weight and focusing on stage races isn't always the golden ticket it seemed ...


    That would be the level in 'year 2' at Sky that saw Wiggins win the Dauphine, podium at the Vuelta, podium at P-N and go into the Tour as a tip for the podium till his crash - and take Worlds TT silver?

    Yeah, right. Crank on as you always do - its your thing; put forward your scepticism - no problem.

    Its that your arguments are, as ever, so very very ill-researched.
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    “Three years ago, I was approached by U.S. federal investigators, and more recently by USADA, and asked to tell of my personal experience in these matters. I would have been much more comfortable talking only about myself, but understood that I was obligated to tell the truth about everything I knew. So that is what I did,” Hincapie said


    Cleared that one up for all to see.
  • RichN95 wrote:

    You seek to condemn him by the guilt by association route, but his associations are as clean as any rider over 30.

    No condemnation, just illustrating that we have as much right to be sceptical with Wiggins as with any other rider ... Because he's Brit(ish) doesn't make it a given he is beyond question ... especially given his sudden rise to stage race dominance (4th in a tour where the strongest team rode only for their 2nd best placed rider doesn't really demonstrate the level that was shown for the next 2 years ... but was indicative of year 3's performance) ...

    This thread is evidence that losing weight and focusing on stage races isn't always the golden ticket it seemed ...


    That would be the level in 'year 2' at Sky that saw Wiggins win the Dauphine, podium at the Vuelta, podium at P-N and go into the Tour as a tip for the podium till his crash - and take Worlds TT silver?

    Yeah, right. Crank on as you always do - its your thing; put forward your scepticism - no problem.

    Its that your arguments are, as ever, so very very ill-researched.

    Ill-researched? ... I watched nearly all those races, know the placings as far as I care to remember them ... Just as I had done for all those previous years where Wiggins was only on my TV when getting turfed from the TdF and finishing 4th in one race (and no doubt the odd something somewhere that is insignificant enough for me not to note) ...

    Here's an idea RR, ask questions and encourage dialogue rather make snide remarks about other posters ...
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ddraver wrote:
    Bo Duke wrote:
    he was the instigator, a classless bully who threatened and intimidated anyone who challenged him etc.. etc.. and yet he sees himself as being a victim. Laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    The rest of it fine, but the bit in bold...was he? Even in Tyler Hamilton's book it seems fairly clear that it was a group decision to "join in". It's not like LA was standing in the motorhome force injecting riders with stuff. Tyler is clear that he wanted the special bags full of drugs that the top riders had.

    There is a lot of effort to blame the start of EPO/High octane doping on LA, but it was being done by italians and belgians well before any American Team got to Europe.
    Bo Duke wrote:

    Well in fairness they havent either, Jan, Josebi, Andreas or whoever have at best been notable by their silence or in the case of some, made to look utterly ridiculous by their whining about unfairly he's been treated (usually for obvious reasons in their own cases)

    I read a report where a promising young rider was invited to train with USP, but was not offered a contract after chatting with Armstrong about PEDs and professing the desire to ride clean.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,699
    I'm not sure I see your point, are you saying that had he had the chat with Jan Ullrich at T-Mobile the response would have been different? Or Marco Pantani or Josebi Beolki or Michal Rasmussen?

    Cos, I think all he'd have learnt is the German, Spanish or Danish/Dutch for No as well...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Ill-researched? ... I watched nearly all those races, know the placings as far as I care to remember them ... Just as I had done for all those previous years where Wiggins was only on my TV when getting turfed from the TdF and finishing 4th in one race (and no doubt the odd something somewhere that is insignificant enough for me not to note) ...

    Here's an idea RR, ask questions and encourage dialogue rather make snide remarks about other posters ...


    Snide remarks? From the poster who accused Wiggins of a cheap publicity stunt for attending the charity memorial ride held for the dead son of good and long-standing friends of his? Irony, thy name is Crankbrother.

    The Dauphine, P-N, the Vuelta and the Worlds are all fairly significant races. Or maybe you only tune in for the Tour.

    :|
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Joelsim wrote:
    As I said, I'm no LA fanboy, but even doped up, against a whole peloton who were doing the same (obviously some to a lesser degree), those very same people who had bloodbags with Ufe, who were paying Ferrari, who had Soigneurs who were dolling it out like jelly babies, LA still came out on top 7 times in a row.

    This seems to be quite typical of how a lot of people view the doping (ok.. maybe what I'm about to say isn't exactly relative to your wording, but it could be...). There seems to be an over-simplication of what the doping was, it seems that people thing you'd just 'take this' and 'inject that' and it's all pretty casual. If it was that casual all the dopers would ever need is someone they can flash a few quid to round the back of Boots and that's it. But, that's not what happened, people like LA were paying people like Ferrari huuuuge amounts of money for their attention and expertise to get the absolute maximum advantage, either that or they were paying him expecting nothing but a supply of drugs.

    Equating LA to the likes of the berks you see in most Gyms loading up casually with no real clue what they are doing is just wrong. It is likely some cyclists approached it like this, but pre-internet these cyclists couldn't even lay their hands on information about a topic like we can now. 1 they needed an expert to tell them what to do, and 2, they needed the best expert with the best methods and knowledge they could find.

    I just think sometimes people equate it to all the dopers were doing is all crowding round the back of a car and all having one of each thing there like it was a casual picnic of drugs and then off they go and cycle 'all with the same advantage'. Not true, not true in the slightest. Of course, this is the way that LA wants to seem to paint what he was doing and everyone else was doing, who needs to pay someone like Ferrari millions in order to just do something like that?!
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    The thing that has always surprised me about Wiggins is the fact he could not win a TT until he joined Sky.
    He always fell short and was not in the same class has FC & TM. I don't understand how an Olympic track gold medallist all of a sudden starts to dominate ITT when he could not get a decent result for 10 years. I know a lot of you will say he never trained serious until he was at Sky but that looks mighty suspicious to me. When the tour had a ITT In London you thought he would have wanted to win it. Even at Garmin when he rode 4th at the tour is TT was still way short of TM and FC.
    I don't see why so many of you get so upset and angry when Wiggo or Sky are mentioned as though they are the bench mark for clean sport. After all their first year was a disaster then the second year it got really good.
    Anyone know when they hired Leinders :wink::lol:
    I bet I get called a Troll ,,,,,again :lol:
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Ill-researched? ... I watched nearly all those races, know the placings as far as I care to remember them ... Just as I had done for all those previous years where Wiggins was only on my TV when getting turfed from the TdF and finishing 4th in one race (and no doubt the odd something somewhere that is insignificant enough for me not to note) ...

    Here's an idea RR, ask questions and encourage dialogue rather make snide remarks about other posters ...


    Snide remarks? From the poster who accused Wiggins of a cheap publicity stunt for attending the charity memorial ride held for the dead son of good and long-standing friends of his? Irony, thy name is Crankbrother.

    The Dauphine, P-N, the Vuelta and the Worlds are all fairly significant races. Or maybe you only tune in for the Tour.

    :|

    Yep, and there is nothing wrong with skepticism in the slightest, but if it's going to be voiced it's best to back it up with a bit of logic or at least to just to word it as the unfounded, purely feeling based skepticism that it is (unless it's just things said for winding people up, in which case it would defeat the point :) ).
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    rayjay wrote:
    The thing that has always surprised me about Wiggins is the fact he could not win a TT until he joined Sky.
    He always fell short and was not in the same class has FC & TM. I don't understand how an Olympic track gold medallist all of a sudden starts to dominate ITT when he could not get a decent result for 10 years. I know a lot of you will say he never trained serious until he was at Sky but that looks mighty suspicious to me. When the tour had a ITT In London you thought he would have wanted to win it. Even at Garmin when he rode 4th at the tour is TT was still way short of TM and FC.
    I don't see why so many of you get so upset and angry when Wiggo or Sky are mentioned as though they are the bench mark for clean sport. After all their first year was a disaster then the second year it got really good.
    Anyone know when they hired Leinders :wink::lol:
    I bet I get called a Troll ,,,,,again :lol:

    Well, the facts are he got better at it. If drugs are the reason he got better at it then fine, is there any other reason a cyclist can get better at something? Or is it best to entertain the idea that it's drugs as default?

    Have you ever got better at anything?
  • Ill-researched? ... I watched nearly all those races, know the placings as far as I care to remember them ... Just as I had done for all those previous years where Wiggins was only on my TV when getting turfed from the TdF and finishing 4th in one race (and no doubt the odd something somewhere that is insignificant enough for me not to note) ...

    Here's an idea RR, ask questions and encourage dialogue rather make snide remarks about other posters ...


    Snide remarks? From the poster who accused Wiggins of a cheap publicity stunt for attending the charity memorial ride held for the dead son of good and long-standing friends of his? Irony, thy name is Crankbrother.

    The Dauphine, P-N, the Vuelta and the Worlds are all fairly significant races. Or maybe you only tune in for the Tour.

    :|

    Visibility in cycling events aside ...

    The 'insignificant' races/placings referred to his racing before the jump to lightspeed ...

    Luckily for me I don't 'only tune in for the Tour' ... I sometimes watch Coronation Street, which funnily enough is also a programme made up of the main players following instructions from a man off screen :wink:
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    ddraver wrote:
    I'm not sure I see your point, are you saying that had he had the chat with Jan Ullrich at T-Mobile the response would have been different? Or Marco Pantani or Josebi Beolki or Michal Rasmussen?

    Cos, I think all he'd have learnt is the German, Spanish or Danish/Dutch for No as well...

    Er...no. Someone said Armstrong was not forcing his guys to dope. Refusing to sign a guy who says he wont dope sounds pretty convincing to me.
  • MartinGT
    MartinGT Posts: 475
    deejay wrote:
    Define "Drugs" that they were all on.
    The introduction of EPO where Grupetto riders and their abilities are suddenly and by Magic turned into GT winners.

    You have just described the following;

    Wiggins
    Froome
    and a soon to be Richie Porte.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,699
    mike6 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    I'm not sure I see your point, are you saying that had he had the chat with Jan Ullrich at T-Mobile the response would have been different? Or Marco Pantani or Josebi Beolki or Michal Rasmussen?

    Cos, I think all he'd have learnt is the German, Spanish or Danish/Dutch for No as well...

    Er...no. Someone said Armstrong was not forcing his guys to dope. Refusing to sign a guy who says he wont dope sounds pretty convincing to me.

    Cycling was forcing the guys to dope, not Armstrong...if USPS had ridden clean we'd never have heard of them
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver